Can Bad Recordings sound Good?

[Summit]

Dynamics is one aspect transient speed another. DR score has no real correlation with transient speed which can be lousy on some records with very high DR IME.   

[Confused]

6 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

On my NAS, I have about 600 tracks with DR of 20 or more out of about 75000.  Less than 1%.

That's an interesting statistic.  Inspired, I checked my own digital library in Roon.  I cannot match your 600 tracks with DR 20 or more, but my percentage came out at 1.1%.

 

This surprised me, the vast majority of my listening and digital collection are very much in the genres that you would think are most impacted by the "loudness wars", the proportion of jazz, classical and similar in my collection is relatively small   So I was expecting a much lower percentage than yourself.  Maybe 1% is a typical figure irrespective?  Maybe a fluke?  (maybe you are a secret EDM fanatic?)🙂

 

It was also quite good fun looking at the kinds of things lurking in my collection with high DR's.  Mainly classical, as you might expect, but then Jimi Hendrix's Moon Turn the Tides Gently Gently Away (which is not really music) (+24), Pan Sonic's Comparative (+23 and not really music either!)  Then, topping the DR charts in my collection for non-classical & actually music, Daft Punk's Adagio for Tron. (+23), closely followed by a John Dyson ABBA decode of "happy New Year" (+23)  (well done John)  

 

Get to the +20, +21 range I have all sorts of stuff, Led Zeppelin, Moby, Divine Comedy, Doors, Kraftwerk, Bowie, Peal jam, Blur, Pendulum (!), Foo Fighters, NIN, Junkie XL, Skunk Anansie, Iron Maiden I could go on.

 

Statistics can be misleading though.  Another check on my digital library indicates that 87% of the tracks are DR=10, or below.  I might be wrong, but I am guessing your percentage would be somewhat lower by this metric?

[ssh]

Where is the Hendrix track from?

[Kal Rubinson]

The high DR tracks cross all genres but, unsurprisingly, they include a fair number of "test tracks."  OTOH, this one has tracks with DR from 1 to 38!!

 

[Kal Rubinson]

14 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I have some albums from Reference Recordings with a DR score in the twenties. They can be hard to listen to. 

I do not agree.  Since this began with a suggested Mahler movement, let me say that I have heard this particular movement live many times and the impact is tremendous and entirely thrilling.  There is no difficulty live, of course, nor on any recording I have.  On recordings, it is not even the most challenging of Mahler movements, even in that symphony, in terms of DR.

 

I had JRMC rank all my Mahler recordings by movement and DR.  The clear winner is the last movement of the 6th.  I was surprised that none of the movements with chorus and/or organ were prominent at that end of the DR listings.  That said, of the many recordings I have of the 6th, the last movement of 10 of them had DR of 18 or greater with 3 of them tied at 22!  Strangely, the recording that has the most visceral impact on me (Bernstein/VPO) has a DR of only 11.

 

However, high DR is not just loud but must also be quiet. I have chamber music with DR in the 20's.

[firedog]

35 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Strangely, the recording that has the most visceral impact on me (Bernstein/VPO) has a DR of only 11.

That's my favorite recording of the Mahler. The dynamics are stunning. That last movement can make you jump out of your seat  if you aren't prepared for it. Several years ago I heard that symphony performed live by the NHK Orchestra and the next day I auditioned the Kii Threes. I played that Mahler recording and the Kiis ability to reproduce it was a factor in my decision to buy them. 

[Kal Rubinson]

25 minutes ago, firedog said:

That's my favorite recording of the Mahler. The dynamics are stunning. That last movement can make you jump out of your seat  if you aren't prepared for it. Several years ago I heard that symphony performed live by the NHK Orchestra and the next day I auditioned the Kii Threes. I played that Mahler recording and the Kiis ability to reproduce it was a factor in my decision to buy them. 

Agreed but it is not so much the recording which is harsh and of only modest DR but what Bernstein does with it. 

 

Sorta fits well in this thread since it can be called a "bad recording" in comparison of more than a few others of this piece.  It sounds good, as music, despite that.

[bernardl]

I don't think there is a direct relationship between DR and sound quality.

 

The DR is mostly impacted by the lack of background noise (which is impacted by recording quality) on the low end and by how loud the music gets in the high end. This is strongly impacted by the type of music.

 

Sound quality is controlled by the quality of the recording equipment, the placement of the microphones, how good the venue sounds, the mastering technology, the media,...

 

Usually, the DR of records with good sound quality is pretty high, but there are cases with some quiet music, a solo guitar for instance, where low DR doesn't mean low sound quality.

 

One example of that would be Lute Works by Sylvius Leopold Weiss played by Eduardo Eguez on MA recordings. Out of this world sound quality... with a DR of 6, or Masterpiece of Folklore music by Mario Suzuki, again a DR of 6... but truly amazing sound quality.

 

It is also often believed that we need 24 bits high res music to achieve great DR, but I have many XRCD rips whose DR goes above 15 vs many 192/24 high res material with DR around 10.

 

I do monitor the DR displayed by Roon when I add a record to my collection, but I now feel I should pretty much ignore it as it can convey a negative impression of some records with low DR although the sound quality can be amazing.

 

Cheers,

Bernard

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I do not agree.  Since this began with a suggested Mahler movement, let me say that I have heard this particular movement live many times and the impact is tremendous and entirely thrilling.  There is no difficulty live, of course, nor on any recording I have.  On recordings, it is not even the most challenging of Mahler movements, even in that symphony, in terms of DR.

 

I had JRMC rank all my Mahler recordings by movement and DR.  The clear winner is the last movement of the 6th.  I was surprised that none of the movements with chorus and/or organ were prominent at that end of the DR listings.  That said, of the many recordings I have of the 6th, the last movement of 10 of them had DR of 18 or greater with 3 of them tied at 22!  Strangely, the recording that has the most visceral impact on me (Bernstein/VPO) has a DR of only 11.

 

However, high DR is not just loud but must also be quiet. I have chamber music with DR in the 20's.

Fun to listen to live but hard when one has turn turn the volume to literally 100 at home, just to hear the quietest passages, when the loudest ones hit it can disturb the entire household and neighbors. 

[AudioDoctor]

14 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Fun to listen to live but hard when one has turn turn the volume to literally 100 at home, just to hear the quietest passages, when the loudest ones hit it can disturb the entire household and neighbors. 

 

I'm still trying to figure out how to simulate the cannons in the 1812 Overture...

[Kal Rubinson]

44 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Fun to listen to live but hard when one has turn turn the volume to literally 100 at home, just to hear the quietest passages, when the loudest ones hit it can disturb the entire household and neighbors. 

FWIW, I have not gotten a complaint from my neighbors in more than a decade and I live in an apartment!   I don't do it all the time and I don't do it late in the evening (or later) but my wife is OK with it and my neighbors deal with it. 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

9 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Agreed but it is not so much the recording which is harsh and of only modest DR but what Bernstein does with it. 

 

Sorta fits well in this thread since it can be called a "bad recording" in comparison of more than a few others of this piece.  It sounds good, as music, despite that.

 

Yes, the music can still sound good but one might argue that the Bernstein version might be even better appreciated through a better recording. My contention is that recording flaws will detract from the experience in some way - a better recording will serve the music better.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Fun to listen to live but hard when one has turn turn the volume to literally 100 at home, just to hear the quietest passages, when the loudest ones hit it can disturb the entire household and neighbors. 

 

Move to a better neighborhood !🙄

 

Seriously though, I don't think we can argue that the recording is bad based on peak dynamics disturbing others. I know that is not what you are saying, it just comes across a bit that way. You could of course just listen to such pieces with headphones. Question is then, would they still be "hard to listen to" ?

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Move to a better neighborhood !🙄

 

Seriously though, I don't think we can argue that the recording is bad based on peak dynamics disturbing others. I know that is not what you are saying, it just comes across a bit that way. You could of course just listen to such pieces with headphones. Question is then, would they still be "hard to listen to" ?

If you read my words and felt they came across that way, there’s not much I can say. 

[Kal Rubinson]

4 hours ago, bernardl said:

I don't think there is a direct relationship between DR and sound quality.

I do agree.  I was merely following up on the post offering a high DR file.

12 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Yes, the music can still sound good but one might argue that the Bernstein version might be even better appreciated through a better recording.

To be sure but how can the Bernstein version be obtained in a better recording?  I'd buy it.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

 

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

If you read my words and felt they came across that way, there’s not much I can say. 

 

 

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Fun to listen to live but hard when one has turn turn the volume to literally 100 at home, just to hear the quietest passages, when the loudest ones hit it can disturb the entire household and neighbors. 

 

Well the words seem to imply (to me) that it is "fun" to listen to live, and I might infer that is good.

 

The recording/playback if realistic should also be fun/good.  I get that disturbing the neighbors is a practical issue but it is not a SQ issue to me (unless they are complaining about bad SQ).

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

3 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I do agree.  I was merely following up on the post offering a high DR file.

To be sure but how can the Bernstein version be obtained in a better recording?  I'd buy it.

 

Exactly. At the end of the day we listen to imperfect recordings and imperfect playback for the music. IMO we would be excluding about 90% (pick a figure) of music if only listening to near best recordings.

[The Computer Audiophile]

7 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

 

 

 

Well the words seem to imply (to me) that it is "fun" to listen to live, and I might infer that is good.

 

The recording/playback if realistic should also be fun/good.  I get that disturbing the neighbors is a practical issue but it is not a SQ issue to me (unless they are complaining about bad SQ).

Where did I say anything about a recording being bad or anything to do with sound quality?

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Where did I say anything about a recording being bad?

As i said, you didn't.

 

Perhaps i should have said it can be misinterpreted, and yes my error in misinterpretation. I still feel it conflates two different issues and i am only concerned here with if the recording sounds good or bad.

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

As i said, you didn't.

 

Perhaps i should have said it can be misinterpreted, and yes my error in misinterpretation. I still feel it conflates two different issues and i am only concerned here with if the recording sounds good or bad.

Reference Recordings stuff sounds fantastic to me. I just can’t hear the quietest passages while driving in the car. Thus, it’s difficult for this and other reasons to listen. 

[Kal Rubinson]

4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I just can’t hear the quietest passages while driving in the car.

Oh boy.  Is that your standard context?  I can't listen to anything in the car.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Reference Recordings stuff sounds fantastic to me. I just can’t hear the quietest passages while driving in the car. Thus, it’s difficult for this and other reasons to listen. 

 

that's an interesting point and reminds me of the old dbx compander i used to own (and used at dinner parties to make the soft passages louder).

 

Can fantastic recordings be fantastic but impractical.... and in *some* way "considered "bad" ......depending on the listening environment noise floor. I guess one of the reasons one might advocate compression is for that reason, hearing in noisy environments. I dunno

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

11 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Oh boy.  Is that your standard context?  I can't listen to anything in the car.

Oh boy, I can see I'm not a member of the club here. 

 

I listen to music every day of my life in several different contexts. Headphones, two channel main system, desktop system, car system, etc... All I said is that some really dynamic recordings can be difficult or hard to listen to. On my headphone system, the RAAL-requisite SR1a, I can turn the volume of my headphone system up to literally the maximum to hear the opening passages of Passacaglia on Reference Recordings RR-120 and then have to turn it down later in the track so I don't damage my hearing. I don't understand what's strange about this or why people are so up in arms about my comments. 

 

Headphones = hard. Car = hard. Wide dynamic range can be hard. That's it. 

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

7 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Oh boy.  Is that your standard context?  I can't listen to anything in the car.

 

Isn't that funny, in the car is one of the only places I can listen to very bad recordings.

[sandyk]

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Fun to listen to live but hard when one has turn turn the volume to literally 100 at home, just to hear the quietest passages, when the loudest ones hit it can disturb the entire household and neighbors. 

 Try it on your new headphones . 😉