New D/D Converters from Denafrips

[richard_crl032]

Oops ....

 

My hope it that I can daisy chain the Avatar and the gaia to the T+ with gaia via hdmi i2s A and the avatar via the RJ45 i2sB which are both lvds.

[vortecjr]

7 hours ago, ted_b said:

Miska (aka Jussi), among others, talks about how, in HDMi-based I2S implementations, the clock is on the wrong side; it should be using the DAC's clock.  So......with this supposed flaw I was wondering if the Gaia's I2S still outperformed it's USB (or other) connection when used with an I2S-capable DAC like the Holo.  I, personally, liked the Su-1 and its I2S connection to my Holo better than going directly to USB, but that was my own perception, and was previous to Holo using new USB boards on its DACs.  I'm wondering if the Gaia would be an upgrade in my system, using I2S.

That statement is to generalized and may not apply to all cases. What if the master clock from the LVDS i2s source is really good. What if the master clock from the LVDS i2s source is ignored and the local clock is used. What if the master clock from the LVDS i2s source is properly reclocked in the receiving unit. These cases exist in the wild so we would need to know the design of this unit. 

[Confused]

10 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

What if the master clock from the LVDS i2s source is really good. 

Is it possible for the source clock to actually improve the DAC?  Say considering an exaggerated / hypothetical scenario where the source clock is perfect and the DAC clock is poor?  I guess the clock loses some accuracy by being remote from the DAC, but an interesting case to consider in theory.

[matthias]

7 hours ago, ted_b said:

Miska (aka Jussi), among others, talks about how, in HDMi-based I2S implementations, the clock is on the wrong side; it should be using the DAC's clock.

 

Agree,

I see no reason why a HDMi-based I2S implementation should be superior to say a double reclocked USB implementation like in Aries Cerat DACs.

IMO, when a I2S implementation is superior then USB is not implemented well enough. So it is interesting to compare Gaia with Terminator Plus vs. Terminator Plus solo.

 

Matt

[alvin1118]

DENAFRIPS GAIA + Terminator-Plus configuration guide:
https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/2020/08/01/DENAFRIPS-GAIA-DDC-TERMINATOR-PLUS-DAC

 

Cheers

 

[matthias]

52 minutes ago, richard_crl032 said:

My hope it that I can daisy chain the Avatar and the gaia to the T+ with gaia via hdmi i2s A and the avatar via the RJ45 i2sB which are both lvds.

 

Hi Richard,

can you please shed some light on why the additional Gaia should provide an advantage to a direct Avatar/ TPlus connection.

Thanks

 

Matt

[richard_crl032]

4 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Agree,

I see no reason why a HDMi-based I2S implementation should be superior to say a double reclocked USB implementation like in Aries Cerat DACs.

IMO, when a I2S implementation is superior then USB is not implemented well enough. So it is interesting to compare Gaia with Terminator Plus vs. Terminator Plus solo.

 

Matt

 

Hi Matt,

 

First of all, I have no expertise on digital electronics and can only try to interpret from what I gather from googling .. pls feel free to correct me on the following:

 

- is2 and usb are the only hires dsd capable connectivity

- all key digital electronics run on i2s in its fundamental and needed form

- usb just like all other digital coaxial rca, aes, optical etc. requires added electronics to get to i2s ... complex and high quality aka expensive electronics is required at both transmitting and receiving devices to convert and tune to designer's thinking and preference

 

With that, why isn't i2s a better conduit of audio signal than usb while noting the requirement of short length ? 

 

Unfortunately, I do not have any source that does usb and is2 output for hires dsd but from my omnia S1 playing flac, I certainly prefers its i2s to coaxial RCA.

 

My apology on not understanding what is double reclocking usb.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

 

[Abyss Man]

A very good USB implementation is very hard to do with the given real estate in a DAC, and anyways, if it can be done the cost of that DAC would be very expensive, Innous Statement, Taiko Extreme comes to mind. I Guess a 2-box solution is a cost effective solution for those who want to go closer to the pinnacle and have a choice of adding a box to achieve that, and for those who are happy with just the TP, which btw is seriously good can just stay put and enjoy it. Well, that’s my take. Cheers.

[matthias]

1 minute ago, richard_crl032 said:

 

Hi Matt,

 

First of all, I have no expertise on digital electronics and can only try to interpret from what I gather from googling .. pls feel free to correct me on the following:

 

- is2 and usb are the only hires dsd capable connectivity

- all key digital electronics run on i2s in its fundamental and needed form

- usb just like all other digital coaxial rca, aes, optical etc. requires added electronics to get to i2s ... complex and high quality aka expensive electronics is required at both transmitting and receiving devices to convert and tune to designer's thinking and preference

 

With that, why isn't i2s a better conduit of audio signal than usb while noting the requirement of short length ? 

 

Unfortunately, I do not have any source that does usb and is2 output for hires dsd but from my omnia S1 playing flac, I certainly prefers its i2s to coaxial RCA.

 

My apology on not understanding what is double reclocking usb.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

 

 

Richard,

 

I am talking about the context an USB output signal from a server and USB input of a DAC. So what is the sense of an additional I2S device?

 

Matt

[R1200CL]

8 minutes ago, alvin1118 said:

DENAFRIPS GAIA

 

Alvin

 

Is it the same clock in use for all outputs on both Gaia and Iris ?

(I understand those has different clocks). 

[richard_crl032]

6 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Hi Richard,

can you please shed some light on why the additional Gaia should provide an advantage to a direct Avatar/ TPlus connection.

Thanks

 

Matt

 

Hey Matt,

 

Sorry for the confusion but I really only hope for the coaxial aes output from my Bel Canto fm tuner and hence my interest in the gaia.

 

I hope that having synced transfer from gaia to T+ via its sealed ocxo clock as well as i2s connectivity will better direct connection of Bel Canto fm tuner's aes to the T+.

 

I am in doubt too that there is any benefit to connect the usb output from my Antipodes ex to the gaia with added path instead of directly to the T+ and hence raised the request for him to review before I can get my hands on the demo gaia 

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

[matthias]

10 minutes ago, Abyss Man said:

A very good USB implementation is very hard to do with the given real estate in a DAC, and anyways, if it can be done the cost of that DAC would be very expensive, Innous Statement, Taiko Extreme comes to mind. I Guess a 2-box solution is a cost effective solution for those who want to go closer to the pinnacle and have a choice of adding a box to achieve that, and for those who are happy with just the TP, which btw is seriously good can just stay put and enjoy it. Well, that’s my take. Cheers.

 

First, Innuous Statement and Taiko Extreme are servers not DACs.

Second, please explain the reason of an additional I2S device when you have USB out from the server and USB in to the DAC.

Thanks

 

Matt

[R1200CL]

35 minutes ago, matthias said:

So it is interesting to compare Gaia with Terminator Plus vs. Terminator Plus solo.

Not only that. It should be tested with different in and outputs in use. In addition the Gaia, should be tested with and without clocks from Terminator Plus. 
 

The present review doesn’t help me much as I’m interested in a DDC that has USB in and AES/EBU out. 
So in general not the I2S part of a DDC.

 

[richard_crl032]

26 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Richard,

 

I am talking about the context an USB output signal from a server and USB input of a DAC. So what is the sense of an additional I2S device?

 

Matt

 

Hi Matt,

 

Aaah .. got it.

 

Then same thinking and doubt .. adding another component of gaia, another wire regardless i2s and synced or not does not seem like a plausible strategy for improvement for usb.  Moreover, I expect all treatment of flagship T+ to better the gaia and sealed ocxo instead of exposed ones seen points the same ... hence provision for T+'s ocxo clock as master.

 

My wish as mentioned in earlier post is on coaxial output from my Bel Canto fm tuner as I use it 90% of the time.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[Abyss Man]

2 hours ago, matthias said:

 

First, Innuous Statement and Taiko Extreme are servers not DACs.

Second, please explain the reason of an additional I2S device when you have USB out from the server and USB in to the DAC.

Thanks

 

Matt

Hi Matt,

I’m well aware of the difference between a DAC and a server, having said that, the theory behind the implementation of the USB is the same isn’t it? You can either invest in a TOTL server to clean up the USB or you can do it via the DDC, end of the day it’s about getting the cleanest signal possible. U are free to choose your poison of choice. 

[Abyss Man]

Hi Matt,

I forgot to mention that you can also use a USB regenerator like the Phoenix, txusb  ultra and so on to clean the signal as well. I do have a Txusb ultra which is also master clocked and yet got myself a Gaia. As I said, everyone is free to choose their own poison and if it makes a difference or gives a bump in SQ, fine and well. I listen to a piece of gear and if I find it gives me sonic satisfaction, then I buy it. It’s that easy for me. My ears, and only mine matter. I am of course very thankful to all the seniors and gurus here who have been very patient with my PMs with regards to queries or doubts that I have. Thank you.

[richard_crl032]

7 hours ago, Abyss Man said:

Hi Matt,

I forgot to mention that you can also use a USB regenerator like the Phoenix, txusb  ultra and so on to clean the signal as well. I do have a Txusb ultra which is also master clocked and yet got myself a Gaia. As I said, everyone is free to choose their own poison and if it makes a difference or gives a bump in SQ, fine and well. I listen to a piece of gear and if I find it gives me sonic satisfaction, then I buy it. It’s that easy for me. My ears, and only mine matter. I am of course very thankful to all the seniors and gurus here who have been very patient with my PMs with regards to queries or doubts that I have. Thank you.

 

Hi Abyss,

 

Indeed our ears are all the matters end of the day and sharing by others are for consideration which still does often helps to lead to further improvement in our own system.  I really appreciates the agree to disagree atmosphere here in audiophilestyle and headfi forums .. do head to superbestaudiofriend cult like forum which rules includes something like either agree with them or shut up which I joined after seeing immediate 3 dislikes when member dimertiti with the standard Terminator made some casual queries in their rockna thread.

 

So many different attributes and variables in our systems and personal preference lead often to no absolute and hope for the avoidance of negative remarks like "bad" or 10x better that cannot be substantiated and most of all, avoidance of dislikes if possible  ... already too much hate and dislike globally in recent challenging times.

 

In my case of usb regen, I have the iso regen, ifi usb3.0 and Ideon 3R mk1 that I tried and found the Ideon 3R mk1 fed by zerozone 7.5v lps lead to preferred sound from my system when I had the standard Terminator. I avoid the use of addition usb cable and have $2 adaptor at the side of the Terminator and had various wooden block to support them.

 

This is when used with then ifi idefender 3.0 to cut 5v at various source sides of allo usb bridge as well as the 10x pricer Antipode ex .. figured that the best usb isolated cable will benefit to have no 5v running along the audio signal. Had tried the Oyaide continental 5S V2, Furutech gt2 pro, AQ carbon and Zonotone shupreme to settled with the Oyaide which clearly sounded the best in MY system.

 

With the Terminator+ and the Antipodes, I did some extensive listening via both the salon 2 and grado headphones and prefers without the Ideon 3r ... sounded cleanest and natural and probably easier to hear out cos Terminator+ is just quieter with darker background (hence my first review on veiled standard Terminator in comparison).

 

I will soon be breaking into Alvin's shop just about 15 mins from my home to snatch his gaia if I do not get the demo unit next week to end all speculation of it on at least in my System on the impact of usb source to gaia instead of the Terminator+ and most importantly digital aes_ebu from my Bel Canto Fm-1 .. lol !

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[richard_crl032]

13 hours ago, vortecjr said:

That statement is to generalized and may not apply to all cases. What if the master clock from the LVDS i2s source is really good. What if the master clock from the LVDS i2s source is ignored and the local clock is used. What if the master clock from the LVDS i2s source is properly reclocked in the receiving unit. These cases exist in the wild so we would need to know the design of this unit. 

 

Hi Vortecjr,

 

Indeed and for myself having the Terminator Plus, the hope that its sealed ocxo and flagship accoustic treatment is better than most sources .. afterall it the dac that will be used.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[Dev]

@Abyss Man nice review on the T+ and Gaia. I might have missed it but can you clarify what is your source ? I have a Terminator and pondering on the upgrade path 🤔

[richard_crl032]

On 8/1/2020 at 11:21 AM, Abyss Man said:

Hi R1200CL,

Before going to the impressions, please allow me to share my Termy and DDC journey. These are from my memory of course, so please use your discretion and don't flame me ok?

1. Termy was bought and loved it, Alvin recommended that I go with a i2S connection cause the Termy loves it, hence a Su-1 was bought and I was using a AQ Coffee HDMI cable with it. Nice improvement overall. What struck me most was the quietness.

2. The Gustard U16 appeared on the market and I bought it, although there were numerous issues with the FW it worked fine for me cause I never upsample my music. (It was better than the SU-1 for sure).

3. The new DSP V2 board for Termy was released. Out went the Gustard cause the board was slightly better sounding/equal in status and as such rendered the Gustard useless and anyways I was getting pissed off with the FW issues with the Gustard.

 

Fast forward to present day,

1. Termy was mated with the Gaia and it was a OMG moment. 3-D and Holographics went ballistic. I was convinced that this will be end game for a while at least.

2.  TP came in for an audit, and it was very good and I enjoyed it as much as the Termy/Gaia combo, but was not still not convinced that I should get the TP.

3. Enter Alvin, he told me to listen to the TP again and give it some time to settle down, and boy was he right. The TP was performing at a better level than the Termy/Gaia combo but in all honesty, a lot of us could live with the combo of Termy/Gaia. But me being me, I got the TP.

4. TP came in and was enjoying my new found improvements in SQ.

5. Enter the Iris, and immediately I could sense even the entry level DDC was a nice addition especially if clocked by the TP. The 3-D and Holographic presentation was.......well scary. I'm a headphone user and so many times I could swear that the audience was outside my field of hearing. A friend came over to listen and when asked what he thought, he said he does'nt know cause he has never heard headphones present music in such a manner. (There was no base to refer to). I'm using the Abyss Phi CC btw. It was like strapping speakers to your ears.LOL

6. Currently, I'm back to just the TP as the Iris is back on tour. I have lost some of that Holographic presentation but it still is one mighty DAC on its own.

* For the Iris and Gaia I was using just basic power cables and an el cheapo HDMI cable and yet it was as reported above.

7. Currently awaiting for my Gaia to arrive, after which I will get some decent power cords from Tellurium and a HDMI cable probably from Argentus, unless something better gets reported or recommended. Please also take a step back and look at the cables which are in your sytem. They make a huge difference as well.

 

To summarise:

I have not yet heard the TP/Gaia combo, but putting A+B together, I think it would be one bloody freaking good combo, not forgetting the TP loves I2S connection and is also recommended by Alvin. As we know USB implemenatation is never easy and thus the need for DDC or USB regenerators like the Phoneix from Innuos, Tx-usb ultra from soTm, Intona and so on. There is a market for these equpiments for a reason and manufacturer's spend a lot on R&D to achieve the ulimate or at least try and get us as close as possible to music nirvana.

 

Hope this helps and do forgive me if I don't make sense cause I'm not a professional reviewer nor do I have bat's ears. As long as my toes are tapping, I'm a happy bunny. I do not like to discredit any one or any gear or branding cause, end of the day, the choice is ours to make. It's a free world. God bless.

 

I have not yet heard the TP/Gaia combo, but putting A+B together, I think it would be one bloody freaking good combo, not forgetting the TP loves I2S connection and is also recommended by Alvin.

 

Hi Abyss,

 

Dev just alerted that you have both the TP and Gaia at the same time but I am confused that from above previous post on "fast forward" that: 

 

1. tells me that you have the gaia and

2. tells me you have the TP

 

but yet above stated that you had not heard the gaia and the TP together ? 🤔

 

But more importantly if you indeed had the gaia and TP at the same time, please share your review of key query on at least your system but do share if equipment especially if speakers or headphones:

 

1. Digital inputs via gaia vs directly to TP

 

2. Usb input via gaia vs directly to TP

 

Assumption is best case of synced gaia to TP and my apology of bold lettering to ensure my possibly confusing statement oso after "some" soju with korean lunch 😅

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[Abyss Man]

I never had the TP/Gaia combo. Dev probably read wrong or you understood wrongly. Oh ya, one more thing, I am a vegan and teetotal and as such am not able to do the various tests as requested and don’t intend to as well. Please enjoy and I’m off to a vegan lunch with lemonade. Have fun.

[Abyss Man]

2 hours ago, Dev said:

@Abyss Man nice review on the T+ and Gaia. I might have missed it but can you clarify what is your source ? I have a Terminator and pondering on the upgrade path 🤔

Thanks Dev, they were reviewed independently but never as a combo, although I did mate the Termy and Gaia. The Termy/Gaia combo is really good and I loved.

 

My source is a bit of a spaghetti, my server is Innous Zenith Mk2 which is in turn connected to the soTm trifecta. The trifecta is master clocked by soTm.

[richard_crl032]

45 minutes ago, Abyss Man said:

I never had the TP/Gaia combo. Dev probably read wrong or you understood wrongly. Oh ya, one more thing, I am a vegan and teetotal and as such am not able to do the various tests as requested and don’t intend to as well. Please enjoy and I’m off to a vegan lunch with lemonade. Have fun.

 

Hi Abyss 

 

Aaah .. got it and understand.

 

All will be sorted out soon for me these 2 days .. the gaia is in the backseat of my car otw home 😃.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

[richard_crl032]

Oops .. forgot to mentioned one critical test.

 

It is to test if daisy chain of T+ clock with both my avatar and gaia works.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[Acholate]

I'm in same position as @Dev, looking forward to comparison between Terminator with Gaia, just TP and TP with Gaia.