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New D/D Converters from Denafrips


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I'm still wondering what the deal is with the clock inputs. Whether or not Denafrips has their own clock in the works, ( @alvin1118) I wish there was a bit of info about where someone could get an outboard clock at these frequencies that would likely beat the built in ones. 

 

The frequencies aren't "strange" as far as internal clocking goes, I've seen them both for the 5-7 odd years I've been eyeing clock mods, but they are not mainstream for input clock frequencies. I think the SoTM txUSB and SCLK-ex are the only normal, audiophile "master" clock sources I know of that output the 45MHz and 49MHz signals...

 

For me, I'm trying to get a single master clock with maybe 4-8 outputs that I can then use as a single reference across all my front end components. With the addition of the Gaia and it's unique master clock input frequencies, it seems difficult to find a place for it in my system now. 

 

Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas about a good source for those frequencies that also has the standard, 10MHz one?

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Hi Ben-M,

I would think so. If you look at the Terminator Plus it has its own  45 and 49Mhz frequency out to be synced with the Gaia, as for users without the TP but would like to have the Gaia in their system, I guess a dedicated external word clock should be in the works.

 

In all honesty, the double OCXO in the Gaia is already very good on its own. I guess the reason for their modus operandi is for Denafrips to have it own "ecological system". I am assuming here and you know what they say about assumptions being the mother of all F@#K ups. LOL.

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6 hours ago, Abyss Man said:

Hi Ben-M,

I would think so. If you look at the Terminator Plus it has its own  45 and 49Mhz frequency out to be synced with the Gaia, as for users without the TP but would like to have the Gaia in their system, I guess a dedicated external word clock should be in the works.

Good for you for spotting that one! I had to read to basically the last page of the new Terminator Plus User Manual to find confirmation that that was the usage for the "clock out" function! 

 

And it's exactly as you said, the Terminator OCXOs are used as Master Clock inputs for the Gaia, or the new Avatar CDP. It's definitely got an "ecosystem" feel to it, but on the other hand, Denafrips did open up their I1s configuartor to anyone, so they've been pretty open in supporting other standards for the end user/owner. I think the overall approach sounds cool, but not sure if it's better or redundant in this case since the USB input and clocking are both upgraded compared to the regular Terminator, and apparently superior clocking compared to the Gaia. 

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6 hours ago, bodiebill said:

The Gaia can convert from many inputs to many outputs.

So it look useful to convert to, say, usb to I2S.

However I see no I2S in.

So it looks like there is no benefit if the source already outputs I2S?

For that, there is the one and only Titans Audio Helen. The only D/D that does I2s in->I2s out, that anybody knows of.

 

So the whole flow there would be:

1. Terminator Plus Master Clocks->Gaia. 

2. USB source->Gaia.

3. Gaia USB->Gaia I2s.

4. Gaia I2s out->Helen I2s in.

5. Helen I2s in->Helen I2s out.

6. Helen I2s out->Terminator Plus I2s in.

Music.

 

That chain gives me a bit of a laugh, mostly because I've never heard of a DAC sending Master Clock outputs to an upstream device... Maybe I'm behind the times in the External Mster Clocking field...

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50 minutes ago, Ben-M said:

1. Terminator Plus Master Clocks->Gaia. 

2. USB source->Gaia.

3. Gaia USB->Gaia I2s.

4. Gaia I2s out->Helen I2s in.

5. Helen I2s in->Helen I2s out.

6. Helen I2s out->Terminator Plus I2s in.

Music.

 

Mind-boggling 🙂

And what would it achieve compared to I2S source -> Terminator ?

 

audio system

 

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11 hours ago, Ben-M said:

For that, there is the one and only Titans Audio Helen. The only D/D that does I2s in->I2s out, that anybody knows of.

 

So the whole flow there would be:

1. Terminator Plus Master Clocks->Gaia. 

2. USB source->Gaia.

3. Gaia USB->Gaia I2s.

4. Gaia I2s out->Helen I2s in.

5. Helen I2s in->Helen I2s out.

6. Helen I2s out->Terminator Plus I2s in.

Music.

 

That chain gives me a bit of a laugh, mostly because I've never heard of a DAC sending Master Clock outputs to an upstream device... Maybe I'm behind the times in the External Mster Clocking field...

 

Hi Ben,

 

Indeed  ... to me best clock should be nearest to dac and you have the dual encapsulated ocxo ones in the Terminator plus.

 

Next, to sync source to dac directly makes it preferrable to avoid added cable which itself introduces jitter as in usual case of a master clock, added big $ for an better one than oxco as well as not wasting more $ in clock in other source equipment. In my case, I am glad my Avator transport is a vfm <usd1.2 with only femto clock.

 

Please note for the gaia as seen from the pcb photos, one can compare that the ocxo even if same grade (dunno) are not similarly treated and rightfully so as the Terminator Plus is their latest flagship and the gaia is their first and only ddc at a much lower price albeit already into ocxo realm.

 

On your mentioned flow, indeed no sense to even connect any source's usb (or i2s) output for hires dsd to gaia and then via i2s to Terminator Plus to avoid more cable, connectors as well as also format (hence ddc) just to sync clock ... even for i2s output with the added cable, connectors etc. since you cannot repair the digital signal once damaged with added jitters regardless how super your downstream clock is. 

 

So what is the gaia to me ? I will only use it for other digital sources with xlr, rca or bnc and not already with i2s or usb and hope synced clock from it with the dual ocxo clock as well as preferred i2s output of the Terminator Plus proves beneficial.

 

Will try out if I can get the demo gaia from vineshine but trial of bnc T splitter from 45mhz clock output of Terminator must work else loss to my currently synced Avatar with i2s D to i2s B via RJ45 will not be acceptable to me.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

GAIA:

Screenshot_20200706-030404_Chrome.jpg

 

Terminator Plus:

090018l8eaiwana8uqdbjw.png

Revel Salon 2 speakers, Sander Magtech amp, Audible Illusion L3B (Blackgate) preamp, Denafrips Terminator Plus dac, Denafrips Hermes ddc, Antipodes CX/EX/P1/P2 server/player (Oladra upgraded), Denafrips Avatar cdp, Bel Canto fm1 tuner, Airties Wireless Mesh, ifi Blue Zen BT receiver, 2X Uptone EtherRegen + AfterDark Emperor Double Crown 10M clock, Zerozone 5/7.5/12v LPS, Uptone LPS 1.2, 2x diy 2kVA Isotransformers, dedicated 20/30A lines for separate digital/analog, Nordost Quattro Fil interconnects, Acoustic Revive TripleC Ethernet/i2S cables, Shunyata Sigma usb cable with ifi Idefender 3.0, Aurealis/Apogee/Canare BNC clock cables, Cardas Clear speaker cable and jumpers, Zonotone Shupreme/5050 powercords, Garrard 301 on slate plinth/sme 3012R/Ortofon Classic Royal GM mk2/diy 301 motor PSU/graham IC90/kimber tak ag etc./Headamp Gilmore Lite Mk2+Golden Reference PSU/Grado FreeSystem fg-1 headphones

 

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Gaia-1.jpg

Speaker Room: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Pacific 2 | Viva Linea | Constellation Inspiration Stereo 1.0 | FinkTeam Kim | Revel subs  

Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC 

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Arnold's personal live-in chef just arrived, ready to serve him some tasty tunes! 

 

This thing is built like a tank and rather heavy for its size.  Great packaging and build quality.  

 

 

Terminator.jpg

Speaker Room: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Pacific 2 | Viva Linea | Constellation Inspiration Stereo 1.0 | FinkTeam Kim | Revel subs  

Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC 

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7 hours ago, Blake said:

Arnold's personal live-in chef just arrived, ready to serve him some tasty tunes! 

 

This thing is built like a tank and rather heavy for its size.  Great packaging and build quality.  

 

 

Terminator.jpg

 

Hi Blake,

 

Congras !

 

So Gaia arrived or Terminator also arrived ?

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

Revel Salon 2 speakers, Sander Magtech amp, Audible Illusion L3B (Blackgate) preamp, Denafrips Terminator Plus dac, Denafrips Hermes ddc, Antipodes CX/EX/P1/P2 server/player (Oladra upgraded), Denafrips Avatar cdp, Bel Canto fm1 tuner, Airties Wireless Mesh, ifi Blue Zen BT receiver, 2X Uptone EtherRegen + AfterDark Emperor Double Crown 10M clock, Zerozone 5/7.5/12v LPS, Uptone LPS 1.2, 2x diy 2kVA Isotransformers, dedicated 20/30A lines for separate digital/analog, Nordost Quattro Fil interconnects, Acoustic Revive TripleC Ethernet/i2S cables, Shunyata Sigma usb cable with ifi Idefender 3.0, Aurealis/Apogee/Canare BNC clock cables, Cardas Clear speaker cable and jumpers, Zonotone Shupreme/5050 powercords, Garrard 301 on slate plinth/sme 3012R/Ortofon Classic Royal GM mk2/diy 301 motor PSU/graham IC90/kimber tak ag etc./Headamp Gilmore Lite Mk2+Golden Reference PSU/Grado FreeSystem fg-1 headphones

 

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46 minutes ago, richard_crl032 said:

 

Hi Blake,

 

Congras !

 

So Gaia arrived or Terminator also arrived ?

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

Thanks Richard!

 

Gaia arrived yesterday, Terminator Plus will arrive in around 3 weeks.

 

 

Speaker Room: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Pacific 2 | Viva Linea | Constellation Inspiration Stereo 1.0 | FinkTeam Kim | Revel subs  

Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC 

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On 6/9/2020 at 2:57 PM, 57gold said:

Why isn't the stuff in the D to D converter engineered into a DAC? 

 

Using Berkeley as an example, seems to me that a $5K+ DAC should handle in incoming signal without needing conversion with a $2K box and additional cables.  Why does the clocking mechanism in the DAC not do the job the an external reclocker does?  Do the designers of DACs "forget" as step and need a fix for their products?  


Maybe Berkeley has done something smart. 
They could make a Ethernet to SPDIF/AES-EBU DD as the next step, and still reuse the DAC 😀

 

As far as I know, such a device has yet not been made. Why ?
Only a few DAC’s with Ethernet in. 

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On 6/13/2020 at 11:28 PM, hopkins said:

 

I was under the impression that what was well understood was that USB was not suited for digital audio :)


Would you like to tell us how or who gave you that understanding ?

And what would the alternative be ?

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1 hour ago, R1200CL said:


Would you like to tell us how or who gave you that understanding ?

And what would the alternative be ?

 

Hi R1200CL,

 

Antipodes for one even if their output is only usb but guess they pushed as far as possible for hires and native dsd since typical digital format limited in sampling rates with exception of dual AES.

 

Alternative will be the mentioned ethernet RJ45.

 

Nevertheless, also dependent on implementation as usual.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

Revel Salon 2 speakers, Sander Magtech amp, Audible Illusion L3B (Blackgate) preamp, Denafrips Terminator Plus dac, Denafrips Hermes ddc, Antipodes CX/EX/P1/P2 server/player (Oladra upgraded), Denafrips Avatar cdp, Bel Canto fm1 tuner, Airties Wireless Mesh, ifi Blue Zen BT receiver, 2X Uptone EtherRegen + AfterDark Emperor Double Crown 10M clock, Zerozone 5/7.5/12v LPS, Uptone LPS 1.2, 2x diy 2kVA Isotransformers, dedicated 20/30A lines for separate digital/analog, Nordost Quattro Fil interconnects, Acoustic Revive TripleC Ethernet/i2S cables, Shunyata Sigma usb cable with ifi Idefender 3.0, Aurealis/Apogee/Canare BNC clock cables, Cardas Clear speaker cable and jumpers, Zonotone Shupreme/5050 powercords, Garrard 301 on slate plinth/sme 3012R/Ortofon Classic Royal GM mk2/diy 301 motor PSU/graham IC90/kimber tak ag etc./Headamp Gilmore Lite Mk2+Golden Reference PSU/Grado FreeSystem fg-1 headphones

 

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7 hours ago, richard_crl032 said:

 

Hi R1200CL,

 

Antipodes for one even if their output is only usb but guess they pushed as far as possible for hires and native dsd since typical digital format limited in sampling rates with exception of dual AES.

 

Alternative will be the mentioned ethernet RJ45.

 

Nevertheless, also dependent on implementation as usual.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard


My understanding is that the USB protocol itself is very good for audio. But it has some issues. 
The old AES/EBU or SPDIF can’t do over 24/192. Can that standard be upgraded, if not, why ?
 

So if you like to feed your DAC with more, or DSD, you need something else. 
 

As USB is a computer interface, connecting your computer directly to your DAC is often regarded as a not so good way. Using special designed computer cards for USB can help this a lot. 
And how good the DAC has implemented USB as you say matters. 
 

It is my understanding that the best way to implement computer audio is to place the computer away from your audio equipment. And use Ethernet (especially fiber) as transfer, and then convert Ethernet to USB. 
 

I well implemented NUC can be used as well. We normally use the term endpoint. A Pi woks well. In some cases a iPhone with CCK is very good. I think myself it all started with Squeezebox which probably was ahead of its time. John Swenson design gave us the Rendu’s, and Sotm made some similar products. 
 

I have a DAC without USB. As it is considered to be very good DAC, my only way to do computer audio is by using a DD.

I don’t think DAC chips necessarily has been so much better the last 10 to 20 years. Even high quality DAC’s of today can use close to 20 years old DAC chips. Clocks and power regulators have been better. How jitter is dealt with probably have as well. 
I have limited knowledge of what is best technology to be used in a DAC to convert DSD. 
 

Reading this tread, I have just realized that people also can use DD as some sort of a cleaner/regeneration of the digital signal. I taught such was not needed, but in a way it make sense. As the etherRegen make sense. 
As it’s said that what kind of switch is upfront may contribute to the SQ. So I guess the same goes for DD’s. 
I presume this is mostly related to clock noice. And the implementation of power, as always.

 

But somehow it seems to go quite extreme to add a DD upfront a USB DAC. The DAC designer should be able to create the DAC without a need for en external DD. Is this wrong to assume ? I think you better spend your money on DSP, and especially rom correction. (DSP implemented is audio equipment is also the wrong way to go). 
 

I also think that the best would be to get rid of USB, and only use Ethernet (fiber) direct into your DAC.  As you then hopefully won’t need any DD. (Well maybe the etherRegen, if that can be consider as a DD).
 

USB used as a standard for audio creates a lot of support issues, as there is not a standard that all manufacturers follow. What DSD rate is supported is also an issue.
 

In many cases your result is depending on the OS in use. Audio transfer over Ethernet has a standard, but isn’t much in use for consumer audio, and it’s my understanding it doesn’t work well for our needs. (In addition to be expensive). Maybe that will change. But in the meantime many manufacturers starts to support RAAT (Roon). Or NAA (HQPlayer). 

 

I like to see an Ethernet to AES/EBU converter. I’m not aware of such product. Why is that ?

What happens between your router (or phone?) and amplifier is where the battle will be.

 

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On 7/22/2020 at 10:34 AM, Summit said:

 

I wonder if you prefer SQ with or without ultraRendu now that you have acquired a Gaia?

 

I stream from Tidal and Qobuz and my Melco server also connects to the UltraRendu via an EtherRegen so in all my use cases the UltraRendu is in the chain.

Speaker Room: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Pacific 2 | Viva Linea | Constellation Inspiration Stereo 1.0 | FinkTeam Kim | Revel subs  

Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC 

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On 7/23/2020 at 11:17 PM, Blake said:

 

I stream from Tidal and Qobuz and my Melco server also connects to the UltraRendu via an EtherRegen so in all my use cases the UltraRendu is in the chain.

 

Okay I'm a little slow does it mean that the ultraRendu enhance the sound of your audio system both with the Gaia and without the Gaia?

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https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/denafrips7/

 

Glad clock outputs of TP is finally explored here albiet I need to test out gaia to sync instead of daisu chain my Avatar and gaia next week .. and to be continued 😂

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

Revel Salon 2 speakers, Sander Magtech amp, Audible Illusion L3B (Blackgate) preamp, Denafrips Terminator Plus dac, Denafrips Hermes ddc, Antipodes CX/EX/P1/P2 server/player (Oladra upgraded), Denafrips Avatar cdp, Bel Canto fm1 tuner, Airties Wireless Mesh, ifi Blue Zen BT receiver, 2X Uptone EtherRegen + AfterDark Emperor Double Crown 10M clock, Zerozone 5/7.5/12v LPS, Uptone LPS 1.2, 2x diy 2kVA Isotransformers, dedicated 20/30A lines for separate digital/analog, Nordost Quattro Fil interconnects, Acoustic Revive TripleC Ethernet/i2S cables, Shunyata Sigma usb cable with ifi Idefender 3.0, Aurealis/Apogee/Canare BNC clock cables, Cardas Clear speaker cable and jumpers, Zonotone Shupreme/5050 powercords, Garrard 301 on slate plinth/sme 3012R/Ortofon Classic Royal GM mk2/diy 301 motor PSU/graham IC90/kimber tak ag etc./Headamp Gilmore Lite Mk2+Golden Reference PSU/Grado FreeSystem fg-1 headphones

 

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13 hours ago, Summit said:

 

Okay I'm a little slow does it mean that the ultraRendu enhance the sound of your audio system both with the Gaia and without the Gaia?

 

Hi @Summit no worries mate.  The way I have things setup I am unable to listen to music without the Ultrarendu in the chain so unfortunately I can't provide any input on that question.

 

Speaker Room: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Pacific 2 | Viva Linea | Constellation Inspiration Stereo 1.0 | FinkTeam Kim | Revel subs  

Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC 

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