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New D/D Converters from Denafrips


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On 6/9/2020 at 2:57 PM, 57gold said:

Why isn't the stuff in the D to D converter engineered into a DAC? 

 

Using Berkeley as an example, seems to me that a $5K+ DAC should handle in incoming signal without needing conversion with a $2K box and additional cables.  Why does the clocking mechanism in the DAC not do the job the an external reclocker does?  Do the designers of DACs "forget" as step and need a fix for their products?  


Maybe Berkeley has done something smart. 
They could make a Ethernet to SPDIF/AES-EBU DD as the next step, and still reuse the DAC 😀

 

As far as I know, such a device has yet not been made. Why ?
Only a few DAC’s with Ethernet in. 

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On 6/13/2020 at 11:28 PM, hopkins said:

 

I was under the impression that what was well understood was that USB was not suited for digital audio :)


Would you like to tell us how or who gave you that understanding ?

And what would the alternative be ?

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7 hours ago, richard_crl032 said:

 

Hi R1200CL,

 

Antipodes for one even if their output is only usb but guess they pushed as far as possible for hires and native dsd since typical digital format limited in sampling rates with exception of dual AES.

 

Alternative will be the mentioned ethernet RJ45.

 

Nevertheless, also dependent on implementation as usual.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard


My understanding is that the USB protocol itself is very good for audio. But it has some issues. 
The old AES/EBU or SPDIF can’t do over 24/192. Can that standard be upgraded, if not, why ?
 

So if you like to feed your DAC with more, or DSD, you need something else. 
 

As USB is a computer interface, connecting your computer directly to your DAC is often regarded as a not so good way. Using special designed computer cards for USB can help this a lot. 
And how good the DAC has implemented USB as you say matters. 
 

It is my understanding that the best way to implement computer audio is to place the computer away from your audio equipment. And use Ethernet (especially fiber) as transfer, and then convert Ethernet to USB. 
 

I well implemented NUC can be used as well. We normally use the term endpoint. A Pi woks well. In some cases a iPhone with CCK is very good. I think myself it all started with Squeezebox which probably was ahead of its time. John Swenson design gave us the Rendu’s, and Sotm made some similar products. 
 

I have a DAC without USB. As it is considered to be very good DAC, my only way to do computer audio is by using a DD.

I don’t think DAC chips necessarily has been so much better the last 10 to 20 years. Even high quality DAC’s of today can use close to 20 years old DAC chips. Clocks and power regulators have been better. How jitter is dealt with probably have as well. 
I have limited knowledge of what is best technology to be used in a DAC to convert DSD. 
 

Reading this tread, I have just realized that people also can use DD as some sort of a cleaner/regeneration of the digital signal. I taught such was not needed, but in a way it make sense. As the etherRegen make sense. 
As it’s said that what kind of switch is upfront may contribute to the SQ. So I guess the same goes for DD’s. 
I presume this is mostly related to clock noice. And the implementation of power, as always.

 

But somehow it seems to go quite extreme to add a DD upfront a USB DAC. The DAC designer should be able to create the DAC without a need for en external DD. Is this wrong to assume ? I think you better spend your money on DSP, and especially rom correction. (DSP implemented is audio equipment is also the wrong way to go). 
 

I also think that the best would be to get rid of USB, and only use Ethernet (fiber) direct into your DAC.  As you then hopefully won’t need any DD. (Well maybe the etherRegen, if that can be consider as a DD).
 

USB used as a standard for audio creates a lot of support issues, as there is not a standard that all manufacturers follow. What DSD rate is supported is also an issue.
 

In many cases your result is depending on the OS in use. Audio transfer over Ethernet has a standard, but isn’t much in use for consumer audio, and it’s my understanding it doesn’t work well for our needs. (In addition to be expensive). Maybe that will change. But in the meantime many manufacturers starts to support RAAT (Roon). Or NAA (HQPlayer). 

 

I like to see an Ethernet to AES/EBU converter. I’m not aware of such product. Why is that ?

What happens between your router (or phone?) and amplifier is where the battle will be.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 5/10/2020 at 11:08 PM, Blake said:

Alvin is using the Gaia with his Denafrips Terminator and he reports a big improvement with the Gaia in the chain.      


Hi Blake

It’s a bit confusing this double up DDC chain. 
However I was thinking there may be some analogies to Ethernet switches. As dual etherRegen is said to be better than one. 

 

To bad neither the Berkeley Alpha or SU-1 has other digital in like an AES/EBU. Or the Gaia USB out. Then one could test the hypothesis. 

(I don’t expect much improvement adding your Berkeley upfront the Gaia).

Maybe dual Iris will outperform one Gaia 😀

 

On the other hand, if this Gaia is this good, one should expect an improvement in front of almost any DAC.
 

Did you discuss with Alvin the differences between Iris vs Gaia if one only was after “normal’ USB to SPDIF converter (or AES/EBU). To me specs seems equal. So maybe an Iris will do ?
 

Do you know anything about Hermes ?

 

I must say it’s attempting to replace my SU-1. I still hope one day I can trow all usb out, and only use Ethernet as digital interface, or a DDC that has Ethernet in and AES/EBU out, so I still can use my old DAC. 

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5 hours ago, Abyss Man said:

Hope this helps and do forgive me if I don't make sense cause


Thanks Abyss

You only used Iris with I2S out ? Did you have it for a long time ?


So Alvin accepts returns ?

Edit. I’ve just noticed you’re in same town as Alvin 😀

 

I didn’t follow your whole story if it was in sequence, cause you had Gaia, and then Iris.

But I think you’re saying Iris is much better than SU-1 and Gustard U16.
 

I think the only difference between Iris and Gaia, is the clock. Gaia is using XCXO.
 

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35 minutes ago, matthias said:

So it is interesting to compare Gaia with Terminator Plus vs. Terminator Plus solo.


Not only that. It should be tested with different in and outputs in use. In addition the Gaia, should be tested with and without clocks from Terminator Plus. 
 

The present review doesn’t help me much as I’m interested in a DDC that has USB in and AES/EBU out. 
So in general not the I2S part of a DDC.

 

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1 hour ago, richard_crl032 said:

Believe this final update sums up the outcome of my planned venture with gaia with synced clock to T+ and i2s and should help bros here to consider the digital source quality if gaia will improve the sound quality of your system if you have the T+.

 


My understanding is you’re override the Gaia clock with the TP+ one.

 

I suppose removing the clock will change the result ?

Or maybe i2s requires the DAC clock. 

 

Conclusion is based on AES/EBU from FM radio and usb in from the Allo Usb bridge.

USB from server wasn’t any benefit. (Maybe cause USB is already very good). 
 

Also if you’re overriding the clock, one should think Iris would do the job almost as good 😀
 

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