TomWoB Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 Hi all, for a long time I was very happy with my SPDIF source Raspberry Pi with Allo DigiOne and moOde, but the UI of moOde has some limits. So I decide to switch to Roon. Another point was, I see some limits of a synchronus protocol like SPDIF, a "bit perfect signal" seams to be easier reachable with an asynchronous protocol like USB, which allows an error correction (copyping files via USB is in practice typically bit perfect). So I was searching for a "high quality USB-source", which brings me to e.g. "Allo USBridge Sig" for 300 bucks ... without the Roon Server. My favourite Roon Server is a Roon Nucleus, which costs here in Switzerland 1800.- Swiss Francs (approx = Euros) ... OUPS. So .. now I come to the point 😉 In case of you have a good DAC with galvanic isolation (I think most the people in this forum have something like that), the quality of USB-output I think "is not so important". Because of the asynchronous USB-protocol, the DAC must anyway do a re-clocking of the signal by its own, so e.g. Jitter is the problem of the DAC, not the problem of the USB-output. The USB-output must "be only good enough" to deliver a bit perfect USB-signal. I have a Chord Qutest, which have like most of Chord DACs an USB galvanic isolation and because of Rob Watts technology jitter is not an issue. So, which is USB-outpout should I choose? I'm big fan of the Roon Nucleus, which can be also "work as a USB-output", not as an "Audiophile USB-output" (it's a PC), but with a Chord Qutest this seems to be not a problem. The bigger problem is the price of a Roon Nucleus, 1800 bucks is too much for a "fanless Intel NUC" (the Nucleus is nothing else). So I decided to build my "own Nucleus": Intel NUC Baby Canyon NUC7i3BNH (PC hardware of the Nucleus for 300 bucks, same price as a Allo USBridge Sig!) some additional parts are needed to: 8 GB RAM and a SSD for Roon Operating System (together 100.-) Akasa Newton S7: matching aluminium fanless case for the Intel NUC above (another 100.-) the best: Roon Nucleus OS = Roon ROCK can be downloaded for free, see Roon ROCK - get started clear ... Roon license you have to pay, like a original Roon Nucleus So, for 500 bucks I can get a "perfect fanless Roon Server in an aluminium case", which can direct deliver an USB-output for my Chord Qutest ... PERFECT, that's what I need! So, that's what I did 👍 ... and maybe I can inspire some of you to think about "where should my money go" ... into "Audiophile USB-outputs" or into "more useful stuff" (my opinion). Link to comment
zackthedog Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 I'm sure that setup is fine. My Mac Mini sounds pretty good as a USB music server. But if you haven't compared your NUC to other audiophile servers, how can you say that they are "overestimated"? My Allo USBridge Signature delivers a much cleaner signal than the Mac Mini. Have you compared your NUC directly with the Roon nucleus? WilliamWykeham 1 Link to comment
Popular Post vortecjr Posted April 25, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 25, 2020 Any computer in your home could have been the Roon server with no additional hardware cost. The Allo should not be compared to a NUC in this example. A NUC is a high power noisy computer and Allo is a low power clean endpoint. Roon specifically recommends a server with an end point configuration for this reason. I think you would have been better off with a clean endpoint with a good power supply. daverich4, Madra and WilliamWykeham 3 SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
TomWoB Posted April 25, 2020 Author Share Posted April 25, 2020 Hi zackthedog, hi vortecjr, some comments to your points: I have compared my NUC with my previous "Audiphile SPDIF-output" (Pi & Digione), result: I couldn't hear any difference I didn't compare it with an original Nucleus, because I don't have one. But I don't expect a difference, because: - HW is the same (Nucleus is a i3 NUC, Nucleus+ is a i7 NUC (see YouTube) - SW is the same: Roon ROCK I agree: USBridge Sig has for sure a better USB signal. But depending on the DAC, does it make "at the end" on the DAC analog output any difference? ... that's the big question! Because of Qutests galvanic isolation, "cleaner" is (maybe) useless and because of Qutests re-clocking "jitter" too My NUC is running 24/7. So there is no need, that my "normal PC" have to run when I listen to music. Btw: my wife is using this Roon Server too on her iMac My NUC is powered by a Sbooster power supply Conclusion: I really understand your points, I think the MOST important thing is the DAC! Depending on the DAC, the qualitiy of the DAC digital inputs maybe doesn't matter (bit perfect signal possibility required). That's why I wrote in the headline " ... Roon Nucleus USB-output CAN be enough". In case of my setup, it IS enough 😉 Link to comment
chauphuong Posted April 27, 2020 Share Posted April 27, 2020 Never enough in my case. I have used Oppo BDP, NUC, Rasp Pi (usb), Rasp Pi (Digione), UsbSig... as digital transporter. Different transporters = different SQ. Link to comment
TomWoB Posted April 27, 2020 Author Share Posted April 27, 2020 Hi chauphoung, but not only output is important, connected DAC is relevant too (in my opinion DAC is more important) ! There is another important thing: the complete signal path with an "Audiophile USB-output" you have the perfect connection to your DAC: I agree. But what is with the rest of your signal path? Typically it goes via a noisy home network, or did you spend hundrets/thousands of bucks for audiophile switches, microRendus, ... the complete signal path is relevant for sound quality! combination Roon + USBridge Sig: as I known you can only setup a RoonReady signal path with Ropiee, with e.g. moOde you can't. The forums are full of posts about connection problems, dropouts, ... other RoonReady endpoints like SOtM sMS-200 have noisy DC-DC converters inside too my setup has the "simpliest RoonReady signal path" you can have! It's running for two month now, without any dropouts or other connection problems Roon Nucleus is known as an "Audiophile Music Server" Read the White Paper a fanless NUC with Roon ROCK is a Nucleus (if correct NUC board is selected) especially in case of powered by a linear power supply like a Sbooster (attention. NUCs 7th generation can be powered by Sbooster, NUCs 8th generation not) network connection of my NUC is also galvanic isolated with a Pink Faun LAN Isolator With all my thoughts about signal path and Nucleus improvements, I think the Nucleus USB-output delivers a really good USB signal for a good DAC! Regards Tom Link to comment
bokko Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 First off I use Roon for playback of my digital media. Still own a very good record player and many albums so have a good reference. Think a very important point that needs to made first is how does your DAC sound best? I started with an older tube diy hack Dac I built ages ago. For it my DigiOne signature was the only choice via coax spdif. Then came the Allo Katana great device. The Shanti is a worthwhile upgrade or another good quality PS. Wouldn’t spend more than what the Shanti is worth. Then came into some money and bought a new dac. RME ADI-2. Due to good experience with previous Allo products just bought a USBridge sig to run it connected via USB. Then after having some driver issues with the USBridge I discover that the ADI-2 sounds better on a PC running Asio drivers in Native mode for DSD playback. Further research reveals some DAC will also support Native mode DSD in Linux. nothing ever gets easier for the Audiophile LOL stay safe Link to comment
TomWoB Posted May 2, 2020 Author Share Posted May 2, 2020 I did some power consumption measurements to see how "well" my Sbooster together with my Intel NUC does operate. First of all a tip: use the 18V setting on a Sbooster 18/19V, because NUCs can operate from 12-19V and Sbooster delivers more power at 18V, see Sbooster specification: 18 Volt: max 2.25 Ampere = 40.50 Watt 19 Volt: max 1.85 Ampere = 35.15 Watt (5 Watt less!) My NUC has the following specification: Intel NUC Baby Canyon NUC7i3BNH, fanless with Akasa Newton S7 case 16 GB Corsair Vengeance RAM (2x 8 GB) 250 GB Samsung 860 EVO M.2 SSD (Roon ROCK with Database) 2000 GB Samsung 860 EVO Basic 2.5'' SSD (music files) I made myself a tool, which allows exact measurements with the "Sbooster cable system": Together with the Fluke 115, which has a Minimum, Maximum and Average value functionality, I measured the following results at 18.2 Volt with Chord Qutest connected via USB (test intervals 1-3 minutes): Booting NUC (only a few seconds): 1.0 Ampere (maximum) Roon Idle (no music playing): 0.36 Ampere (average) Playing music 192 kHz, 24 bit on local USB DAC Qutest:0.45 Ampere (average), 0.53 Ampere (maximum) Playing three independent 192 kHz, 24 bit music streams (USB DAC + 2 network endpoints):0.52 Ampere (average), 0.79 Ampere (maximum) Importing music into Roon library, import setting "Fast (1 core)":0.68 Ampere (average), 0.99 Ampere (maximum = copy & import file) Really interesting, during the whole two hours measurements, I never saw a value > 1.0 Ampere. So, the NUC consumes never more than 20 Watts! It seems to be a "low power" music server, so hopefully "less noisy" 😉 Link to comment
WilliamWykeham Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 I have had the opposite experience as the OP in my system with my ears. When I added a Digione Signature, it was the cleanest sound I had ever experienced, especially with a high quality silver digital cable. I have a DIY music server going into my Verizon fios router, and then into the Digione - yes, probably more to optimize here, but even with this setup my system sounds better than I've ever heard. I like the Digone Sig much more than my SMS-200 neo, although that endpoint is not being fed from a linear power source, which is also hugely important - I am very glad for having bought the Shanti along with the Digione Sig. Link to comment
TomWoB Posted May 3, 2020 Author Share Posted May 3, 2020 Hi WilliamWykeham, which DAC do you have? Same DAC tried with Digione Sig and/or SMS-200 Neo? Attention: what makes really the difference? The output quality of these two endpoints or the quality of the two different digital inputs of your DAC (SPDIF vs USB)? Link to comment
WilliamWykeham Posted May 3, 2020 Share Posted May 3, 2020 Hey @TomWoB I have a Denafrips Terminator. Yes, same dac. The USB input on the dac is regarded as the best input. I think the nice silver digital cable I’m using from Requisite Audio makes a big difference too; I’m using a Curious Evolved for USB. Link to comment
TomWoB Posted May 3, 2020 Author Share Posted May 3, 2020 Hi @WiliamWykeham, wow... great DAC. But now I‘m confused. In your first post you talked about „cleanest sound with Digione Sig“ and silver cable (which means SPDIF) and in your second post you talked about „USB regarded as best input“, also with a silver cable (which means USB) ... ? Please clarify: which input of your Denafrips Terminator with which connected device delivers the best sound (your opinion) ? Or do you mean „USBridge Sig“ instead of „Digione Sig“ ? Link to comment
Popular Post TomWoB Posted June 18, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 18, 2020 Sorry, I was wrong, audiophile USB-outputs are not overestimated ! I took your comments (also in other threads) to heart and thought why not try something new. First I tried the iFi iSilencer 3.0, for 50 Euro certainly worth a try. And really, there was an improvement clearly audible. OK. if that already brought an improvement, what would be possible with an UpTone Audio ISO REGEN? If I would be disappointed, I could have made use of the 30-day, money back, satisfaction guarantee. But what can I say, once again a significant improvement "of simply everything". I could hear things I've never heard before, especially in bass and soundstage. The sound is absolutely fantastic! I never thought that such an improvement is possible "only within the USB-chain". And really, for the first time in years I feel that my audio setup is "finished". Everything sounds now very harmonious and balanced, absolutely stress-free, perfect for relaxed listening to music. Job done! I think the crucial key-points are: "Simple Devices" As an electrical engineer I prefer devices with simple, ingenious circuits and as few high quality parts as possible. E.g. my Lehmannaudio Linear headphone amplifier (Revision 2) with Mundorf capacitors, ISO REGEN with LT3042 voltage regulators or SBooster LPS with Schottky diodes. Even my fanless Intel NUC is a "relatively simple PC". I really don't like "part monsters" like e.g. "AUDIO-GD R-7HE". Too many parts, too many things can go wrong ! Linear Power Supplies My audio setup doesn't have any switching mode power supply! All devices are powered by a LPS (Lehmannaudio Linear has a build-in LPS, all others are powered by 3 SBooster MK II LPS). All power connections have the same phase, plugged into an Isothek EVO3 Sirius mains distribution block. Single Point Grounding My entire audio setup is really only grounded at one point. The headphone amplifier is grounded with the RC element shown below, the Qutest is grounded with the analog RCA-cable, the other components are not grounded (SBooster DC outputs are not grounded). Double Galvanic Isolated USB-Chain This is really special and was first not identified as necessary (see this thread). But now I think it's excellent: the first stage (ISO REGEN) isolates the Intel NUC and provides a perfect working condition for the second stage, the USB-input of the Qutest (clean power and clean USB signal). High Quality Cables Audioquest USB-Carbon & Ethernet Cinnamon cables, QED Reference Audio 40 RCA cable. 24/7 Operation This guarantees a stable and consistent environment. Complete system runs absolutely stable since 3 weeks. No dropouts, no glitches, no lost connections or any other problems. jolon, Mark Dirac and Superdad 3 Link to comment
Popular Post Nenon Posted June 18, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 18, 2020 1 hour ago, TomWoB said: Sorry, I was wrong, audiophile USB-outputs are not overestimated ! Welcome to the club! There is a reason servers like the Taiko Extreme exist and start from € 24,000. 1 hour ago, TomWoB said: And really, for the first time in years I feel that my audio setup is "finished". Everything sounds now very harmonious and balanced, absolutely stress-free, perfect for relaxed listening to music. Job done! Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but you are not done. You are just exploring the start of a long journey many of us here have been on. I recommend you spend a few days reading the novel thread. I saw the start of this thread and wanted to comment but most topics that start with these questions are from not so open minded people who prefer to argue than do an actual test. It's typically a waste of time. But I am glad to see you were open minded and decided to test some things. Your sound quality can get much better if you start exploring better power supplies, better cables, different computer components, different software, etc. They can also get much more expensive. Mark Dirac, TomWoB and Superdad 2 1 Industry disclosure: https://chicagohifi.com Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs Link to comment
TomWoB Posted June 18, 2020 Author Share Posted June 18, 2020 And really, for the first time in years I feel that my audio setup is "finished". Pssst, that's the official statement for my wife 😁 ... my statement is more like: And really, for the first time in years I feel that my audio setup is "finished" ... for now ! That's clear, I want to say/explain for "a few years". I really enjoy my system at the moment, so there is actually no need to spend more money in other devices 👍 ... and I really enjoy the situation "having no pressure to seek the next improvements". Superdad 1 Link to comment
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