Rpi4 playback DSD files

[nikolaos1969]

I would like to playback DSD streaming from a RPi4 to CXA81 amp, https://cambridgeaudio.com/en/products/hi-fi/cx-series-2/cxa81

What would you suggest me to do.

thx

[nikolaos1969]

6 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

You could install on rpi Volumio o MoOde or GentooPlayer (there is RuneAudio too but I never tried it)

Volumio and MoOde are MPD/Upmpdcli based

Gentooplayer is MPD/Upmpdcli based too but offers other solutions as LMS/Squeezelite

They can play dsd without any problem.
 

 

Well apart from RPi4, 2 GB I have ordered the hat hifiberry DIGI+PRO https://www.hifiberry.com/shop/boards/hifiberry-digi-pro/

in order to transport  with a minimum of electric noise to my amp. The problem is that optical and coaxial inputs does not support DSD. Only USB input of RPi4 support DSD. If I use USB input how to deal with electric noise?

[nikolaos1969]

23 minutes ago, bluesman said:

As Stephano points out, you can use Moode, RuneAudio, or Volumio on your Pi.  Here's a link to my comparison review of multiple players and here's a link to the summary table of my observations - those 3 all did very well with DSD in my systems.  If by stream you mean play your own networked files, they're all excellent.  If you plan to stream from the internet, I thought that Moode made web streaming easier than the other two and Volumio was a bit easier than RuneAudio.  This may be a matter of taste in GUIs and work flows.  As none of them is bad at it, I'd try them all and see which you like best.

 

It may not matter to you, but there's one limitation to DSD in your amplifier (which is a very nice piece).  The DAC won't go above 256 for DSD or DoP, so you won't be able to play higher res files at their native resolution (which is not a big deal to me, but to each his own).  Other than that, any of those 3 players should make you very happy.

Hi, I hope you have seen my answer to Stefano. Playback DSD via streaming over RPi4 USB input to amp?

[nikolaos1969]

5 minutes ago, DuckToller said:

Salut @nikolaos1969,

if I understand correctly. the limiting factor is the digital input for the DAC in your Amplifier: Cambrtidge writes: "TOSLINK optical: 16/24bit 32-96kHz PCM only, S/PDIF coaxial: 16/24bit 32-192kHz PCM only, USB: audio profile 1.0/2.0 (default 2.0), up to 32bit 384kHz PCM, up to DSD256 or DoP256, ".
Which means that you you either need a Source/Streamer that puts out over usb or bypass your internal DAC using DSD capabable, external DAC that puts analogue out to your amp. However, doesn't look like that this was your primarily idea.
In my view, an ALLO USB Sig might fit your use case ??
Best, Tom

Hi Tom, until now I playback my files from my laptop (external disc) via USB hi res supra cable to my amp. But in order avoid cables my first thought was to set up a streamer (I have not got it yet due to CONVID-19) RPi4, 2GB and the hat HIFIBERRY DIGI+PRO. Yet due to amp restrictions as you have mentioned is not possible to playback DSD. Yes, I am considering the USB Signature. I was thinking of building a DIGI ONE Signature player with 2 connections a. connecting an RCA (coaxial input) to my amp and b. connecting a USB input to my amp. In order to avoid the electric noice playback FLAC but I do not know how to skip the noise using USB port.

[nikolaos1969]

2 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

With digi+ pro you can do up to dsd64

using USB cable?

[nikolaos1969]

2 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

With spdif, digi+ pro has two outputs one is spdif/rca and the other is optical/toslink.

 

you mean to use both of them at the same time

[nikolaos1969]

7 minutes ago, DuckToller said:

Hi,

I understand you concern, as much as I know, the ALLO products can be order together or one after one and put together .
If you start with the USBbridge and you are satisfied with the standard power plug, you solved you problem for a minimum of cost. I
f you feel the need to enhance the USB transport of non-DSD files with COAX, you can add the DIGIONE, and even top it with the ultra low power supply Shanti. A reasonable path to find out, I would think. But it's your ears and your head ... 😉
Best, Tom

Hi Tom, do you think that regarding DIGIONE I can operate two connections at the same time one for coaxial for FLAC and one for USB for DSD? But what about the noise that comes from RPi from the USB port?

[nikolaos1969]

18 hours ago, bluesman said:

The digipro will not let you play DSD files through your amplifier because that amp only does DSD via USB.  If DSD is your main concern, the hat will not do anything for you.  

 

This is why I asked what you mean by "streaming".  If the cable you want to eliminate is between your player and the digital inputs on your amplifier, you can't do it.  The DAC in your amplifier cannot be accessed via WiFi, and it won't do DSD via Bluetooth.  So if you're going to do the same thing with a Pi that you do with your laptop, why not just use the laptop?

 

And if you just want to use a Pi as a standalone player instead of your laptop, I'd suggest just trying it first with your USB cable. I run several Pis directly into DACs and am not bothered at all by any noise or noise-induced degradation of sound quality - I simply don't hear it with the Pi 4s.  There are obviously AS participants who are greatly bothered by "USB noise", but neither I nor a lot of others here find it to be a significant concern in our systems.  Why make things more complicated than they need to be?

Hi, the reason to use pi4 as player: a. is to remove cables because the hi res supra cable is 8m long, and this is the distance from CXA81 and laptop, b. I want to stream spotify not via bluetooth but via volumio (bandwidth is larger), c. I want to stick the external disc on pi4 USB port so it should be visible over the network instead of buying a NAS. Searching on the web and asking audiophiles friends I found a magic machine that may resolve the problem, Ideon Audio 3R USB Renaissance mk2 Blackstar edition.

[nikolaos1969]

1 hour ago, stefano_mbp said:

@nikolaos1969 .... why not try raspberry as it is, if you’ll not be satisfied due to electrical noise than you could go on this route as second step.

 

There are other usb regenerators like these:

 

https://ifi-audio.com/products/micro-iusb3-0/

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/usb-regen

 

.... there are different opinions about usb regenerators .... from “snake oil” up to the best solution at all ....

 

hi, yes there are plenty of them. I will try to burn the usb drivers of CXA81 on pi4 sd card. If the sound is no good I will try to use a regenerator with a linear supply unit. Have you tried to stick an external disc on pi instead of using a NAS?

[nikolaos1969]

32 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

@nikolaos1969 ... yes I did ... and discarded this solution.

It works fine up to 1.5/2TB libraries  but mine is 8TB and the indexing process was too slow and searching and “surfing” the library was not so smooth.

My solution is a Nuc8i3bek with Ubuntu and MinimServer, as fluid as velvet ...

Can you pls explain the set up

[nikolaos1969]

4 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

This setup is to share the music library on the network, it is an alternative to a nas.

Ubuntu is a light Linux variant that requires very low power for itself.

Minimserver is a wonderful Upnp server ( https://minimserver.com ) with the exclusive functionality named Intelligent Browsing, very helpful especially with classical music.

Because it is the first time using pi can you tell me all the steps for set up the music library which is on external disc

[nikolaos1969]

9 hours ago, bluesman said:

I don’t think you need USB drivers - USB 2 in all modern Linux variants is class compliant for audio & has been for years.  Your amplifier should accept input from any USB output on a current device with a current operating system.  If you put Volumio on a Pi 4 and connect its USB output to your amplifier’s input, you will get music.

I will do that and if the noice bothers me I will see for the allo USBridge signature or for other devices. The comparison will be the playback from laptop to amp and pi4 to amp using in both cases the USB port.

[nikolaos1969]

18 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

Using Volumio you have three options

usb connected hdd to the raspberry

lan connected nas

lan connected media server (MinimServer or other)

in the configuration settings of Volumio you’ll find them all

if you are starting just now to experiment I suggest you to start with the first option, very simple.
cannot be more precise as I don’t have Volumio installed any more but you can find a detailed user guide here https://volumio.github.io/docs/User_Manual/Quick_Start_Guide.html

What do you use now to playback music files.

[nikolaos1969]

1 minute ago, stefano_mbp said:

On raspberry I use GentooPlayer, for me it is a step forward compared to Volumio, the sound is more organic, detailed and there is more air around the instruments or the voice. It doesn’t have its own interface except for configure it (a little bit more complex compared to Volumio but not impossible), it must be used with a control point app on a tablet or smartphone.

Can I use it via windows laptop. I also use android app for my smartphone.

[nikolaos1969]

5 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

.... you can just configure it using a laptop and accessing to GentooPlayer configuration web page

yes, ok, for config but what about control of music files because mainly I use windows laptop and android app

[nikolaos1969]

Just now, stefano_mbp said:

You missed my post #36

ok sorry, thanks

[nikolaos1969]

40 minutes ago, bluesman said:

You have more options.  The Pi4 has 5 GHz ac WiFi. So wlan connection to either nas or to a network server (but not both) should be fine. My nas and my Roon server are on my lan via Ethernet, and I connect the Pi4 in our living room system via wlan. It sounds great using Volumio, Roon Bridge, or JRiver Media Center driving an SMSL SU8 into a PrimaLuna amplifier powering Focal 726 towers.  

Hi, my current rate is 2.4GHZ so it would be fine. I would try to set up a miniserver as see how it goes. My first concern is about the sound of pi4 without any add ons. If I am not happy I do want to have another option. 1 a regenerate usb, 2. a higher value commercial product.

[nikolaos1969]

1 hour ago, bluesman said:

You don't need a separate server - Volumio will source your files directly from network storage.  I wouldn't store audio files on a HD connected to the Pi by USB, though.  You really don't want to be passing source files in and audio files out the same bus at the same time.  There could be playback issues with large, hi res files like DSD.

I understand that, what would you suggest?

[nikolaos1969]

14 minutes ago, DuckToller said:

Guyz,

I suppose the whole thing looks sometimes a bit overcomplicated to newbies, especially when there are some language conversion issues added. A lot of information that Nikolaos has on his mind is unknownst to us , though we hope to get what he wants and feed him with correct information.
I have met this type of conversation several times with newbies in this forum, and think we - as the ones who have the knowledgebase - need to learn a bit how to handle the newbies and their ideas carefully. From my perspective: This is quite difficult, even for the very experienced ones.
Nikolaos, I have read, that you don't want to use a NAS as an extra entity in your system/network.
Question, can you connect an USB storage to your Router (the one that provides Wifi and Ethernet)?
Attaching storage (the USB disk) there will give you a NAS already. To handle it, you might need to save all downloaded DSD files there, fetch them via Volumio using Ethernet or WifI from the disk, and forward it to your DAC via the USB port of the RPi.
This works from my experience up to DSD256 also over Wi-Fi when I tested it, though I use Ethernet as a standard connection.
Volumio would do the same with your PCM files from that disk, putting them out as well over USB or via the Digi+ (you've mentioned) via COAX.

With both outputs, I would guess that it may get complicated, because it would mean, that you need either to configure the RPI for an automatic output change between the formats, or you need to configure that manually each time you change the format. In case you would experience the USB out as same/same or even better sq-wise than the Digi+, you could abandon this additional card. 
That said, you then have several ways to continue tweaking, however, the RPi is from price/performance ratio actually quite hard to beat. Everything "better" and more comfortable usually comes at some additional cost and some personal investment.

As a starting point you can't do anything wrong with it. I would only go furtther after I'd have experienced some degraded sound quality with this set up. Or if I have enough money to spend to experience incremental upgrades, sometimes more, sometimes less.

The most important  step:
- Set it up and listen to it, don't worry about electrical noise or jitter while you get used to the software, the sound and your setup.
- Start making a plan how to upgrade after you a comfortable with the sound of your system and then only if you detect a problem, if the SQ is not good enough for your ears, or you have excess money to spend.
Personally, I feel that finding the correct software to be used comfortably with mobile phone, tablet or computer is more important for the overall experience than having the state of the art software, which you can't control via http interface. YMMV.

Last word: GUYZ , love your enthusiasm ... pls understand my words as personal reflection and not as personal critic! Thanks.

@DuckToller@bluesman@stefano_mbp thanks all of you for the info, two months ago I have started to upgrade my hifi system so some things are quite new to me. I have sold my NAD C-340, TANNOY MX1 mercury speakers, and SONY CDplayer, YAMAHA tuner, 20 years old best off machines, and bought CXA81 amp and monitor audio silver 500 speakers. My router does not have a USB  port. I am awating to upgrade the line from 25mpbs adsl to 50mbps vdsl. So, either I will purchase a new router to stick my external disk or I will set up a NAS. I am awaiting the pi4 to set up volumio and then I will decide what to do. If the sound is not good for me I will see what I can add to pi4 to sound better or go for a better machine. I think all the components of a hi fi system must suit for your ears. From the software, machines, and cables. What app do you use for volumio.

[nikolaos1969]

9 hours ago, DuckToller said:

Nikolaos, thanks for the picture, 😉
Volumio would be used via http, which means you could use any browser  on the same network with the input volumio.local in the browser address line, alternatively the volumio IP-Address xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx in the specific network. You can use the browser interface for configuration and for standard usage. Works with any device in your network (Phone/Tablet/PC).

If you want to use an app, Bubble UPNP may be the one of choice, if you laptop is on, you could use this as storage device via wifi/ethernet. It is helpful to read a bit about UPNP, for example

not fully new, but very good for the basis

you need to understand some of the terms: Renderer, Control point, NAS, Media Server:

NAS: any storage in the network, which can be accessed via IP connection, best 24/7.  Your USB hard disk, network enabled
Control point: any device capable of HTTP based control in the IP network. Your phone/tablet via http/browser
Media server: Holds the media software, can hold the storage, can be control point , too. Your RPi with Volumio
Media Renderer: Device that puts out the signal out to your chain, in your case it would be your RPi  with Volumio(in case of picture, this could be a TV)

Hope thats helps a bit, Tom
@DuckTollerthanks Tom

 

[nikolaos1969]

On 4/23/2020 at 1:05 AM, DuckToller said:

Nikolaos, thanks for the picture, 😉
Volumio would be used via http, which means you could use any browser  on the same network with the input volumio.local in the browser address line, alternatively the volumio IP-Address xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx in the specific network. You can use the browser interface for configuration and for standard usage. Works with any device in your network (Phone/Tablet/PC).

If you want to use an app, Bubble UPNP may be the one of choice, if you laptop is on, you could use this as storage device via wifi/ethernet. It is helpful to read a bit about UPNP, for example

not fully new, but very good for the basis

you need to understand some of the terms: Renderer, Control point, NAS, Media Server:

NAS: any storage in the network, which can be accessed via IP connection, best 24/7.  Your USB hard disk, network enabled
Control point: any device capable of HTTP based control in the IP network. Your phone/tablet via http/browser
Media server: Holds the media software, can hold the storage, can be control point , too. Your RPi with Volumio
Media Renderer: Device that puts out the signal out to your chain, in your case it would be your RPi  with Volumio(in case of picture, this could be a TV)

Hope thats helps a bit, Tom
 

thanks a lot. Mainly I convert old CDs to FLAC or WAV using Exact Audio Copy or download from rutracker.

[nikolaos1969]

On 4/22/2020 at 2:50 PM, stefano_mbp said:

You missed my post #36

Hi Stefano, are you happy with SOtM SMS-200 Neo, which software do you use?

[nikolaos1969]

On 4/22/2020 at 10:48 PM, bluesman said:

You’re jumping all over the place in this thread. You started by saying that you want to listen to Spotify.  If so, you don’t need any storage to stream from the internet.  You could just use the Spotify app on your laptop or a Pi - you don’t need Volumio.  But you also said that you want to play DSD files.  Unless it changed, Spotify doesn’t stream DSD files - so you need storage for those files somewhere on your network.  They can be on NAS, on a hard drive in or connected to the computer that’s playing them, or on other removable storage media you can connect to that computer.

 

You’re already using a laptop to play music, so you must either have files now or be streaming Spotify or some other web service.  You said in an early post that you wanted to get rid of your USB connection between computer and amplifier.  But that can’t be done because USB is the only input on your amp that will play DSD or DoP.  So why not just keep using the laptop?  Are you playing your own files now?  If so, where are they - on the laptop?

 

If you don’t want to continue playing music from your laptop, a Pi 4 is a great music machine.  Put the Pi on your network by Ethernet or by WiFi.  If you want to have your own DSD files and you have a local network now, I’d add a basic NAS to it on Ethernet. Put the Pi on your network by Ethernet or by WiFi.  Put Volumio on your Raspberry Pi 4, add Spotify as a web stream, connect the Pi to your amplifier by USB, and you’re ready to listen to Spotify (assuming your local network is connected to the internet) and to your own music files.

 

You’re making this much too complicated.

Hi, are you happy with foobar2000

[nikolaos1969]

20 hours ago, bluesman said:

I've used and loved it for about 15 years.  It's an outstanding package, although it requires more fiddling than JRiver, Roon etc. Foobar pioneered many of the features we now take for granted in audio players.  It was one of the first such programs to let you stream over the internet from your own server.  To make the most of it, you have to use the many plug-ins that have been developed for it.  But once you master the ins and outs, there's almost nothing you can't do with it.

 

Even though I use JRiver and Roon, I still use Foobar to rip my CDs.  I don't think the sound quality is any better than most other top quality players from MPD to Roon and beyond, but it's as good as any open source player I've used on any platform.  Library management is a bit clunky, but it handles my 10,000 or so without a problem. It does album art well too.

 

Foobar was developed as a Windows program, but they now have a MacOs beta too.  If you want to run it on Linux, you have to do so on WINE (which works well & I've done it for years - but I wouldn't use it on a Linux box because there are other players that are a lot easier than running Foobar on WINE - and their GUIs are more intuitive in my opinion).  As far as I know, you can't run Foobar2000 on an ARM processor yet - so it's not for a Raspberry Pi.

Thanks for the reply, I have used foobar2000 to playback from external disc on my laptop via USB cable to amp. I have installed the necessary plugins for DSD. Foobar2000 playback DSD files but actually as you can see from the attached file the amp control panel screen discovers ASIO active (PCM mode) instead of DSD mode (I do not know if that seems to be a problem). I find the same with you problems of clunky library management and the foobar2000 controller. I have downloaded Jriver and the library management is more stable and more reliable. I have not tested the app.

[nikolaos1969]

16 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

I configured it to use MPD/dlna. I like it a lot, it is essential and the sound is going better every new firmware release. SOtM is a very careful company with a very good support and releases new firmware updates every 3/4 months.

My choice for MPD over LMS/Squeezelite is mainly due to the availability for MPD of a lot of control point apps (I choose Lumin app) that in conjunction with MinimServer can show a lot of metadata to choose what to play from my local library (I listen mainly classical music and this genre requires the availability of many tags to find exactly what to play).

Last but not least I have also two rpi4 configured with GentooPlayer and MPD enabled and I can manage them all with the same app.

Hi Stefano, so via MPD you can manage 2 rpi4 but with which app ? I mainly listen to minimal music and my favorite musician is Rene Aubry, Emanuele Via, Max Richter, etc. would you recommend sMS-200ultra ?