DSD Frustrations With Manufacturers

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys - Since I've been using HQPlayer more and more, I've run into an issue that is someone similar to several years ago with high resolution PCM. Back in the day some manufacturers didn't support 176.4 kHz, but that was soon fixed.

 

Today, the issue is related to DSD.

 

Most manufacturers view DSD as the following, just taking 44.1 and multiplying it by 64, 128, 256, or 512:

 

DSD / DSD64 = 2.8224 MHz

DSD128 = 5.6448 MHz

DSD256 = 11.2896 MHz

DSD512 = 22.5792 MHz

 

 

However, DSD isn't locked into multiples of 44.1. Proper DSD includes the following, multiplying 64, 128, 256, or 512 by 48.

 

DSD / DSD64 = 3.072 MHz

DSD128 = 6.144 MHz

DSD256 = 12.288 MHz

DSD512 = 24.576 MHz

 

 

 

My issue is that 99.999999% of manufacturers only say their DACs support DSD, DSD128, DSD256, or DSD512. They don't say anything about which sample rate family is supported or if both are supported. Not that big of deal you say? Except, when loud bursts of noise blast through one's speakers when attempting to figure out what is actually supported. 

 

Can manufacturers just specify in their user manuals which rates of DSD are supported? As it is now, it's equivalent of saying that high resolution PCM is supported at 2x, 4x, and 8x, without any mention of 96 kHz or 88.2 kHz etc...

 

OK, rant over for today. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

9 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Please pardon my ignorance,  which DSD source material is based on 48kHz multiples?

 

Don't seem to be offered 3.072MHz music from Blue Coast, Analog Productions, even the pirates... ☠

This has much more to do with apps like HQPlayer that can resample the audio to higher rates and keep multiples of the original rate. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

19 hours ago, Solstice380 said:

 

Or just make their #$%@%^ DACs play the 48K material!!!  Love my dCS Debussy but have to convert everything to 44.1K DSD128.  My Lampi does both. 

Just tested the dCS Rossini and it accepts the following with DoP only.

 

DSD64 = 2.8224 MHz and 3.072 MHz

DSD128 = 5.6448 MHz and 6.144 MHz

[The Computer Audiophile]

Trying to figure out a better way to determine which sample rates are supported, other than pressing play and crossing my fingers. I just don't think there is a good way. 

 

Looking at the Bryston BDA 3.14 I see the following. DSD_U32_BE I believe means it supports native DSD, but there is no indication of which level of DSD (2x, 4x, 8x, etc...) or which sample rate families. Fortunately at least the user manual for the BDA 3.14 says quad DSD. It's ambiguous with respect to which sample rates can do DoP versus native DSD, although one could deduce this based on PCM rates supported etc... but Joe Sixpack isn't going to have any clue. 

 

Frustrating. Guess I just have to press play with crossed fingers. 

 

Bryston BDA3 Audio 2.0 at usb-ci_hdrc.1-1.1, high speed : USB Audio

Playback:
  Status: Stop
  Interface 1
    Altset 1
    Format: S32_LE
    Channels: 2
    Endpoint: 1 OUT (ASYNC)
    Rates: 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000
    Data packet interval: 125 us
    Bits: 24
  Interface 1
    Altset 2
    Format: S16_LE
    Channels: 2
    Endpoint: 1 OUT (ASYNC)
    Rates: 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000
    Data packet interval: 125 us
    Bits: 16
  Interface 1
    Altset 3
    Format: SPECIAL DSD_U32_BE
    Channels: 2
    Endpoint: 1 OUT (ASYNC)
    Rates: 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000
    Data packet interval: 125 us
    Bits: 32

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, 20hertz said:

Chris, are you convinced that upsampling is the way to go now? Do you notice times when it is not better?

Also do you try to feed a DAC its highest native input or just upsample at will?

Thanx

Mike

Much left to research and experiment with, no 100% conclusions. What I've heard has been incredible lately. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, 20hertz said:

Please keep us updated with what and how you are hearing! Much appreciated.

Thanx

Absolutely. This is a really fun part of the hobby. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just testing out the Ayre QB-9 Twenty and found the DAC supports DSD256 at 12.288 MHz (multiples of 48 kHz). However, the front panel display goes blank with this sample rate. Playing DSD256 at 11.2896 MHz, the AB-9 Twenty front panel correctly says 256.

 

@Ryan Berry, can you weigh-in on this one? Is everything playing correctly at both 44.1 and 48 multiples, but just the display doesn't recognize DSD256 at 12.288 MHz?

[The Computer Audiophile]

21 minutes ago, Ryan Berry said:

H

 

Hey Chris,

 

The QB-9 has handlers written for DSD256 at 11.2896 MHz but not 12.288MHz right now.  We looked into this before releasing the QB-9 and could not find any source material that was recorded in a DSD format with a multiple of 48kHz, so it came off as more of a marketing gimmick to us than actually a useful feature and only adds confusion to what DSD256 is.  Adding a handler is REALLY trivial, as I imagine it would be for most DAC manufacturers.  The only hesitation is if there's any actual gain doing so.  If there's some source material out there we're missing, let me know and I'll talk with Ariel some more about it. 

Thanks Ryan.

 

This is more about using apps like HQPlayer to upsample content, using different filters and modulators, to DSD256 and keeping the sample rate as a multiple of the original. I assume the QB-9 upsamples internally to a multiple of the base rate. This is very similar just done outside the DAC and enables the user to select what he prefers sonically.

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

I gather than when converting from say 24/96 PCM to say 44.1x256 DSD that certain filters need less processing when staying within rate family, yet I have not heard that the final result depends on staying within rate family. For chip families such as ESS which operate internally at ?100Mhz we aren't staying with a multiple of either 44.1 nor 48Khz regardless.

Some filters are also 2x, 4x, etc... for example and there's only one way to do that :~)

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, Ryan Berry said:

Hey Chris, I see.  To be honest, we've never been big proponents of upsampling outside of the FPGA, where we can do everything in a single pass to minimize rounding errors as well as ensure that the original data is preserved and not rounded out by some software post-process.  We only can guarantee what WE do internally, so this gives us a bit more control on making sure the end product is as true to the original as possible.  I'm sure you already know how we tend to think of DSD based on posts from Charley over the years, but I still think that converting a 192kHz sample to DSD is a fair argument for a 48kHz-based DSD rate being available if you're really set on doing it.  Let me discuss that aspect with Ariel.  It's just a matter of adding a line to the code and figuring out if there's a good way to display what it's doing with the characters available on the display.  

Thanks for the clear reply. I certainly hear you Ryan. 

 

I love the ability to make my own choice, in essence to have control over what I do when I want to do it, and to turn control over to you when I want. Thus, using HQPlayer when I want to and using the Ayre FPGA when I want. Choice is wonderful :~)

 

I highly recommend checking out @Miska's HQPlayer. I won't speak for him but I'm guessing that anything that's done in an FPGA can also be done with his software. The cool thing is that its got endless power because it runs on full blown PCs. 

 

I'd say leaving the display at 256 no matter if the playback is based on 44.1 or 48k is cool. 

 

Thanks again!

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

An easy way that I’ve always looked at the sample rate family issue is to consider how it works when downsampling. 
 

A recording done at 88.2 can easily be made ready for CD at 44.1 by removing every other sample. No math involved. 
 

Granted this is going the opposite way (down vs up sampling), but it’s easy to comprehend. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, Ryan Berry said:

It doesn't eliminate some of our other issues with the format as a whole

What I wouldn’t give for an entertaining Charley rant on how DSD came to be, as I sit in my quarantined listening room :~)

[The Computer Audiophile]

17 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Without proper decimation filter that would give you plenty of aliasing, as all the content between 22.05 and 44.1 kHz would appear in the 0 - 22.05 kHz band with inverse spectrum.

 

Same way, you could upsample by copying every sample twice, but without proper interpolation filter this would again produce images of content from 0 - 22.05 kHz band between 22.05 and 44.1 kHz again with inverse spectrum. Note that most DAC chips use this method at and above 8x rates.

 

Absolutely. Mine was an errant oversimplification. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, Norton said:

I’m having a frustration with Roon on this very topic.  My DAC maxes out at 44.1> DSD128 = 5.6448 MHz.  Using HQP by itself, I still get DSD replay from a 48 rate family file ( I presume at  DSD64 = 3.072 MHz?), but using Roon with HQP my DAC always says it’s receiving PCM 384 (or sometimes 192) if I try transcoding a 48 rate file to DSD. Roon works fine at DSD 128 via HQP if I stick with 44.1 family files.

Can you make sure about the sample rates in HQP?

 

When you play 48 base content does HQP say 3.072 MHz?

 

How are you connecting to your DAC? What DAC?

[The Computer Audiophile]

@Norton When I play 192 content Roon / HQP says DSD256x48. What does Roon say for you?

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

23 minutes ago, Norton said:

Yes when I play 48 base content with or without Roon HQP says 3.072.

 

However, maybe I’m mistaken about 48 base with HQP alone.  I’m sure my DAC showed a DSD input with a 24/96 file,  but on repetition I can only get it to show 384. So maybe not Roon-specific after all?

 

Problem  goes away if I disable autorate family.

Which DAC are you using for this?

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, Norton said:

Resonessence Mirus

Does it support native DSD and DoP?

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, Norton said:

Just DoP.

Can you say what the current problem is one more time? I went back through the thread and got confused. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, Norton said:

Thanks, I don’t think there is a problem as such.  When playing 48 base files as double DSD I thought HQP was fine by itself (DAC showing DSD128) but not when combined with Roon (DAC showed 384).  However, I can’t replicate this as  DAC read out is now 384 even with HQP by itself.  Turning auto rate family off gets me DSD128 from a 48 base file via HQP and Roon with no issues.

 

Even though it copes with 5.6 fine, I guess what I don’t understand is why my DAC  won’t play a 48  base file as  DSD at all (even 3.072) via HQP if auto rate family is engaged. But on the scale of human suffering....

 

 

I certainly hear you. I'm guessing you've messed with the 48k settings in HQP?

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

26 minutes ago, Norton said:

Ah, I don’t see that setting, is this a version 4 thing (I’m using a later version of 3)?

Yes, version four. Must be an equivalent in v3.