CD Availability Nearing It's End And The Consequences

[TubeLover]

Just checked the numbers on vinyl sales vs CD's for 2019. Per CNET, over the first six months of 2019, 8.6 million units of vinyl were sold, vs 18.6 million units of cd's. I'm completely shocked it was that close.......what has the world come to? CD sales are dropping far faster than was expected. Both they, and other sources are now saying that CD sales are dropping so quickly that they will be outsold by vinyl by the end of 2020. That will, for all intents and purposes, mean the end of owning any music, excepting downloads (which can also be lost in a hard drive crash).  

 

Millennial's caused near destruction of the music business,first with Napster and other methods of stealing music, and later, the incredibly short sighted purchase of just single songs, in a horribly limited audio format from Itunes (the purveyor of all evil). I still find it amazing to note that there seems to be no understanding of the concept of the importance of listening to an artists entire album. Due to this overall situation, in our current world, the vast percentage of musical artists have lost untold amounts of deserved incomes. They can literally only survive via touring now. And survive is about all that smaller, lesser known acts are managing.  

 

Now, with this far faster than expected dropoff in cd sales and, before long, availability, I will almost certainly lose the ability to be able to listen to many wonderful, yet somewhat obscure bands, especially in the Celtic, folk and alternative genre's, that do not appear on streaming, or may, if they even appear, have only one or two albums (out of many) available there. These groups or individuals that I am speaking of have only ever had cd's as their available format to release new music. These artist also never have availability in Hi-Rez,. Not to mention that even in those other situations in the music world where Hi-Rez downloads are available, they are far more expensive than a cd, and at best half the same number could be purchased for the same amount. 

 

All of this could end up being the equivalent of a music virus. Dire times are upon us in many ways, it would seem.   

 

JC 

[John Dyson]

CD is the lowest risk way of getting pristine POP material.  Downloads are sometimes safe, but a lot of the stuff cannot be trusted.  At least, with CDs you can search around until you get one with proper mastering.

 

[Rexp]

The indroduction of CD was a crime against humanity - good riddance! 

[TubeLover]

8 minutes ago, Rexp said:

The indroduction of CD was a crime against humanity - good riddance! 

Well, few of us can afford the skyrocketing price of reel to reel. The only superior format. 

Vinyl was a necessary evil before technology made listening to clicks and pops, and records wearing out through play irrelevant. 

 

Not to mention, currently, not many music lovers can afford a $10k turntable system (minimum) which is necessary to provide high quality vinyl reproduction. 

 

JC

[AnotherSpin]

31 minutes ago, TubeLover said:

Well, few of us can afford the skyrocketing price of reel to reel. The only superior format. 

Vinyl was a necessary evil before technology made listening to clicks and pops, and records wearing out through play irrelevant. 

 

Not to mention, currently, not many music lovers can afford a $10k turntable system (minimum) which is necessary to provide high quality vinyl reproduction. 

 

JC

 

I don't remember the quality of the audio worrying me on vinyl days. Everything sounded quite natural. And only a few CDs could come close to that simple but hard to achieve analogue standard. The digital is inhumane. Yeah, pops and clicks were upsetting. It's a question of taste and the ability to adapt to natural wear and tear. Rubbed jeans are preferable to nylon pants, imho.

[Rexp]

Sure, plenty of folks like CD, I just don't take audio advice from them. I'd also strongly advise any nooby reading this not to take audio advice from anyone who doesn't run an analog source. 

[TubeLover]

1 minute ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

I don't remember the quality of the audio worrying me on vinyl days. Everything sounded quite natural. And only a few CDs could come close to that simple but hard to achieve analogue standard. The digital is inhumane. Yeah, pops and clicks were upsetting. It's a question of taste and the ability to adapt to natural wear and tear. Rubbed jeans are preferable to nylon pants, imho.

No question, especially in the early days of the introduction of cd's, the digital signature was simply too strident and analyitcal in many cases. As the years went on,  the masterings for CD's, the DAC and digital sections in the players improved. Thats why cd's became the choice for something on the order 80- 90% of audiophiles who, over time, dumped vinyl as the format they purchased. Out of perhaps a dozen serious audiophiles and musicophiles that I personally know well, only two have been long term, primary vinyl only users all this time.  

 

I recall the last large scale Detroit area audio show, The AK Fest, perhaps a dozen or so years back. Out of nearly fifty rooms where components and systems were being demoed, only four had turntables and vinyl in evidence. The vast majority were cd based demoes, along with a few reel to reels as sources, and perhaps ten early adapter laptop and digital file based rooms using Amarra, as I recall. That was the status quo at the time. 

 

To each his own as far as what format they pledge allegiance to.

 

I am just very concerned that my future ability to be able to access some music that I easily can now, will be gone with the disappearance of the cd format for reasons I noted in my previous post. And again, the music from the many less known groups/individuals that I always will be unavailable to me in any remaining format.   

 

JC

[AnotherSpin]

19 minutes ago, TubeLover said:

No question, especially in the early days of the introduction of cd's, the digital signature was simply too strident and analyitcal in many cases. As the years went on,  the masterings for CD's, the DAC and digital sections in the players improved. Thats why cd's became the choice for something on the order 80- 90% of audiophiles who, over time, dumped vinyl as the format they purchased. Out of perhaps a dozen serious audiophiles and musicophiles that I personally know well, only two have been long term, primary vinyl only users all this time.  

 

I recall the last large scale Detroit area audio show, The AK Fest, perhaps a dozen or so years back. Out of nearly fifty rooms where components and systems were being demoed, only four had turntables and vinyl in evidence. The vast majority were cd based demoes, along with a few reel to reels as sources, and perhaps ten early adapter laptop and digital file based rooms using Amarra, as I recall. That was the status quo at the time. 

 

To each his own as far as what format they pledge allegiance to.

 

I am just very concerned that my future ability to be able to access some music that I easily can now, will be gone with the disappearance of the cd format for reasons I noted in my previous post. And again, the music from the many less known groups/individuals that I always will be unavailable to me in any remaining format.   

 

JC

 

People almost always prefer the convenient to the best. May I conclude from your handle that you are familiar with tube audio? Me too, and I like the sound of tube audio much more than sound from transistor, but I have long since switched to solid state equipment.

[Summit]

11 hours ago, TubeLover said:

Just checked the numbers on vinyl sales vs CD's for 2019. Per CNET, over the first six months of 2019, 8.6 million units of vinyl were sold, vs 18.6 million units of cd's. I'm completely shocked it was that close.......what has the world come to? CD sales are dropping far faster than was expected. Both they, and other sources are now saying that CD sales are dropping so quickly that they will be outsold by vinyl by the end of 2020. That will, for all intents and purposes, mean the end of owning any music, excepting downloads (which can also be lost in a hard drive crash).  

 

Millennial's caused near destruction of the music business,first with Napster and other methods of stealing music, and later, the incredibly short sighted purchase of just single songs, in a horribly limited audio format from Itunes (the purveyor of all evil). I still find it amazing to note that there seems to be no understanding of the concept of the importance of listening to an artists entire album. Due to this overall situation, in our current world, the vast percentage of musical artists have lost untold amounts of deserved incomes. They can literally only survive via touring now. And survive is about all that smaller, lesser known acts are managing.  

 

Now, with this far faster than expected dropoff in cd sales and, before long, availability, I will almost certainly lose the ability to be able to listen to many wonderful, yet somewhat obscure bands, especially in the Celtic, folk and alternative genre's, that do not appear on streaming, or may, if they even appear, have only one or two albums (out of many) available there. These groups or individuals that I am speaking of have only ever had cd's as their available format to release new music. These artist also never have availability in Hi-Rez,. Not to mention that even in those other situations in the music world where Hi-Rez downloads are available, they are far more expensive than a cd, and at best half the same number could be purchased for the same amount. 

 

All of this could end up being the equivalent of a music virus. Dire times are upon us in many ways, it would seem.   

 

JC 

 

If it was just Millennial's that streamed music and had stopped buying physical records, it wouldn’t have that big of an impact on the music business.

 

The sale of vinyl is probable much larger because of the big second hand market which I don’t believe they have accounted for.

 

For the record (hehe) am no Millennial.

[Norton]

It’s too big a leap from CD sales declining to an inability to own digital music.

 

Firstly, I’ve not noticed the music I’m interested in, at least, disappearing  from CD.  On the contrary, there’s been something of an explosion in the works of 19th and 20th c English composers on CD which suggests it’s a medium well suited to low volume niches (just how many copies of an Arnell symphony CD  does Dutton sell for example?).

 

So I would suggest that providing there is some market for it (which your preferences suggest there is) CD will continue.  Maybe after sales have plummeted it will arise as an artisan product, on audiophile quality polycarbonate?

 

I don’t  get though why a CD is in any way better to a download in terms of provenance, reliability, mastering?  The medium is not the music and in effect, a CD is just a download burnt to disc.  Not that the download market is that healthy though either.

[CatManDo]

I no longer buy CDs for new releases (I usually go for the download, especially when there is a hi-rez option), but as a jazz collector, CDs are often the only option to get lesser known older albums.

 

A lot of stuff released in the 1990's and 2000's on smaller labels is not available in download stores, while second hand CDs (most titles being out of print) can still be found on Amazon. Many times, a CD including shipping is cheaper than a FLAC download (when available).

 

That being said, I see myself going to lossless streaming in the near future. Collecting music makes less and less sense. I ripped all my discs last year, they are now just filling up space.

[Iving]

On the stats I would reinforce what has been said about the hidden s/h market - there's a lot of trading and collecting still going on.

 

Like others I rue the cultural expiry of the Album.

 

Vinyl is and always will be sacred unless it is infected with digits. I listen to the music not the noise. It is indeed the most "natural" sounding medium. [I mean just look at the lengths we go to in order to mitigate digititis.] An expensive record deck is only needed for resolution or Hi-Fi. There's plenty of fun and goose bumps to be had even playing 45s on a mid-range player thru sympathetic amp and speakers. Wear and tear as such (cf. scratches etc) is irrelevant except for the most battered records. 

 

That said I listen to my computer-based system for both convenience and enhanced excitement. Recently I discovered Sandy Posey playing a trashed 7". Of itself that revelation was exquisite. But I just had to go buy a CD to sustain the thrill. Nowadays my main system is engineered for playback from an Optane drive.

 

All my digital music is ripped CDs. I never download or stream music.

 

I have more music from ripped CDs than I can listen to in my lifetime.

 

I agree that I can get most anything I want on CD. In the case of exceptions I'm willing to accept I must buy the 78 or the record. The only significant drawback to listening to ripped CDs is offensive, loud (re-)mastering.

 

I do fear I may end up with tons of shellac, vinyl and CDs that nobody will want when I am gone.

 

Even so I hope I never succumb to any online or subscription-based music source. CDs will continue to be vital to me and that's my main appreciation of the OP.

 

You never know. Most s/h (house clearance) shellac and vinyl is worthless. But there are gems, and the collector's market has always been there. Perhaps in time many CDs will remain appreciated if for no other reason than the commercial peddlers charging too much for online delivery or messing up the masters. Is MQA a case in point - although I have no experience and don't need to turn over those stones. Plus as has been mentioned the risk of hard drive failure etc.

 

The combined tonnage of all my 78s, records and CDs does sometimes cause me to stop for reflection.

 

In my early days, an honest Hi-Fi dealer told me I should spend more on music than equipment. Perhaps doing so is the hallmark of the true music lover.

 

Edit: I nearly forgot to mention nostalgia. Many folks regretted jettisoning their records - years after-the-fact. You don't know what you've got till it's gone.

[Summit]

Regarding the so called destruction of the music business .

 

“Thanks to the still-expanding streaming industry, overall music consumption grew in double-digits for the second year in the row. But the way we think of “music consumption” itself is permanently changed, and it doesn’t show any signs of going back to what it used to be.”

 

 

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/album-sales-dying-as-fast-as-streaming-services-rising-774563/

 

 

[John Dyson]

5 hours ago, Rexp said:

The indroduction of CD was a crime against humanity - good riddance! 

The travesty was the horrid, irresponsible, demonic bad mastering being used on CDs since their inception.

 

[John Dyson]

4 hours ago, TubeLover said:

No question, especially in the early days of the introduction of cd's, the digital signature was simply too strident and analyitcal in many cases. As the years went on,  the masterings for CD's, the DAC and digital sections in the players improved. Thats why cd's became the choice for something on the order 80- 90% of audiophiles who, over time, dumped vinyl as the format they purchased. Out of perhaps a dozen serious audiophiles and musicophiles that I personally know well, only two have been long term, primary vinyl only users all this time.  

 

I recall the last large scale Detroit area audio show, The AK Fest, perhaps a dozen or so years back. Out of nearly fifty rooms where components and systems were being demoed, only four had turntables and vinyl in evidence. The vast majority were cd based demoes, along with a few reel to reels as sources, and perhaps ten early adapter laptop and digital file based rooms using Amarra, as I recall. That was the status quo at the time. 

 

To each his own as far as what format they pledge allegiance to.

 

I am just very concerned that my future ability to be able to access some music that I easily can now, will be gone with the disappearance of the cd format for reasons I noted in my previous post. And again, the music from the many less known groups/individuals that I always will be unavailable to me in any remaining format.   

 

JC

I don't know if you have read the results of my research - the original 'digital' CD sound was a heinous pattern of mismastering that I call 'FeralA'.  It is an EQed DolbyA compression (without the decoding expansion.)  The result of that kind of twisted mastering is almost plausible, and ONCE IN A WHILE does sound good, but it is not the natrual sound of decoded DolbyA.   This scourge has been prevalent since the beginning of CD, and still persists.   Take a look at the comments about FeralA and decoded DolbyA.  The decoding technology for digital releases is not 100% perfected yet, but is getting VERY VERY close.  (This is NOT commercial snake-oil, but is quite the opposite.)

 

John

 

[Iving]

27 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

I don't know if you have read the results of my research - the original 'digital' CD sound was a heinous pattern of mismastering that I call 'FeralA'.  It is an EQed DolbyA compression (without the decoding expansion.)  The result of that kind of twisted mastering is almost plausible, and ONCE IN A WHILE does sound good, but it is not the natrual sound of decoded DolbyA.   This scourge has been prevalent since the beginning of CD, and still persists.   Take a look at the comments about FeralA and decoded DolbyA.  The decoding technology for digital releases is not 100% perfected yet, but is getting VERY VERY close.  (This is NOT commercial snake-oil, but is quite the opposite.)

 

John

 

 

May I politely ask you to summarise:

1. How I can know whether a given rip has DolbyA compression without the decoding expansion; and,

2. In such cases whether it is possible to correct the matter without advanced technical knowledge or expertise - you have developed something?

 

Thank you

[John Dyson]

1 hour ago, Iving said:

 

May I politely ask you to summarise:

1. How I can know whether a given rip has DolbyA compression without the decoding expansion; and,

2. In such cases whether it is possible to correct the matter without advanced technical knowledge or expertise - you have developed something?

 

Thank you

I know this is somewhat off topic, but might be of interest to those who aren't into my 'fringe' interests :-).  Further discussion might best be private or refer to my 'FeralA' commentary in the 'General' area of the forum.  Most of my communications in AS, but also I pop up in other forums from time to time -- but I 'live' here most of the time.   Below is a general & rambling discussion about FeralA and a working solution for it:

====================================================================

 

There has been an experimental decoder of such recordings, and it is moving from 'experimental' to being 'usable' for motivated indvidiuals.  It is NOT commercial, and it is NOT 'snake-oil', but fairly sophsticated DSP software that runs on Windows and/or Linux.

 

1) The 'sound' of the compression can be subtle, and I am not 100% accurate detecting it, even with my long experience working with the decoding methods, but here are some hints:  1) a 'swishy' high end, high hats/cymbals having a rather strong sense of HF compression/too soft.  2) A woody lower midrange, almost like a boost in the 500-1kHz freq range.  It is almost repulsive when not use to it, and encourages turning down the level.  3) Hiss...  Older recordings REALLY needed DolbyA for NOISE REDUCTION, and without full decoding, tends to push the hiss up on older stuff.  4) On a spectogram, you can sometimes see a noise band that gets stronger above about 12kHz -- more than what tape noise would by itself.  5) Distorted stereo image, I notice a 'hole' in the image between 90deg and 45deg (0deg being straight forward, 90deg being left or right.)  6) Strange bass sound.

The compression is 10dB below about 100Hz, 10dB from 3k to 9kHz, 15dB from 9kHz to 20+kHz, and there is active compression at lower levels in the 80-3kHz range, where it is pinned at no compression down to -20dB or so in the midrange.  DolbyA compression is NOT active much above -10dB, so doens't give the 'ducking' quite like a normal compressor might.

 

(NOT ALL SIGNAL MODIFICATIONS ARE MANIFEST STRONGLY -- but the recordings do have those characteristics.)  'FeralA' is a 'stealthy' form of damage esp if one is accomodated to it!!!

 

2)  I have been working on a true, high quality DolbyA compatible decoder which is essentially complete and incredibly accurate/smooth/clean.  'Correcting' or 'decoding' these mismastered recordings requires a corrective EQ back to raw DolbyA, and then do a proper DolbyA decoding.

 

The FeralA  'decoding' software combination is just starting to be plausibly full quality, even though the results had been significantly improving the FeralA sound for several months.  Perhaps the best description is that the decoding results have gone from 'better than original FeralA material', to 'accurate, near master-tape'.

 

The decoding software for the 'FeralA' recordings is free-to-use, but is unfortunately a Windows (or Linux) command line program.   It takes CD .wav file input and creates an 88.2k/FP .wav file output (can also create 24 bit unsigned .wav file also.)   The FeralA decoding software is NOT commercial and money does not change hands for use as the consumer recording converter.

 

So -- the internal operations in the software to correct the recordings is:

From CD ->  corrective EQ -> DolbyA decode -> Ideally, hopefully, more clean sounding recording.

 

================================

As a base, there is a DolbyA decoder, which ALONE  is NOT intended for consumers.   However, I have added some EQ which does the corrective EQ so that the DolbyA decoding mechanism can finish the correction.   When running the professional DolbyA decoder in the 'FeralA' mode as I call it, then it becomes a piece of software that is free to use.

================================

 

The 'FeralA' decoding software is still experimental, but is getting VERY CLOSE to fully working.  Originally, it was a 'science project' to use it, because the decoding required EXTERNAL EQ and using the DolbyA decoder separately.  Now, it is all built in, and I offer the software for free use in 'FeralA' mode.

 

When the '--fa' command line switch is used, it is NOT commercial software and is intended for anyone to use responsibly.   Even though there might be commercial software in the future, the FA decoder that I wrote is NOT commercial and there is zero motive for any direct profit.  It is a learning tool and a technology platform where a plug-in developer in the future might be motivated to develop a 'FeralA' decoder and/or high quality/complete DolbyA compatible decoder.  (It is higher quality than the original DolbyA HW, not because of 'precision', but instead it is improved algorithms.)

 

So -- that is the jist of it...  If anyone needs a DolbyA decoder also (effectively a real product, paradoxically a part of the non-commercial FeralA decoder), the DHNRDS DA mode can produce almost astonishingly clean and beautiful results -- it must be VERY VERY good at decoding DolbyA, because the FeralA decoding is necessarily working with damaged recordings, and the DolbyA decoder must be very tolerant and able to ferret out the distortions that would otherwise be created...

 

John

 

[Foggie]

3 hours ago, Norton said:

I don’t  get though why a CD is in any way better to a download in terms of provenance, reliability, mastering?  The medium is not the music and in effect, a CD is just a download burnt to disc.  Not that the download market is that healthy though either.

While I mostly agree, as the OP indicated, at least with a CD you can find/research/search for a specific mastered/cataloged # CD.  With download there is rarely if ever any info or metadata as to the source.  I usually look to see if there is a quality digital version and buy that, if not I'll buy the CD

 

I wish the digital version provided that info, which is such a freaking pet peeve of mine.  Why the digital version and or sites providing these files can't put ALL the proper *&@#$ metadata in the file is beyond me.  You buy a CD, burn it wit proper software and the file is tagged etc..  Additionally, its not like the digital download is cheaper than the CD.  Argghh!! Rant off

[firedog]

29 minutes ago, Foggie said:

While I mostly agree, as the OP indicated, at least with a CD you can find/research/search for a specific mastered/cataloged # CD.  With download there is rarely if ever any info or metadata as to the source.  I usually look to see if there is a quality digital version and buy that, if not I'll buy the CD

 

I wish the digital version provided that info, which is such a freaking pet peeve of mine.  Why the digital version and or sites providing these files can't put ALL the proper *&@#$ metadata in the file is beyond me.  You buy a CD, burn it wit proper software and the file is tagged etc..  Additionally, its not like the digital download is cheaper than the CD.  Argghh!! Rant off

It simply shows the contempt the recording industry has for it's customers, especially it's best ones. The cost to providing that info is next to nothing, yet it isn't done in most cases, even in expensive audiophile or deluxe versions. Few businesses treat their customers with such lack of respect. 

[John Dyson]

2 hours ago, firedog said:

It simply shows the contempt the recording industry has for it's customers, especially it's best ones. The cost to providing that info is next to nothing, yet it isn't done in most cases, even in expensive audiophile or deluxe versions. Few businesses treat their customers with such lack of respect. 

The worst lack of respect has been the sales of cr*p mastered material since the inception of DolbyA.   While they would still produce vinyl that is correctly mastered, the same CD would be the 'different' kind of recording.  The only two rational reasons for cheating everyone:  1)  they didn't want the consumers to have the family jewels, so give them defective product.  2) it was easier to do the digital version incorrectly because of a process issue.

Either reason shows contempt against the customer.  They must have known that they aren't selling what we early CD customers had expected.

Of course, imy story of being an audiophile, I got disgusted and walked away back in the late 1980s/early 1990s.

 

John

 

[Foggie]

@firedog @John Dyson The one saving grace in so far as technology (I guess), are some of the artist that are lucky enough, knowledgeable enough, have the resources and $ produce/record their own music.  They are many times also the ones that actually care about the sound + quality.  Its a small percentage as well as genre I suppose too.

[NOMBEDES]

4 hours ago, firedog said:

It simply shows the contempt the recording industry has for it's customers, especially it's best ones. The cost to providing that info is next to nothing, yet it isn't done in most cases, even in expensive audiophile or deluxe versions. Few businesses treat their customers with such lack of respect. 

 

One wonders how a industry which has "contempt" for customers has lasted for 100 years. The sins of the industry are an outrage.  From the theft of recording revenue from the founding Black blues artists and other, perhaps unschooled young stars....it still goes on today.

You would think that at some point someone would be driven to extreme retribution.   

[JoeWhip]

Do we really need another cd v. Vinyl thread? 

[AnotherSpin]

15 minutes ago, NOMBEDES said:

 

One wonders how a industry which has "contempt" for customers has lasted for 100 years. The sins of the industry are an outrage.  From the theft of recording revenue from the founding Black blues artists and other, perhaps unschooled young stars....it still goes on today.

You would think that at some point someone would be driven to extreme retribution.   

 

The same is true for any type of industry.

[TubeLover]

12 hours ago, Rexp said:

Sure, plenty of folks like CD, I just don't take audio advice from them. I'd also strongly advise any nooby reading this not to take audio advice from anyone who doesn't run an analog source. 

I owned turntables and vinyl based systems exclusively from 1968 through 1990, and have been involved with vinyl in one way or another, for 50 years? How about you? 

 

JC