Audiophile fuses

[pkane2001]

17 minutes ago, CG said:

 

Oh, brother.  

 

The specific thing I pointed to was how differences in temperature at junctions of different metals cause thermal EMF.  Like you'd find in fuses.  I'd point out that Volta discovered this in the 18th century with Seebeck rediscovering it years later.  Both observed it first, and then the physics behind it was more careful calculated.  That was some time before opamps came along.

 

As I SPECIFICALLY said previously, more than once, I don't know whether this level of signal distortion can affect the sound of an associated amplifier.  Since lots of signals are passing through the fuse in addition to the "pure" 50/60 Hz power - including signals generated by the rectifiers within the power supply itself - it's conceivable that these signals could be modulated by thermal effects at bimetallic connections and radiate the modulated noise into nearby circuitry or onto connecting cables.  From there it's hard to predict what will happen without a thorough analysis or comprehensive measurement.  Most audio amplifiers are very non-linear at frequencies above the audio band where these effects might manifest themselves.  So, who knows?  I'm not quite sure why applying a certain amount of rigor to the analysis is so offensive.

 

But, again, this is not my point, nor has it been.

 

Some, maybe many, "objectivists" look down upon and mock people who might be called "subjectivists". They demand absolute proof, not only with electrical and/or sonic measurements, but with some form of communal blind testing of the human aural response for anything to be considered real.  And, then, it's often dismissed anyway.  

 

Yet, when they are asked about why this or that might be possible, the response is condescending and often based on acclamation rather than a technical explanation.  To me, and I may be alone on this, that is as much cognitive bias as they accuse subjectivists of.  

 

I find cavalierly dismissing people's observations to be very closed minded.  The observation might be misleading due to what could be called experimental errors.  Or, it could be plain wrong due to plain bad observing.  But, you don't know until you examine the observation more closely.  If there's nothing there after all, ok.  But, maybe there is.  I get the idea that these same people would dismiss Volta and Seebeck, too.

 

So, if them's the rules, fine.  I'd think an open mind would be relevant, but perhaps not.  I'm out.

 

Don't get upset, we're just having a discussion. This is, after all, an objective thread about fuses. Don't twist this into the usual "all objectivists are always mocking all subjectivists" argument, it's really not worth the time or the effort.

 

You introduced a paper into the thread that addresses specifically opamps and data converters, which are extremely sensitive circuits unlike power supplies. You've asked if anyone considered the possible effects of a fuse asymmetry on distortions. My answer was: yes, and this effect is irrelevant when talking about a fuse. I gave examples as to why. You, instead, start talking about mocking people, demanding absolute proofs and communal blind testing, closed mindedness, being condescending, cognitive bias, etc., etc., etc. All these things that have not been mentioned once in this thread. Are you trying to start a fight, or would you rather have an intelligent discussion?

[pkane2001]

@sandyk your Disagree votes are like a badge of honor: I love receiving them! Keep it up. 

 

Stay safe and disagreeable, my friend ✌️

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, CG said:

I may be alone on this, that is as much cognitive bias as they accuse subjectivists of.  

I find cavalierly dismissing people's observations to be very closed minded.  The observation might be misleading due to what could be called experimental errors.  Or, it could be plain wrong due to plain bad observing.  But, you don't know until you examine the observation more closely.  If there's nothing there after all, ok.

Well said, and you are definitely not alone. Do not be too concerned, this thread was click-bait from the beginning

Cheers

David

[CG]

19 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Don't get upset, we're just having a discussion. This is, after all, an objective thread about fuses. Don't twist this into the usual "all objectivists are always mocking all subjectivists" argument, it's really not worth the time or the effort.

 

You introduced a paper into the thread that addresses specifically opamps and data converters, which are extremely sensitive circuits unlike power supplies. You've asked if anyone considered the possible effects of a fuse asymmetry on distortions. My answer was: yes, and this effect is irrelevant when talking about a fuse. I gave examples as to why. You, instead, start talking about mocking people, demanding absolute proofs and communal blind testing, closed mindedness, being condescending, cognitive bias, etc., etc., etc. All these things that have not been mentioned once in this thread. Are you trying to start a fight, or would you rather have an intelligent discussion?

 

You were cordial enough to respond, so you deserve the same consideration from me.

 

If you look back at this thread, at least 3/4 have indeed been mocking of "subjectivists" and the idea that an effect people say they have observed couldn't possibly be.  (Chris may have deleted some in the mean time...)  That is observable history and speaks for itself.  Not one of those comments has included any sort of proof or even technical discussion.  Hence my own comments about close mindedness and the like.  If I misread the posts, that's on me.

 

Discussing the technical details here is really not worth the effort, as you say.  It's the wrong place and the wrong subject.  It'd require lots of measurements, lots of simulations, and lots of calculations.  And, even then, there's probably little chance of any kind of resolution. That's simply the nature of dorm room debates and discussions on the internet.

 

As for me, I always find it uncomfortable to dismiss other people's observations in anything without examination.  That may be my problem and mine alone.  Everybody else is allowed to hold onto their own dogma - that's mine.  I'll explore this on my own.

 

So, I'll leave it, and this sub-forum, at that.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

11 minutes ago, CG said:

 

As for me, I always find it uncomfortable to dismiss other people's observations in anything without examination.  That may be my problem and mine alone.  

 

As said, you are not alone.

 

11 minutes ago, CG said:

Everybody else is allowed to hold onto their own dogma - that's mine.  I'll explore this on my own.

 

I would recommend we all be less doctrinaire.

 

11 minutes ago, CG said:

So, I'll leave it, and this sub-forum, at that.

 

Please don't. You would be playing straight into the hands of the troll who started this thread and for the specific reason to incite belittling remarks about subjectivists. Chris removed a lot already.

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

@sandyk your Disagree votes are like a badge of honor: I love receiving them! Keep it up. 

 

Stay safe and disagreeable, my friend ✌️

 

 

This thread is clearly Click bait started by an A.S.R member , given that the OP initially asked this  Audiophile Fuses question here:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/silent-angel-bonn-n8-audio-grade-ethernet-switch.12360/page-5

So why as an A.S.R. member, didn't you or other A.S.R members provide Objective  replies in the ASR forum where measurements are all that matters, and that you love to keep quoting from, instead of demanding Objective proof   here ?  

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, sandyk said:

 

This thread is clearly Click bait started by an A.S.R member , given that the OP originally asked this  Audiophile Fuses question here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/silent-angel-bonn-n8-a  

So why as an A.S.R. member, didn't you or other A.S.R members provide Objective  replies in the ASR forum where measurements are all that matters, and that you love to keep quoting from, instead of here ?  

 

Not sure what you're talking about, Alex. Who asked audiophile fuse question and where? Your link is to an ethernet switch review on ASR and has nothing to do with fuses, as far as I can tell. And no, I don't read every post here or on ASR, so forgive me if I don't answer them all.

[sandyk]

9 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Not sure what you're talking about, Alex. Who asked audiophile fuse question and where? Your link is to an ethernet switch review on ASR and has nothing to do with fuses, as far as I can tell. And no, I don't read every post here or on ASR, so forgive me if I don't answer them all.

 

Seraph  asked this same question in #83 of that thread. Yet there are no replies there.

 

Friday at 4:00 PM
#83
soekris said:
Hi Amir: Next of things to test, Those Audiophile Rated Fuses.... Or maybe those exotic Power Cables. All being promoted while ignoring the effects of the cabling from the Wall Outlet all the way back to the Power Station....

Audiophile rated fuses? Surely there is no such thing? Please share a link.

Audiofools Inc.

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, sandyk said:

 

Seraph  asked this same question in #83 of that thread. Yet there are no replies there.

 

Ok... I can't speak as to why others didn't answer there, but I can tell you why I didn't: I didn't see or read that post. Is that a good enough reason? 😃

 

[sandyk]

7 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Ok... I can't speak as to why others didn't answer there, but I can tell you why I didn't: I didn't see or read that post. Is that a good enough reason? 😃

 

 

The OP is demanding Objective proof in this thread , when it can't even be provided by the Measurements fanatics in A.S.R without an indepth investigation as suggested by Soekris,  yet you expect this Objective proof to be given here by A.S. members who aren't in the main "Measurements are all that matters"  fanatics like yourself .

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, sandyk said:

 

The OP is demanding Objective proof in this thread , when it can't even be provided by the Measurements fanatics in A.S.R without an indepth investigation as suggested by Soekris,  yet you expect this Objective proof to be given here by A.S. members who aren't in the main Measurements are all that matters fanatics.

 

Alex, you just can't help but to try to pick a fight. Show me where I asked for proof of anything in this thread please. I think I'll just leave you on my ignore list for a while longer.

 

[sandyk]

35 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Alex, you just can't help but to try to pick a fight. Show me where I asked for proof of anything in this thread please. I think I'll just leave you on my ignore list for a while longer.

 

 

#27 was provocative and not needed, and it wasn't the first time either.

 

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 

Seraph  asked this same question in #83 of that thread. Yet there are no replies there.

 

Friday at 4:00 PM
#83
soekris said:
Hi Amir: Next of things to test, Those Audiophile Rated Fuses.... Or maybe those exotic Power Cables. All being promoted while ignoring the effects of the cabling from the Wall Outlet all the way back to the Power Station....

Audiophile rated fuses? Surely there is no such thing? Please share a link.

Audiofools Inc.

 

If you follow his link to the nonsense on Audiofools Inc.

you will see his agenda clearly stated. Skip to "Targets" , the top of the hit list being sponsorship based audio forums (like AS)

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

32 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

#27 was provocative and not needed, and it wasn't the first time either.

 

 

Stirring up trouble on this site is exactly what the OP wanted

[Teresa]

5 hours ago, sandyk said:

This thread is clearly Click bait started by an A.S.R member , given that the OP initially asked this  Audiophile Fuses question here:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/silent-angel-bonn-n8-audio-grade-ethernet-switch.12360/page-5

So why as an A.S.R. member, didn't you or other A.S.R members provide Objective  replies in the ASR forum where measurements are all that matters, and that you love to keep quoting from, instead of demanding Objective proof   here ?  

 

Are you aware this is Objective-Fi? This it the perfect place to ask such a question. I find the idea of audiophile fuses rather bizarre. As you know I'm a subjectivist and don't believe anything objective or subjective I have not experienced myself. Instead of polluting the thread why not wait for the proof that will keep the rest of us from LOL?

 

BTW instead of linking the page number you can link the actual post by clicking the post number and coping the web address, like this: Seraph's Post # 83  

 

4 hours ago, sandyk said:

Seraph  asked this same question in #83 of that thread. Yet there are no replies there.

 

Friday at 4:00 PM
#83
soekris said:
Hi Amir: Next of things to test, Those Audiophile Rated Fuses.... Or maybe those exotic Power Cables. All being promoted while ignoring the effects of the cabling from the Wall Outlet all the way back to the Power Station....

Audiophile rated fuses? Surely there is no such thing? Please share a link.

Audiofools Inc.

 

You do realize that Soekris posted most the above, Seraph's reply was "Audiophile rated fuses? Surely there is no such thing? Please share a link." There is nothing wrong with wanting information on something that sounds strange?

 

4 hours ago, sandyk said:

The OP is demanding Objective proof in this thread , when it can't even be provided by the Measurements fanatics in A.S.R without an indepth investigation as suggested by Soekris,  yet you expect this Objective proof to be given here by A.S. members who aren't in the main "Measurements are all that matters"  fanatics like yourself .

 

Once again, are you aware this is Objective-Fi?

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, Teresa said:

 

Are you aware this is Objective-Fi? This it the perfect place to ask such a question. I find the idea of audiophile fuses rather bizarre. As you know I'm a subjectivist and don't believe anything objective or subjective I have not experienced myself. Instead of polluting the thread why not wait for the proof that will keep the rest of us from LOL?

 

BTW instead of linking the page number you can link the actual post by clicking the post number and coping the web address, like this: Seraph's Post # 83  

 

 

You do realize that Soekris posted most the above, Seraph's reply was "Audiophile rated fuses? Surely there is no such thing? Please share a link." There is nothing wrong with wanting information on something that sounds strange?

 

 

Once again, are you aware this is Objective-Fi?

 I am well aware that this is Objective-Fi, yet not a shred of evidence in the way of measurements or DBT has been offered in this thread to disprove that some people are able to hear differences between Audiophile and cheap generic fuses. Furthermore, nobody has ( unless I missed it) even mentioned that an Audiophile fuse is still only as good as the cheap base metal fuseholder that they are normally installed in.  Audiophile rated fuses is a clear reference to the type of fuse, not it's Current rating, and the actual words used  are more likely due to English not being the poster's first language. Neither has it been mentioned that an obvious way to check this area is to measure the resistance of the fuse and it's holder.

BTW, when the fuse is installed in a D.C. part of the circuit, it is quite easy to measure the voltage drop across the holder and the fuse under different load or power output conditions.

 

Neither do I feel that the OP has any credibility when this appears in his Profile.

 

Seraph

Join Date = February 15

 

Audio System

Audiofools Inc.

 

About Me

Audiofools Inc.

 

 

[alfe]

This space was supposed to be protected from your rant Alex, ambient temperatures affect a fuse’s opening and current carrying characteristics so please cool down.

[sandyk]

11 minutes ago, alfe said:

This space was supposed to be protected from your rant Alex, ambient temperatures affect a fuse’s opening and current carrying characteristics so please cool down.

 

Fine .  I will abstain from further posting in this ASR inspired thread, and yes, I am well aware that  ambient temperatures affect a fuse’s opening and current carrying characteristics

[alfe]

5 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

Fine .  I will abstain from further posting in this ASR inspired thread, and yes, I am well aware that  ambient temperatures affect a fuse’s opening and current carrying characteristics

Thank you my friend.

[tapatrick]

14 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

Consider what a typical power supply goes through after the fuse, and you'll realize that there's a whole lot that's being done to this sine-wave that distorts it in ways that are a thousand times worse than anything an asymmetric fuse weld could possibly do. Just look at what the a full-wave rectifier does to our nice looking AC sine wave. This is extremely distorted with tons of harmonics, DC, etc:

 

 

And once we apply some filters to smooth this out, we get this (does this look clean?)

 

And yet, when we are finally finished, we get a clean looking DC  at the output of the power supply -- very close to a straight line. Do you really think that a tiny asymmetry in the fuse will cause enough of a distortion to make it through to the sensitive electronics while all of these other major aberrations are easily removed?

 

 

great - something informative!

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, alfe said:

Thank you my friend.

I suggest you are looking at the wrong person that should not be posting.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

Fine .  I will abstain from further posting

 

I disagree with this

[tapatrick]

7 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

If you follow his link to the nonsense on Audiofools Inc.

you will see his agenda clearly stated. Skip to "Targets" , the top of the hit list being sponsorship based audio forums (like AS)

Thanks. The endless bickering is such a pain as it would be wonderful to have a proper, informative conversation about these kinds of fuses, which I'm curious about. There is an occasional nugget of info in this thread but it's hard to find it in all the noise.

 

However this background info is interesting and puts the whole thread in question.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

20 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

Thanks. The endless bickering is such a pain as it would be wonderful to have a proper, informative conversation about these kinds of fuses, which I'm curious about. There is an occasional nugget of info in this thread but it's hard to find it in all the noise.

 

However this background info is interesting and puts the whole thread in question.

I totally agree.  the topic was chosen by the OP to be divisive. We should all now place this in context and consider what objective evidence is for or against fuses making a difference in SQ. If, as i suspect there is none, let's express respectful opinions based on theory and belief.In other words lets achieve the opposite to the OPs intention.

[danadam]

3 hours ago, sandyk said:

I am well aware that this is Objective-Fi, yet not a shred of evidence in the way of measurements or DBT has been offered in this thread to disprove that some people are able to hear differences between Audiophile and cheap generic fuses.

And rightly so. Proving non-existence is one of logical fallacies and should have no place in objective forum.