daverich4 Posted March 18, 2020 Author Share Posted March 18, 2020 17 hours ago, Rt66indierock said: Chris based on my interactions with daverich4 I doubt he sincerely wants to hear from the technical side especially people like me who believe in both listening and measuring. I start a thread based on my belief that the technical people on this site are getting the short end of things and your analysis of that is that I don’t care about the technical side? Wow. 4est and MikeyFresh 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post John Dyson Posted March 18, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 18, 2020 22 minutes ago, daverich4 said: I start a thread based on my belief that the technical people on this site are getting the short end of things and your analysis of that is that I don’t care about the technical side? Wow. For audio to make progress, we need ALL of listening, measuring (as a user), techncial measuring, hard core development and hard core research... Through this list, these items become more and more 'technical'. (There are probably subjects that I have skipped -- not needed for my point.) WE NEED ALL OF THESE. Some of us are more focused on the later parts along with listening. Some avoid the more technical parts because IN SOME PEOPLE, hard-core thinking can indeed interfere with some kinds of emotional enjoyment. There is room for tolerance by those of us whose involvement resides in any of these categories, even though many people whose thinking reside solely in the 'hard core' areas would often have little interest in these forums. Some of us reside in all of the various categories from time to time, and it is truly difficult to separate them -- to me, because of where my mind is, all of the realms that I listed are merged together -- I cannot split them up, never could do that in any field. People like me actually have difficulties when trying to split the aspects of audio enjoyment into different mindsets, and NEVER intend to insult people when I think and talk in a different way than they are used to dealing with on a day-to-day basis. I guess though, that people can use their own focus and abilities as a weapon (see how smart I am), and that just goes no-where... Those of us who do like to play with technical things should try to provide service/support for those who simply do not enjoy the techie part of the hobby. I REALLY DO know that the purpose of the audio hobby is not my techie stuff, but it is the other way around. It would be nice if people weren't put-off by the various personalities who are contributing to the discussions -- there is a real purpose to each of us. I sometimes DO have to stretch myself a little bit when chatting with even other technical people, it is because even technical people have differing emphasis and different interests. I am trying to say that there should be room for everyone, in almost ANY discussion. Okay, I understand that a deep discussion whether or not someone likes early vs. late Beatles or stereo vs. mono wouldn't be helped by a reference to my latest ABBA decodes -- I get it. But, there are interesting technical matters WRT the stereo vs mono versions of the Beatles, for example. It all goes together!!! John Currawong and Superdad 2 Link to comment
Popular Post sb6 Posted March 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 22, 2020 I'm more of an observer on this forum and very much appreciate all the information including the technical info (I was a EE/BME Tech and MIS admin some years back, still into computers as I work for a lead OEM) and all the opinions (long time audiophile with 30+ years in the hobby on and off + an amateur musician). Overall I appreciate the ability to click a link and have copious computer gear reviews and discussions readily available since I / we can't demo every piece of gear and I thank Chris and all contributors for that. However, every site has its own culture of dialogue, this site embraces a culture of threads akin to, "A novel way to massively improve your ..." based on individual's tweaking with little to no engineering data. The engineering part of me finds the pervasive personal inconsistencies as garbage data yet the audiophile in me says, hey, if x# of people agree that this cable or this PSU sounds warm/thin/<add descriptor here> there must be some truth in hearing, a human commonality we all have (in our youth humans hear ~20 - 20KHz). And yes, I know about psycho acoustics, system synergy, individual preferences and plain old human emotional subjectivity. However, as already discussed above, it's difficult to have it both ways. We're not talking about reviewing pancakes, we're talking about two extremes - our attempt to achieve the best recreation of an art form - music which is only possible via high quality engineering, science. What to do? I've learned to mostly keep quiet as to not be perceived as a troll, a non - contributor or worse be banned. I learned that lesson at Amir's site when I questioned his plethora of data coupled with his healthy dose of sarcasm along with tons of members' insults hurled at anyone questioning anything data - based. Ultimately and surprising to me, I was banned. I would encourage those that post extreme positions like the "massive" improvements from switches, cables etc., for example to do so with a disclaimer of sorts since one person's massive improvement is another's nothing burger. On the other side of the coin, while measurements and specs are important I don't believe they relay everything humans can hear, not yet at least, so be open to new information and not closed - minded in your audiophile journey to sonic perfection. FWIW - in all my years of tweaking I'd say about 70% of the time my purchases yielded sonic improvements close to or exactly as reviewed / discussed. With that success rate, I'll be glad to continue to listen and contribute every now and again. Happy Listening! tapatrick, PeterSt, fas42 and 11 others 10 4 4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, HQPlayer, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz | TotalDAC D1 Twelve DAC + Mk II Streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona with Kuzma 4 Point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits | 4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Eris II rack w/ Herbie's titanium footers | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room Link to comment
Popular Post Albrecht Posted March 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 23, 2020 On 3/13/2020 at 7:00 AM, daverich4 said: To me, the comments section of Austinpop's review of the EtherRegen comes across as a "Front of the Web Site" version of his "Massively Improve" thread. That is, a one sided viewpoint on a topic with no disagreement allowed. That's fine, Chris wants people to be able to be able to discuss a topic without disagreement. But I noticed that when I took a look at the Objective-Fi discussion of the review we have @Sandyk, @Superdad, @Vortecjr and others rooting around in their discussion. Does the wall between the Subjective and Objective audiophiles only go one way? To be clear, I'm not commenting on the content of the review and the massive (see what I did there?) amount of time it took to put it together, just the way the firewall seems to be working. Or for me, not working. I don't have the electronics background to be able to always follow along with the technical parts of a discussion. I appreciate it when forum members who are knowledgeable in those areas can point/counterpoint on a given topic. I found the discussion on Objective-Fi with the back and forth interesting and informative and the comments on the article itself, once you accept that "everything matters", boring. I hope that doesn't continue forever. My two cents. Since this "field of study" is 95% correctly applying subjective analysis & experiential knowledge: it makes sense to relegate the largely irrelevant objective conversations to a tiny section of the site. 2nd, the goal is to curb the zealotry and preaching by objectivists who do not test themselves, yet shout subjective conclusions based on poor objective evidence. Audiophile Neuroscience, daverich4, Iving and 1 other 2 1 1 Link to comment
kumakuma Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 7 minutes ago, Albrecht said: Since this "field of study" is 95% correctly applying subjective analysis & experiential knowledge: it makes sense to relegate the largely irrelevant objective conversations to a tiny section of the site. Where does the 95% figure come from? Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
Popular Post alfe Posted March 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 23, 2020 14 minutes ago, kumakuma said: Where does the 95% figure come from? Actually 100% is the right figure. Albrecht, Iving and kumakuma 1 2 Link to comment
sb6 Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 What I try to do to when providing a software and / or hardware assessment is to include as much relevant detail as possible so a baseline can be established making the assessment more meaningful. I also try to A/B with the help of a kid or the wife when at all possible. Posting, "I tried gadget X and it sounds great!" is useless in and of itself. Devil's in the details as they say... 4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, HQPlayer, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz | TotalDAC D1 Twelve DAC + Mk II Streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona with Kuzma 4 Point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits | 4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Eris II rack w/ Herbie's titanium footers | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room Link to comment
sandyk Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 4 hours ago, alfe said: Actually 100% is the right figure. Sometimes it's hard to tell whether you are serious or not , as you have a wicked sense of humour . Incidentally, you have an unread PM. How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 9 hours ago, kumakuma said: Where does the 95% figure come from? a cautious tendency to underestimate !😉 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
kumakuma Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: a cautious tendency to underestimate !😉 94% or 96% would have been more believable. Audiophile Neuroscience 1 Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
Popular Post jabbr Posted March 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2020 10 hours ago, Albrecht said: 2nd, the goal is to curb the zealotry and preaching by objectivists who do not test themselves, yet shout subjective conclusions based on poor objective evidence. The “massive” thread is a Fed level stimulus for the audiophile economy Iving, pkane2001 and sandyk 2 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted March 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2020 5 hours ago, jabbr said: The “massive” thread is a Fed level stimulus for the audiophile economy Perhaps you guys just don’t get it. It’s about the journey and having fun along the way toward audio bliss. Your angst would better serve the world if it was directed at people selling fake Coronavirus cures. However, it seems you guys are more concerned with, and believe there is an equivalent offense in, the massive thread. Currawong, Iving, Audiophile Neuroscience and 1 other 2 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
alfe Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 14 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Perhaps you guys just don’t get it. It’s about the journey and having fun along the way toward audio bliss. Your angst would better serve the world if it was directed at people selling fake Coronavirus cures. However, it seems you guys are more concerned with, and believe there is an equivalent offense in, the massive thread. We are also against the fake Corona virus cures.😜 jabbr 1 Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted March 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2020 9 minutes ago, alfe said: We are also against the fake Corona virus cures.😜 Have you put any energy into calling them out or participating in a forum where you could save people from this? Or, are you more focused on saving audiophiles from themselves / spending their own money having fun? Teresa, Audiophile Neuroscience, 4est and 1 other 3 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post alfe Posted March 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2020 4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Have you put any energy into calling them out or participating in a forum where you could save people from this? Or, are you more focused on saving audiophiles from themselves / spending their own money having fun? I'm not trying to save anyone, I have too much respect for freedom including freedom of speech. Teresa and jabbr 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted March 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2020 17 minutes ago, alfe said: I'm not trying to save anyone, I have too much respect for freedom including freedom of speech. Stop wasting people’s time with snark and ridiculous posts. Currawong and Iving 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post jabbr Posted March 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2020 2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Perhaps you guys just don’t get it. It’s about the journey and having fun along the way toward audio bliss. Your angst would better serve the world if it was directed at people selling fake Coronavirus cures. However, it seems you guys are more concerned with, and believe there is an equivalent offense in, the massive thread. Sheesh you are waay too serious. No offense to me in the thread. I find it rather curious. I enjoy seeing different ways of thinking, problem solving, and different ways people analyze information. If the site were ideally a bar and we were all sitting down for a drink, then I would enjoy having engineers, artists, scientists, composers, writers and others all free to give their own opinion. The weight of the opinion could be valued by what ideas are expressed, rather than the title of the person expressing it. Teresa, pkane2001 and Albrecht 3 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
alfe Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Stop wasting people’s time with snark and ridiculous posts. daverich4 and jabbr 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted March 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, alfe said: Stop wasting people’s time with snark and ridiculous posts. daverich4 and Teresa 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
JoeWhip Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 Amen brother. Some just can’t help themselves. Just look at the ridiculous postings in news comments threads around the web. Link to comment
Popular Post Albrecht Posted March 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2020 13 hours ago, jabbr said: Xa S2X321 The “massive” thread is a Fed level stimulus for the audiophile economy Thanks for your comment jabbr. I almost always appreciate your posts, and reasoning ability: not to mention your experimentation, and also sharing it on these forums. Setting aside the humor/sarcasm here; I can seriously ask, what is wrong with that? Personally, - no way can i afford a Meitner, DCS, APL, CHord or Berkeley top tier DAC. But I DO have a mid level- in the line APL DAC universal player that i feel punches WAY above its purchase price. I sure am glad that those companies are still in business producing quality, high performance, equipment that I'll never be able to afford but i can still hear and appreciate them/it for what they are. Whether or not some people here are afraid to examine the evidence, and even do a modicum of research into why shit costs what it costs, - (and in turn has value), - is their problem not mine. The audio world (and people enjoying their recordings as much as they do) would be pretty bloody bleak if every piece of audio gear had the word SONY stamped on it. Teresa, Superdad and Audiophile Neuroscience 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Albrecht Posted March 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2020 On 3/14/2020 at 5:20 AM, daverich4 said: I never suggested that what you posted was wrong, just pointed out that you were allowed to post a counter argument in an objective thread. And yes, @SuperDad and @Vortecjr did contribute to a BALANCED discussion in an Objective thread, something that is not allowed in a Subjective thread such as the comments section of Austinpops article. Do you think that it could be worth exploring whether or not the comments are objective or subjective? Sometimes there are comments made that cite a certain measurement, - (jitter level), - being similar to another (more expensive) device and therefore the SUBJECTIVE CONCLUSION is that component B CANNOT sound better and is snake oil. So a comment like that could be considered both objective and subjective. (Keeping the whole question about what is good science or bad science out of this). Audiophile Neuroscience and Teresa 2 Link to comment
jabbr Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, Albrecht said: Setting aside the humor/sarcasm here; I can seriously ask, what is wrong with that? Nothing at all wrong with hacking and experimentation!!! I totally agree on looking for low cost/cost effective/DIY Personally its hard for me to follow the thread and so I'd rather break up into multiple topics. My own efforts including building my own high performance servers, NAS which are focussed on performance, rather than "noise", and then isolating all the noise from the audio system using a really high quality network -- even though I've set up a new Mellanox SN2700 switch, (off eBay) and some Source Photonics 100GBase-LR4 single mode modules (also off eBay !!) and runs Linux (Azure Sonic runs debian). Ha ha in any case the upgrade DOESN'T cause massive improvement (or any) in SQ but I'm happy to explore "extreme" solutions So on the left side of my network, perhaps the overclocking forums, or linux etc are most appropriate, and on the right side, is audio (the Proj-ect S2D is much happier with a great PSU etc). Am I an objectivist? Hmmm ... maybe I use specs and physics theory/practice to decide what to investigate? Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Popular Post Albrecht Posted March 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2020 18 minutes ago, jabbr said: Nothing at all wrong with hacking and experimentation!!! I totally agree on looking for low cost/cost effective/DIY Personally its hard for me to follow the thread and so I'd rather break up into multiple topics. My own efforts including building my own high performance servers, NAS which are focussed on performance, rather than "noise", and then isolating all the noise from the audio system using a really high quality network -- even though I've set up a new Mellanox SN2700 switch, (off eBay) and some Source Photonics 100GBase-LR4 single mode modules (also off eBay !!) and runs Linux (Azure Sonic runs debian). Ha ha in any case the upgrade DOESN'T cause massive improvement (or any) in SQ but I'm happy to explore "extreme" solutions So on the left side of my network, perhaps the overclocking forums, or linux etc are most appropriate, and on the right side, is audio (the Proj-ect S2D is much happier with a great PSU etc). Am I an objectivist? Hmmm ... maybe I use specs and physics theory/practice to decide what to investigate? Hiya.... Thanks again for another great post/explanation. In a past life I designed, set up, and installed network rendering systems for LucasArts/Lucasfilm to recruit 100s of PCs to render "skins" for 3D vertices in 3Dstudio Max, Lightwave, and 3 day character animations in Softimage. One of the things that I found in those early days was to have both a high performance network, - (lame compared to today), - plus as fast processors as possible, - plus high quality individual components in those PCs, and Silicon Graphics boxes. Always better to buy high quality power supplies and chip fans in machines that were running 24-7. A $3 processor fan meant a locked up machine and possibly a missed deadline. What I'm saying is that in many high performance machines: sometimes they get the added benefit of less noise? In the chip fan/power supply example: the machines were quieter with more expensive fans. Of course, - economies of scale with luxury goods high-performance audio, (on the analog side), - is way different than the costs of the parts for networking/computing: Yet, high SOME high performance (especially computers), are crazy expensive as well. Plus, - how many $30,000 DACs is Ed Meitner going to sell in a year? And Ed Meitner's dealer accommodation is at least 40% and if he sells one to a reviewer it will likely be 50% to 60% discount. Plus, - each internal component cannot be discounted by buying in bulk. And even though he may sell 1 or 2 a year, - he's got to make at least 4 or 5 prototypes, again buying a pile of parts to experiment with... So someone like EMM Labs has to make money on their cheaper, - lesser performing products that have trickled down from the attention getter, - that they've made (likely) nothing on. It is likely that you know all of this, and I apologize if I'm being obvious, and/or repeating something that you already know.... I am just saying that getting to high performance computer and networking design has it's significant differences in pricing, at the end of the day, - in the computing industry, - the ubiquitousness, plus use in other areas is still cheaper and garners savings by mass production. A Cisco 6509, 2960, a TP-Link 5 port gigabit, Melco, & etherRegen are all switches. But for their applications, some are BETTER than others. I hear you though and trust your wise approach as (especially on the networking side) your fiber implementations (although may be designed for performance) also reduce noise significantly. To me it doesn't matter that you may be both objectivist or subjectivist in your approach, - I call what you are doing GOOD SCIENCE. daverich4, Audiophile Neuroscience and Superdad 1 1 1 Link to comment
jabbr Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 10 minutes ago, Albrecht said: Hiya.... Thanks again for another great post/explanation. In a past life I designed, set up, and installed network rendering systems for LucasArts/Lucasfilm to recruit 100s of PCs to render "skins" for 3D vertices in 3Dstudio Max, Lightwave, and 3 day character animations in Softimage. One of the things that I found in those early days was to have both a high performance network, - (lame compared to today), - plus as fast processors as possible, - plus high quality individual components in those PCs, and Silicon Graphics boxes. Always better to buy high quality power supplies and chip fans in machines that were running 24-7. A $3 processor fan meant a locked up machine and possibly a missed deadline. Nice! 10 minutes ago, Albrecht said: What I'm saying is that in many high performance machines: sometimes they get the added benefit of less noise? In the chip fan/power supply example: the machines were quieter with more expensive fans. Sure. 10 minutes ago, Albrecht said: It is likely that you know all of this, and I apologize if I'm being obvious, and/or repeating something that you already know.... I am just saying that getting to high performance computer and networking design has it's significant differences in pricing, at the end of the day, - in the computing industry, - the ubiquitousness, plus use in other areas is still cheaper and garners savings by mass production. Absolutely, and I am look at picking up technology that is a generation or two old. For example my $1200 (ebay) switch is $30k new. Mine is (c) 2015-6 and considered ancient. Now that 200Gbe is standard, the 100Gbe stuff is much cheaper. For example I'm getting NICs 130-160 (ConnectX-4-5) and QSFP28 LR4 modules at $100. Obviously surplus. You appreciate what these systems are used for nowadays, exactly what you were doing Consider this: RAM <-> CPU is about 240 Gbs, so RDMA across 100 Gbe is just slower RAM. Not a bad way to access a database At these prices why not? 10 minutes ago, Albrecht said: A Cisco 6509, 2960, a TP-Link 5 port gigabit, Melco, & etherRegen are all switches. But for their applications, some are BETTER than others. Yes and I think, and have said, that EtherREGEN is obviously aimed at home market. My main objection isn't in the devices or functionality -- certainly common mode noise can travel down copper ethernet and be modulated by various shields ... rather the concept and assertion that jitter is additive across a network. The jitter budget for 100Gbe is 60 fs!!! If there is additive jitter the links just fail, that is how tight the jitter budgets are. Moreover these systems use SMPS 10 minutes ago, Albrecht said: I hear you though and trust your wise approach as (especially on the networking side) your fiber implementations (although may be designed for performance) also reduce noise significantly. To me it doesn't matter that you may be both objectivist or subjectivist in your approach, - I call what you are doing GOOD SCIENCE. Thanks. I adopted fiber for noise reduction, not performance, and upgraded to 10G not for performance, rather for lower and measured jitter, so both voltage, current and phase noise is the goal. Again and again and again, I am all for reducing common mode noise transmission into the audio system, I think if we all understand what shields and conductors are doing, then we can make or purchase lower priced and more effective (better SQ) cables (and components). Bottom line the "moat" makes me a "schizophrenic" 🤪 daverich4 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
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