UpTone Audio EtherREGEN (Objective Discussion Only)

[Teresa]

On 3/31/2020 at 9:11 PM, lucretius said:

Sometimes it's nice to hear that skepticism if just to gauge how many reasonable people hold that position. More often than not, I see a lot of folks claiming such and such makes huge improvements and the deniers and skeptics are absent. In such a case, I'm led to believe that there's something wrong with me for not being able to discern some of the differences claimed.

 

I would express my opinion on products that sound illogical or silly to me if there was a non offensive way to do it. And to include the caveat that I have not and will not be trying said product myself. Currently I know of no way to do this.

 

I feel sorry if a person has a need for outside conformation of their doubts, I have no problem being alone in anything I doubt.

 

On 4/1/2020 at 6:28 AM, pkane2001 said:

It's a risk. Just like you wouldn't put a hand in the fire because you know you'll likely get burned, you wouldn't want to try a test that likely will cast doubt on a tightly held, precious belief system.

 

That sounds like a logical conclusion. However, perhaps there are also people like me who don’t enjoy comparing anything. I don’t even like comparing performances of the same classical piece, and many people enjoy this a lot. Either I am weird or others also don’t care to do comparisons, I don’t know. 

 

On 4/1/2020 at 7:15 AM, pkane2001 said:

Blind tests are more fun than cooking dinner... subjectively speaking  

 

As I stated above I don't enjoy comparing anything. When I make a purchase I first see which items are in my price range, then which ones I like the looks of, which ones offer features I want, and then which ones offer the best specifications. Finally I narrow it down to one item, I take it home and listen to my favorite music through it. If I like it I keep it, if I don't I take it back for a refund.

 

5 hours ago, plissken said:

Don't worry, ASR's review still has 2nd placement in Google search.

 

The product under discussion is not one I would ever try. I started following this thread to read about any measured performance differences and the ASR review is the only objective one I have read so far. 

 

1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

Perhaps because objectivists don't consider trolls like @Seraph to be "fellow objectivists"...

 

Personally, I don't think he is a troll as I have agreed with many of his posts.

[jabbr]

14 minutes ago, Teresa said:

As I stated above I don't enjoy comparing anything. When I make a purchase I first see which items are in my price range, then which ones I like the looks of, which ones offer features I want, and then which ones offer the best specifications. Finally I narrow it down to one item, I take it home and listen to my favorite music through it. If I like it I keep it, if I don't I take it back for a refund.

This is refreshingly honest. I agree.

 

I also dislike making rapidly alternating comparisons. I either like what I hear or don’t. If I have two alternatives I might find that over time I’m drawn to one or the other. 

[charlesphoto]

I think many of us would have a lot less (or no) problem with this thread if it had been titled something like "Switches for audio (Objective Discussion only)" but some seem to have an agenda against Uptone despite them being one of the more transparent companies with their designs. Yes, perhaps they should have followed Sonore's lead and made absolutely no claim on any sound quality benefits with their products, but very few do that (and not many offer money back if not satisfied). Where are the Aqvox measurements, or the Melco, or the TP-Link, Netgear or Cisco? What would be the baseline as it is? Or is it enough to be an 'objectivist' by just saying switches make no difference without offering up proof that they can't? It's the disingenuousness of the ASR campaign that then gets carried over here by sycophants like Seraph that is problematic. In my opinion. 

[kelvinwsy]

I follow this thread and just cannot help but jump in and give my 2 cents worth. I am of course a very satisfied customer of Uptone Audio. AND I buy Chinese HIFI equipment too. CHIFI??

Alex and John may be the most transparent of out there in the Audiophile Equipment world, if not at least in the top 3.

Who on earth tells you their margins of their finished product during the design phase. 

Put aside all the arguments about ground phase noise, jitter etc. Do you dissenter and critics know how little is the IsoRegen and Etheregen selling for. Even Hifi wannabees from China are now in the 300-500 USD range and many of these not top rank ChinFI brands are in the 1200-2000 USD range.

For what Alex and John offers in their technical approach to design of their products (I wish to may a distinction of technical from Sciientific ie. Scientific is totally objective with full Lab reports and reams of technical measurements) Technical is more component based and all lot of reference to peer opinions of what sounds good from past proven designs/layouts etc. coupled with good incremental refinements/improvements in PCB design, component choice etc etc.) Sort of like Mr Pass and his DIY designs. Measurable but really finally it must sound GOOD!

The overwelming majority of users of the ISOREGEN, LPS1/1.2, JS-1, ER etc are more than satisfied customers. So if their ears tell them the Uptone stuff gives them a quantum or incremental step in SQ then it must be generally proof of as in eating of the "PUDDING".

As always you go up the $ step ladder, you should get better SQ for your money. No one at least i remember from Alex to John ever said their stuff is the ENDGAME. 

So let the objectivists rant on. I am too busy enjoying my ISOREGEN/LPS1/ER to bother with their demands for proof. My ears and the longer and longer listening sessions is all the measurements I will ever need. HA!!! 

[manueljenkin]

13 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

Do you understand what you posted regarding what the limitations of Fourier transform might or might not be with regard to transients?

 

I wouldn't look to stackexchange as authoritative but Fourier transforms including limitations are very well known and described.

 

I only said, transients are better analysed looking at envelopes, and if it is a LTI system, through Laplace transforms and such. fft is a visualization, and not the best one for analysing transients is what I meant. Different types of windowing functions, and window lengths show different visualizations, and give scope to tweak the best visualization for your signal to be checked. I'm unsure what you find odd in my statement. Regarding stackexchange, again i'm not sure your grudge there, but the link i posted was relevant. Also of importance is phase information, which will need complex fft (both phase and amplitude plots). You can get back original samples if you have both phase and amplitude information, not from plots of amplitude alone, discarding phase.

 

I was meaning spectral leakage, smearing etc, when analysing transient signal using fft/dft.

https://dspillustrations.com/pages/posts/misc/spectral-leakage-zero-padding-and-frequency-resolution.html

[alfe]

14 hours ago, jabbr said:

This paper describes ways to measure Ethernet receivers in the presence of injected jitter, so called stressed eye pattern testing, again to ensure that input jitter is not retransmitted:

https://www.tek.com/document/application-note/physical-layer-tests-100-gb-s-communications-systems

65W_28494_1_LR_Letter (2).pdf 2.01 MB · 4 downloads

Now you are trying the Frankenstein design  (let's create first and see what happen later)😁

[pkane2001]

10 hours ago, Teresa said:

That sounds like a logical conclusion. However, perhaps there are also people like me who don’t enjoy comparing anything. I don’t even like comparing performances of the same classical piece, and many people enjoy this a lot. Either I am weird or others also don’t care to do comparisons, I don’t know. 

 

I agree, Teresa. Comparing is not as much fun as just enjoying the music. And yet, most audiophiles do comparisons all the time, but avoid blind testing like a plague. 

 

Blind testing doesn't dictate quick switching, ABX, triangular, pair-wise, hidden-reference, or any other specific type of testing. All blind testing requires is that the listener not know the identity of the device being tested. One can listen for 5 seconds, listen for 5 hours or 5 weeks. Doesn't really matter, as long as the identity of the device is hidden from the listener. If you believe you can tell the (often huge) difference using your ears, then blind testing should be a cinch -- just do exactly the same type of comparison you'd normally do, but without the knowledge of which device is in the circuit. If you can still tell the devices apart, then you have a much better, objectively speaking, evidence that you heard a real difference.

[sandyk]

11 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

And yet, most audiophiles do comparisons all the time, but avoid blind testing like a plague. 

 

So apparently do many Objective people,  although they keep demanding them of Audiophiles ,  yet when the results don't go the way they expected them to, refuse to accept the results , or claim that the series of Blind test sessions   (not just a single session) weren't performed correctly ! 

[Seraph]

56 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

So apparently do many Objective people,  although they keep demanding them of Audiophiles ,  yet when the results don't go the way they expected them to, refuse to accept the results , or claim that the series of Blind test sessions   (not just a single session) weren't performed correctly ! 

What are you talking about? When was this blind test done and who participated?

[pkane2001]

16 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I must say, the amount of posts being reported as being against the objective-fi rules is astounding. However, the objectivists aren't reporting their own fellow objectivists. 

 

Ha! All three of the remaining four objectivists here are reporting subjective posts in Objectify? The horror! I've yet to report a single post by anyone since I joined CA, so I know it's not me 🤨

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, alfe said:

Now you are trying the Frankenstein design  (let's create first and see what happen later)😁

That’s the software approach to hardware: keep typing until the compile errors go away, and then until the segfaults get less  😂

[Teresa]

49 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

I agree, Teresa. Comparing is not as much fun as just enjoying the music. And yet, most audiophiles do comparisons all the time, but avoid blind testing like a plague. 

 

Blind testing doesn't dictate quick switching, ABX, triangular, pair-wise, hidden-reference, or any other specific type of testing. All blind testing requires is that the listener not know the identity of the device being tested. One can listen for 5 seconds, listen for 5 hours or 5 weeks. Doesn't really matter, as long as the identity of the device is hidden from the listener. If you believe you can tell the (often huge) difference using your ears, then blind testing should be a cinch -- just do exactly the same type of comparison you'd normally do, but without the knowledge of which device is in the circuit. If you can still tell the devices apart, then you have a much better, objectively speaking, evidence that you heard a real difference.

 

I don't like sighted testing either.

 

When I'm finished listening to an album I put it away if it's a physical disc, if it's a music file I close the playlist and I don't come back to that album until I want to listen to it again. Just listening for pleasure means I don't have to mentally retain any sonic information, just if I like the album or not, to know if I want to keep it in my collection. 

 

I dread any of my audio components or speakers breaking down and being too expensive to repair as that means I have to listen and make a decision of what to purchase. My speakers are over 30 years old and I had to replace the surrounds of the woofers many years ago. I was so glad I didn't have to decide on what speakers to replace them. I spent an entire year listening to speakers at the five audio stores we had back then before finally getting my Infinity Reference 7 Kappas. Now we only have one audio store. If my speakers ever bite the dust I'll have go to audio shows to find a replacement I like as much. I'll be thrilled if the equipment I own lasts until I die, then I will never have to make dreaded comparisons again. This is also a reason I don't try add ons or tweaks as I would have to compare them.

 

You may ask why I'm interested in this thread. I was curious what objective measurements, etc. would be posted for the UpTone Audio EtherREGEN.

 

If it is true as you say that most audiophiles do comparisons all the time then I'm either weird of an outer.

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, Teresa said:

 

I don't like sighted testing either.

 

When I'm finished listening to an album I put it away if it's a physical disc, if it's a music file I close the playlist and I don't come back to that album until I want to listen to it again. Just listening for pleasure means I don't have to mentally retain any sonic information, just if I like the album or not, to know if I want to keep it in my collection. 

 

I dread any of my audio components or speakers breaking down and being too expensive to repair as that means I have to listen and make a decision of what to purchase. My speakers are over 30 years old and I had to replace the surrounds of the woofers many years ago. I was so glad I didn't have to decide on what speakers to replace them. I spent an entire year listening to speakers at the five audio stores we had back then before finally getting my Infinity Reference 7 Kappas. Now we only have one audio store. If my speakers ever bite the dust I'll have go to audio shows to find a replacement I like as much. I'll be thrilled if the equipment I own lasts until I die, then I will never have to make dreaded comparisons again. This is also a reason I don't try add ons or tweaks as I would have to compare them.

 

You may ask why I'm interested in this thread. I was curious what objective measurements, etc. would be posted for the UpTone Audio EtherREGEN.

 

If it is true as you say that most audiophiles do comparisons all the time then I'm either weird of an outer.

 

I'm like you, Teresa. I've built my perfect system about 20 years ago, and have been enjoying it ever since. I've replaced a few components in the recent years mostly to integrate computer-based audio, but all of the major components have remained the same. I do blind comparisons when I want to know if something really does make a difference or if I want to study a subject in more detail, but that's much more of an engineering/science-related pursuit than anything I do for my own enjoyment (but I do enjoy science and engineering, as well).

[Teresa]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

So apparently do many Objective people,  although they keep demanding them of Audiophiles ,  yet when the results don't go the way they expected them to, refuse to accept the results , or claim that the series of Blind test sessions   (not just a single session) weren't performed correctly ! 

 

No one has do things that someone else demands of them if they don't want to. By the same token no one has to accept test results if they don't want to.

 

Personally I don't believe anything (objective or subjective) that I have not heard with my ear/brain system. I think you are taking this too seriously. IMHO enjoying music is what it is about.

[jabbr]

11 minutes ago, Teresa said:

When I'm finished listening to an album I put it away if it's a physical disc, if it's a music file I close the playlist and I don't come back to that album until I want to listen to it again. Just listening for pleasure means I don't have to mentally retain any sonic information, just if I like the album or not, to know if I want to keep it in my collection. 
 

 

There seems to be two different camps (with some overlap): 

1) Those, like yourself, who listen primarily for the love of music 

2) Those who primarily love the gear

 

Quote

If it is true as you say that most audiophiles do comparisons all the time then I'm either weird of an outer.

 

You may be weird! 
 

I think there are also audiophiles who just want to get a great system and then not worry about it, so if expensive cables and tweaks are part of the package then they are part of the package. 
 

When I do comparisons it’s to test out something specific I’m interested in, for example if one circuit design sounds different than another but in terms of listening you are spot on  

[manueljenkin]

I think I am big outlier from all you people. While I appreciate and enjoy higher fidelity, audio, I am not as much bothered about it. I prefer listening to my Bluetooth or phone speaker or a mono speaker, and dance to it. The reason I stick around, explore and spot changes is only on a scientific pursuit to learn things. No matter how great the music is, for me, it doesn't compare to the pleasure I get when I play the flute in my amateurish ways, or sing, or blast an edm in my Bluetooth speaker and dance to it. Hi-fi is typically too restrictive - wall hugging, imaging sweet spot, unstable headphones, room restrictions, etc.

 

My approach here is Tweak, experiment, learn. Characterize the aberration in notes, and develop tones and try to spot it audibly, when the gear is ready to measure. Did a few of them successfully already. Few others friends helped me, like the difference between winyl and foobar. I don't think that particular measurement is audible, but it proves that they both don't do the same thing and there may be more aberrations hidden not yet measured.

 

Tldr: less bothered about hifi audio for my consumption. I'm using it as a gateway to explore power supply design, signal processing/machine learning, electrical-mechanical interactions and transistor modelling.

[pkane2001]

I know this is a thread about EtherRegen, but for comparison, there are some new measurements on ASR for yet another audiophile ethernet switch. This one is a bit cheaper than ER. Surprisingly(?) it also does nothing to the measured output. At least according to measurements of noise, distortions, and jitter.

 

[alfe]

36 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Ha! All three of the remaining four objectivists here are reporting subjective posts in Objectify? The horror! I've yet to report a single post by anyone since I joined CA, so I know it's not me 🤨

Not me , not Jon, the only objectivist I can think about is SandyK😂 

[charlesphoto]

39 minutes ago, Teresa said:

Personally I don't believe anything (objective or subjective) that I have not heard with my ear/brain system. I think you are taking this too seriously. IMHO enjoying music is what it is about.

 

Yep, and this is the way it should be. Last year I was auditioning speakers, and there was a pair I was very keen on (for budget reasons limiting myself to the used section at my local dealer). All was going well while auditioning some jazz favorites, etc. and then I put on a favorite Cat Power track. For some reason, it sounded like an entirely different mix than I'd heard on any other speaker or system. Tried it several times and it just did not work. But only that album. Crazy. Totally ruled them out right there and then. I have no clue how they measure compared to what I ultimately ended up with and it wouldn't have mattered compared to just listening. 

[Seraph]

15 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

I have no clue how they measure compared to what I ultimately ended up with and it wouldn't have mattered compared to just listening. 

You could try and see if the measurements are found here.

[charlesphoto]

This reporting of members reminds me of a small lecture I had with a pair of my kids friend recently (right before total lockdown).

 

Olive (3rd grade) is constantly telling on her brother Leo (5th grade). In the car she said she was going to tell on Leo to her parents later for using the F word or something like that. You know Olive, I told her, your parents are stressed out right now and don't need this constant tattle telling. It might feel like a game to you, but if you keep this up they're going to end up more mad at you than your brother, and then they won't listen to you about truly big problems if they come along. You two need to work it out between yourself and give your parents a break. 

 

Of course, in no way am I implying ANYONE on this forum ever acts like an eight year old girl....😄

[charlesphoto]

3 minutes ago, Seraph said:

You could try and see if the measurements are found here.

 

Nope, neither. And it wouldn't have mattered one jot compared to what I heard, with eyes wide open. 

[Seraph]

1 minute ago, charlesphoto said:

 

Nope, neither. And it wouldn't have mattered one jot compared to what I heard, with eyes wide open. 

OK, just trying to help you out! You were talking about measurements after all.

[tapatrick]

4 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

Of course, in no way am I implying ANYONE on this forum ever acts like an eight year old girl....😄

... in the pursuit of listening to the music...

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too

 

Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You, you may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one

I hope someday you will join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can

No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man

Imagine…"

[Seraph]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

I know this is a thread about EtherRegen, but for comparison, there are some new measurements on ASR for yet another audiophile ethernet switch. This one is a bit cheaper than ER. Surprisingly(?) it also does nothing to the measured output. At least according to measurements of noise, distortions, and jitter.

 

Crickets