UpTone Audio EtherREGEN (Objective Discussion Only)

[Seraph]

23 minutes ago, mikicasellas said:

Have you seen this ?

 

 

Is this a April 1st joke?
This guy totally believes in audiophile USB and power cables. Though some of the stuff they make is actually pretty good.

[manueljenkin]

15 minutes ago, Seraph said:

Is this a April 1st joke?
This guy totally believes in audiophile USB and power cables. Though some of the stuff they make is actually pretty good.

What is your point? That usb cables and power cables "cannot" make a difference? In that case even your "measurement GOD" measured differences in USB cables, even with single tone measurements.

 

I have 3 usb cables all of them meet minimum USB spec and still sound very different. Changing music player software, all in ASIO also can sound wildly different. Difference between foobar and winyl in ASIO/wasapi has been measured, even in the single tone levels.

 

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/50P4hRJ

Mislabeled the title, it is 5khz square wave (though 1khz shows very similar results).

 

I have also been able to tweak the software, and cables to create clear and distinctly high buffer underruns and overruns, causing a complete blank harshness, or stutter, all of which will still be "bit perfect".

 

The sonic differences between music player software is higher than the difference between different tiers of dacs and headphones (much bigger than the difference between something like hd600 and hd650). I can gladly take blind tests on this front once the covid situation is solved. But should be done in my gear, my headphone, my sources and my music.

 

Godspeed, mr abstraction!

[pkane2001]

8 hours ago, manueljenkin said:

I need a bit more detail on the sampling rate etc. To check on the sampling artefacts and filtering artefacts will need an analysis of the ADC in use.

 

But this is more of a static/averaged signal. Transient analysis will be one from an inertial frame of reference. The path from inertia to steady state denotes the transient curves. The type of filter/sampler design to measure transients and steady state phenomenon need not be same. Every design will have a bound within which they perform optimal.

 

This is a tool for quickly assessing DACs and ADCs in a loop-back configuration. Sample rate, etc. are all up to the device and are selectable. The capture I posted was at 96kHz.

 

No, the signal is not static. And not averaged. One FFT-size worth of samples is collected and processed. And, of course, the frequency domain and the time domain are interchangeably representing the same exact data. Here's that multi-tone signal, zoomed-in in the time domain:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[manueljenkin]

8 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

This is a tool for quickly assessing DACs and ADCs in a loop-back configuration. Sample rate, etc. are all up to the device and are selectable. The capture I posted was at 96kHz.

 

No, the signal is not static. And not averaged. One FFT-size worth of samples is collected and processed. And, of course, the frequency domain and the time domain are interchangeably representing the same exact data. Here's that multi-tone signal, zoomed-in in the time domain:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Name of the tool?

[pkane2001]

16 minutes ago, manueljenkin said:

Name of the tool?

 

Currently Multi-tone Loopback Analyzer, but since I'm writing it, I'll probably come up with another name before I publish it

 

[jabbr]

6 hours ago, mikicasellas said:

Have you seen this ?

 

 

Fairly reasonable. I’d add that all the routers on the way from the server to your house are incredibly high quality. The probably run at 100Gbs and if jitter were additive, the whole internet would self destruct because the end to end jitter tolerance is 60 femtoseconds — so basically every single switch “Regens” the Ethernet signal  

[manueljenkin]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Currently Multi-tone Loopback Analyzer, but since I'm writing it, I'll probably come up with another name before I publish it

 

In that case I wouldn't be able to find out if it is static or dynamic till I can try to see what it really does.

 

But I'll say this, Fft by itself is going to window things (you need to specify window length, overlap and stuff and there is always a trade off in that) and is not the correct way to capture or visualize transients. Fft works best only for steady signals (and preferrably LTI, so we are back into the loop). Edges are something you would have serious difficulty interpreting using Fft.

https://dsp.stackexchange.com/questions/62002/is-a-fourier-transform-a-sound-way-to-analyse-a-transient-signal

 

When I say transient response, this is one example : 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/burst-response-hd800-sr-207-hd650.3688/

 

it is not the end all be all, but a good starting point. Look at how the output begins and stabilizes and different headphones taking different time to settle. Again we are looking at all these through the mics transient response and ADC filter/non linearities, so to capture even more precision we'd need even more complex input and complicated analysers/mics. (Someone donate me a Neumann ku100 or b&k please 🤪)

 

And if you're still confused, you're probably not an ee student. I'd recommend you to start reading about ac transient and steady state analysis.

[pkane2001]

41 minutes ago, manueljenkin said:

In that case I wouldn't be able to find out if it is static or dynamic till I can try to see what it really does.

 

But I'll say this, Fft by itself is going to window things (you need to specify window length, overlap and stuff and there is always a trade off in that) and is not the correct way to capture or visualize transients. Fft works best only for steady signals (and preferrably LTI, so we are back into the loop). Edges are something you would have serious difficulty interpreting using Fft.

https://dsp.stackexchange.com/questions/62002/is-a-fourier-transform-a-sound-way-to-analyse-a-transient-signal

 

When I say transient response, this is one example : 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/burst-response-hd800-sr-207-hd650.3688/

 

it is not the end all be all, but a good starting point. Look at how the output begins and stabilizes and different headphones taking different time to settle. Again we are looking at all these through the mics transient response and ADC filter/non linearities, so to capture even more precision we'd need even more complex input and complicated analysers/mics. (Someone donate me a Neumann ku100 or b&k please 🤪)

 

And if you're still confused, you're probably not an ee student. I'd recommend you to start reading about ac transient and steady state analysis.

 

Let's just say I know a little bit about DSP and signal processing, having been working in this space (audio and image processing) since the early 90's. So, no, to answer your question I'm not confused.

 

[jabbr]

3 hours ago, manueljenkin said:

In that case I wouldn't be able to find out if it is static or dynamic till I can try to see what it really does.

 

But I'll say this, Fft by itself is going to window things (you need to specify window length, overlap and stuff and there is always a trade off in that) and is not the correct way to capture or visualize transients. Fft works best only for steady signals (and preferrably LTI, so we are back into the loop). Edges are something you would have serious difficulty interpreting using Fft.

https://dsp.stackexchange.com/questions/62002/is-a-fourier-transform-a-sound-way-to-analyse-a-transient-signal

 

When I say transient response, this is one example : 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/burst-response-hd800-sr-207-hd650.3688/

 

it is not the end all be all, but a good starting point. Look at how the output begins and stabilizes and different headphones taking different time to settle. Again we are looking at all these through the mics transient response and ADC filter/non linearities, so to capture even more precision we'd need even more complex input and complicated analysers/mics. (Someone donate me a Neumann ku100 or b&k please 🤪)

 

And if you're still confused, you're probably not an ee student. I'd recommend you to start reading about ac transient and steady state analysis.

 

Do you understand what you posted regarding what the limitations of Fourier transform might or might not be with regard to transients?

 

I wouldn't look to stackexchange as authoritative but Fourier transforms including limitations are very well known and described.

 

[the_bat]

I know it's a short time sample but has anyone else noticed that this thread is responsible for 98% of the postings in Objective-fi this month?

[Iving]

7 minutes ago, the_bat said:

I know it's a short time sample but has anyone else noticed that this thread is responsible for 98% of the postings in Objective-fi this month?

 

lol - better to be roasted than ignored = no publicity is bad publicity etc

[Superdad]

6 minutes ago, the_bat said:

I know it's a short time sample but has anyone else noticed that this thread is responsible for 98% of the postings in Objective-fi this month?

 

I think it is probably driving sales too!  

 

(Seriously, one would think that the current sad world situation would depress the audiophile market, but we are busier than ever. I guess people are staying home and practicing what my wife calls "retail therapy.")

[christopher3393]

25 minutes ago, the_bat said:

I know it's a short time sample but has anyone else noticed that this thread is responsible for 98% of the postings in Objective-fi this month?

 

Many objectivists are practicing social media distancing in order to flatten the curve of the Objecti-fi virus.

[charlesphoto]

18 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

I think it is probably driving sales too!  

 

(Seriously, one would think that the current sad world situation would depress the audiophile market, but we are busier than ever. I guess people are staying home and practicing what my wife calls "retail therapy.")

 

Well, as tempted as I am, you or anybody else won't be getting any discretionary spending out of me anytime soon. Sadly, an overseas ad agency who has licensed an image in the five figures, contract signed and invoice sent, has suddenly decided to not reply to any of my emails, even though I let them know I don't care if the news is good or bad (perhaps the client isn't paying them). Crazy times we live in.

[charlesphoto]

35 minutes ago, the_bat said:

I know it's a short time sample but has anyone else noticed that this thread is responsible for 98% of the postings in Objective-fi this month?

 

Well, a lot of the 'objectivity' we've seen on this site (and others) mostly begins and ends with 'no, not, or can't' and very little else. 

[Superdad]

17 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

Sadly, an overseas ad agency who has licensed an image in the five figures, contract signed and invoice sent, has suddenly decided to not reply to any of my emails, even though I let them know I don't care if the news is good or bad (perhaps the client isn't paying them).

 

Very sorry to hear that Charles. Bad news abounds, both with loss of life, and with jobs in the millions. Audio sure seems trivial and irrelevant in comparison. 

[charlesphoto]

4 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Very sorry to hear that Charles. Bad news abounds, both with loss of life, and with jobs in the millions. Audio sure seems trivial and irrelevant in comparison. 

 

It is what it is and a small road bump for me compared to the current fate of thousands in the hospital or the millions who have lost their jobs. As a lifelong freelancer, I learned a LONG time ago to never spend money promised until you actually see it in the bank. Take care and stay safe.

[plissken]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

I think it is probably driving sales too!  

 

(Seriously, one would think that the current sad world situation would depress the audiophile market, but we are busier than ever. I guess people are staying home and practicing what my wife calls "retail therapy.")

 

Don't worry, ASR's review still has 2nd placement in Google search.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I must say, the amount of posts being reported as being against the objective-fi rules is astounding. However, the objectivists aren't reporting their own fellow objectivists. 

[jabbr]

 

 

To get back to an objective discussion this article from SI has some useful information, and I misspoke, the 100gbe 60 femtosecond jitter number is what SITime says is the budget for their SIT936x oscillator, not the entire system:

 

https://www.sitime.com/company/news/blog/what-you-need-know-about-phase-noise-and-jitter-high-speed-systems

 

 

and I found this which @JohnSwenson may find helpful as he tests his system: It demonstrates that the SITime "elite" series oscillators are less sensitive to environmental factors including vibration than crystal oscillators:

[jabbr]

This paper describes ways to measure Ethernet receivers in the presence of injected jitter, so called stressed eye pattern testing, again to ensure that input jitter is not retransmitted:

https://www.tek.com/document/application-note/physical-layer-tests-100-gb-s-communications-systems

65W_28494_1_LR_Letter (2).pdf

[plissken]

29 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I must say, the amount of posts being reported as being against the objective-fi rules is astounding. However, the objectivists aren't reporting their own fellow objectivists. 

 

Ah. That's just a function of the Exodus.

[plissken]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

SIT936x oscillator

 

I would think this makes into the eRg2

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, plissken said:

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I must say, the amount of posts being reported as being against the objective-fi rules is astounding. However, the objectivists aren't reporting their own fellow objectivists. 

 

Ah. That's just a function of the Exodus.

 Does that suggest the objective objectivists have exited 😉 ?

Personally, so long as snark and agenda is gone I am happy for some S/O gray zone.

 

IMO objective people (including some in this thread who are objective) would be looking to constructively assist Uptone Audio in their measurements, not be adversarial. IMO the (objective) truth will not flow easily

[kumakuma]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I must say, the amount of posts being reported as being against the objective-fi rules is astounding. However, the objectivists aren't reporting their own fellow objectivists. 

 

Perhaps because objectivists don't consider trolls like @Seraph to be "fellow objectivists"...