pkane2001 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 8 hours ago, cat6man said: and to follow up on superdad's comment above, does the ASR's a/d converter really have a 600ns jitter spec and, if so, does that invalidate the ASR measurements of jitter? No and no. lucretius 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted March 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, RussL said: Please see Post No. 1. Russ How dare you troll your own thread? 😱 Jeff_N, Teresa and lucretius 3 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted March 31, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2020 27 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: You ask that question as if it has meaning. Like the people over there are the arbiters of truth and science. I highly recommend you look at that site a little closer for conflicts of interest, disingenuous “reviews,” and measurements corrected much after the fact / damage has been done. So much for an objective forum. You gents don't understand the meaning of the word. Opinions, unsubstantiated claims and conspiracy theories are not it, sorry. daverich4, Audiophile Neuroscience and Teresa 2 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted March 31, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2020 3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: My comments were based on facts. Conflict of interest - Amir's business selling products that compete with those he writes about disingenuous “reviews,” - Read the original microRendu review and take in all that is subjective word salad describing how much he doesn't like it. Zero to do with objective data and everything to do with not liking the company and what it sells. measurements corrected much after the fact / damage has been done - Again, look at the microRendu review. Guy didn't know how to use the analyzer and berated the product even though it was his error causing the issues. The corrections came much later and in an addendum. The damage was done. When you have real facts, you can post in the objective forum. When you have an agenda and use "science" as a weapon you'll get called out. Having a conflict of interest is not an issue in an objective review, Chris. This is where you keep going off track every time the topic of ASR comes up. Measurements are measurements, and others can repeat them or prove them wrong if they want to. There's no reason to keep attacking someone personally for an objective review -- just publish your own objective evidence to show that the measurements are wrong. Do you really think Amir holds a thumb to the AP analyzer when he does his measurements? plissken and Teresa 2 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 3 hours ago, Iving said: Yes - we don't have Objective-Fi within our sights yet. Fully agreed. -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 3 hours ago, charlesphoto said: Pot calling the kettle black from where I sit. I think you might be sitting on the wrong side of the moat, then -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted March 31, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2020 3 hours ago, manueljenkin said: I don't know about others, but almost every reply made by me has been objective. Showing something is missing in the analysis is also "objective". Coverage metric is an objective term. We don't know precisely how we perceive sonics is a fact. Right now where I stand objectively is, it is neither proven nor disproven that it can make a difference. Subjectively, what I think is none of your business. I understand you think you're being objective in your comments, and I agree, to a much greater degree you are, at least when compared to almost everyone else posting here. But when arguing with measurements and facts, you need to provide similar and sufficient objective evidence. Just claiming that the problem is some unknown factor is not enough. Actual measurements would be nice. Showing a different outcome than what has already been objectively demonstrated by others would be nice. Sharing your test setup and conditions would be nice. Different test signal? What's different and why is it better? etc., etc., etc. plissken, kumakuma and Seraph 3 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Confused said: Out of interest, what does he sell? He does a complete home theater and house automation design, install and configuration, IIRC. -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted April 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Superdad said: Obviously you trust the former--to tell you that the latest $125 Topping miniature DAC sounds just as good as $10K-$30K reference DACs. That's what we see talked about over at that "other" place. And according to Amir, the mighty Topping must be vastly better than your $300 Emotiva Stealth. Guess it's time for an upgrade, eh Mark? Before discussing what sounds better, could we just get an example of something that actually is different, first, Alex? That's all we are asking here... objectively speaking. Does EtherRegen do anything at all to modify the electrical signal at the output of a DAC? This is where any differences must exist in order to be audible. Provide evidence that might contradict Amir's measurements, which clearly show no differences to way below APx555 limits. We can talk about what "sounds better" after we have at least some objective evidence that it can sound different. Teresa, plissken and Confused 1 1 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 hour ago, manueljenkin said: @Superdad I'd personally be interested in any direct probing/measurements, not necessarily at the output of the dac. Measuring noise at usb output, measuring clock jitter at usb output, or at the i2s pins, or at any other place. A good example is these shunyata research demos. They measure things at the power outlet. From there on its a cake walk to extrapolate the inferences coz transistor power consumption curves are super wild and quite anything could affect them. They are also super sensitive and RF noise can pollute their behavior easily. Few more quantifiable demos. Again, I donot have the budget to own even the entry level shunyata but I'd be inclined to believe them 100% considering their stuff is also used in medical applications. Before people assume I defend these products coz I own them, I donot. The only "snake-oil" products I have are supra usb cable and uptone uspcb (both of which match the USB cabling spec, so hardly snake oil on that front, and subjectively sound very nice). I don't have the budget for any of the higher end stuff. But that doesn't mean I'll fool myself to thinking what I have is all there is to audio. I for one, have worked at physical design engineering, and have had electronics as a course in my undergrad, and everything points to anything being able to change things significantly on the transistor linear/non-linear behavior. Audibility of most things is neither proven nor disproven. Shunyata video is a good example of marketing claims that should be questioned and tested before you "believe them 100%". By the way, that's the reason I got one of these: Teresa 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 22 minutes ago, manueljenkin said: What are your findings? And explain the test procedure. Explain the precision/sensitivity measuring gear (would be nice to know who else uses it). I said I trust them coz they are used in medical side. Not because they claim anything. This is off topic for this thread. The goal was to test the effect of line noise on the output of various DACs. In the process I also tested power strips, power-line filters, a UPS unit, as well as a PS Audio power regenerating plant. Also tested with various power cords. -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, manueljenkin said: Yes. What are your findings, in the measurement parameters as described in the video posted by shunyata. They claimed it to remove noise in the power supply, did it do that or not?. Measuring output of dacs can come in later coz we haven't measured everything that constitutes sound, and are dealing with a high level of abstraction. There's no later. I did this testing a few years ago, trying to replicate another Shunyata video related to power cord and noise on the line. How's this related to EtherRegen? -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted April 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, manueljenkin said: Let's return back to where we started. I asked @Superdadfor a measurement similar to what shunyata did, showing differences anywhere in the link they think they are improving. You told me shunyata is unreliable and that you had made measurements, and that I shouldn't believe them. I'm asking you where's your measurements debunking the measurements made by shunyata!. All I said is that you shouldn't accept marketing claims on faith. I attempted to verify Shunyata's claim a few years ago, and found that I couldn't duplicate their findings. At some point, I'll re-run the tests with new equipment (and software) I have on hand. EtherRegen has been measured and found not to produce a measurable difference at the output of a DAC. There's still no evidence provided to contradict this in any objective way despite nine pages of this thread, lucretius, sandyk and Teresa 1 1 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted April 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, manueljenkin said: I stand at - it is neither proven nor disproven that er can make things better or even different. I think that's a fairly objective stance based on facts. I agree, although I'd modify this slightly: there's some objective evidence that ER doesn't make any difference. There is no objective evidence that it does. lucretius, plissken and Teresa 1 2 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted April 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 1, 2020 15 minutes ago, manueljenkin said: Regarding the power cords. There are independent tests online that also measure differences. I'd doubt your measuring gear if you couldn't trace the difference. Now you might ask me why should I trust those tests. I can bounce the same question to you. Why should I trust asr plots. Can't Amir just draw random squiggles in a tab and publish it as measurements. Atleast the videos are live, the charts we can't say!. Unlike Shunyata, I measured at the output and not at the input. I don't really care if a $10k power cord lowers noise at the power input to my DAC if there is no difference at the output. Amir could do lots of crazy things, but I've confirmed a number of his measurements independently, and so have others. I have no reason to suspect that in some cases he uses a crayon. But sure, that's the point of published objective results: they are repeatable and testable. Show that he is wrong. Provide the evidence, then we can talk. Teresa and lucretius 2 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, manueljenkin said: The measurements done now on the dac/amp side are not conclusive. Why? -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, jabbr said: Well I agree in this case, for example, the $$ I spent on the Topping D7s based on measurements, I found to be a big waste because I don't like the sound. On the other hand the Pro-ject S2D was a great purchase. Do you have a measurement that predicts my preference? All I've been discussing so far is a difference, not a preference. There's no demonstrated measured difference in the ER case, so how could there be a preference? sandyk 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted April 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, mfsoa said: Why can't we discuss what sounds better after hearing what it sounds like compared to similar devices? If you did this but later learned that the measured results did not support your belief that the unit is supposed to improve sound quality, does the unit now sound worse? If you did this but later learned that the measured results support your belief that the unit is supposed to improve sound quality, does the unit now sound better? Having the number 11 printed on a piece of paper when a competitor unit has the number 7, I just don't see how this information changes what you hear. This being an ostensibly 'objective' thread, I'll take any objective evidence. If you can demonstrate in a properly controlled test that you prefer ER over a simple switch, I'll take that, too. Teresa and daverich4 2 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, plissken said: Why can't I find a single subjectivist willung to evaluate blind? It's a risk. Just like you wouldn't put a hand in the fire because you know you'll likely get burned, you wouldn't want to try a test that likely will cast doubt on a tightly held, precious belief system. -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, Iving said: This is just bait guys - and you know it. I'm not a subjectivist, and don't have an axe to grind, but I'd be willing to sit a blind a test. @plisskenI've told you this via PM. Problem is I'm in the UK and you the US. If you want to overcome that, you'd have to pay all out-of-pocket expenses! I mean I wouldn't pay since I don't care that much - I already know what I think. There are other problems. You may be able to embarrass me - who knows - I shouldn't mind - I'm not an Uptone apologist - just an eR user happy I've got one - so it's really not worth your bother. If you wanted a properly conducted listening test upon which a good argument might rest, you'd need far more subjects than just me. Plus the whole thing would have to be designed in such a way that you could eliminate the possibility of a false negative. I wouldn't be deterred even if cast into poor performance in my own listening environment. My room, system and my music etc. Contextual variables are more-than-plausibly relevant. Honestly I don't know how much context and familiarity would matter since I don't know how likely it is I would pass a test consistently either at home or in the lab. I feel I might pass since I value the eR in my system. But this is the right kind of conversation. Measurements. Design. Procedure. Stats. Reproducibility. Correct, logical interpretation. I read somewhere recently here at AS an objectivist stance that a listening test wouldn't satisfy - which is quite bizarre - and I can't recall details for which apologies - I just mean we'll never get to the bottom of this since you can't satisfy all the people all the time. It's very unlikely that anybody will ever produce empirical data demonstrating *beyond all reasonable doubt* that the eR is scientifically justified (e.g. lab based listening tests under standard conditions with non-self-selecting Ss and p nicely below 0.05 etc) or scientifically unjustified - since that would involve either an unassailable technical argument (search me I'm not your man) or eliminating all false negative explanations. You are only ever going to end up with a balance of probabilities. People will be convinced by what they want to be convinced by. We are all like that. It's just funnier to watch in people who won't admit it, or who who cleave to Scientism as a religion. Objective-Fi is about proper harnessing of measurements. Empirical rigour. Rational argument. Really we shouldn't carry on with prejudice from either side. We should get data or move on. If you think Uptone should produce data - that's a point of view. But it's not a scientific one. It's a political or ethical one. I have nothing to say about that. I don't care. I'm happy to make up my own mind. I don't need a nanny. You say you are not a subjectivist, so aren't you curious at all? Since you are in possession of an ER and I assume can get a simple ethernet switch to compare it to, what prevents you from conducting a test where you don't have the knowledge of which of the two switches is in the circuit? Run the test 10-15 times, have a loved one switch them for you at random, without telling you. Or work with @plissken who, I presume, can help you build a more automated switching system between the two. Teresa 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 7 minutes ago, Iving said: You think I'm going to twist her arm to do a single S listening test to satisfy you? No way brother lol. I might ask her anyway. See if she'll sign up here to join the fun. I'll let you know - but only if she says yes. Blind tests are more fun than cooking dinner... subjectively speaking Teresa and Iving 1 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, Iving said: I'll need a lot more convincing than that! I'll work on a better sales pitch. -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 13 minutes ago, manueljenkin said: or ask ASR to validate their components with just static tones. What's up with these so called objectivists dismissing anything of scientific concern or knowledge transfer. Speaking of which. I know that you had mentioned that static tones are a problem before. Can you elaborate what the issue is, and how your test signal (I believe you mentioned you developed one) solves it. I'm genuinely curious, as I've been working on some test signals recently. -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 19 minutes ago, manueljenkin said: I'd like to take more time, get it reviewed and published as a paper. I'll keep mum on details till then. Issue is simple, we assume everything to be LTI, which they are not, even the sampling process has aberrations and compensations for the same. So simple tests like autocorrelation from sine sweep can't parametrize them fully. A lot of things are still under study just like human perception. I didn't say static tones are a "problem" when probed properly. I just said they are not a complete analysis of the device in hand. And you can't conclude anything without having a complete analysis/parametrization. Ok, since we can't talk about your test signal, maybe we can critique mine. Multitone signal, auto-generated with up to many thousands of tones, low-crest optimized. Analysis below removes the test signal and leaves all distortion, shown in white. This includes HD, IMD, jitter, and all the noise. The number on the right is an RMS value of total distortion plus noise. Example below is real, captured through a relatively inexpensive Apogee interface DAC/ADC loopback. Is this static? What doesn't this capture? What issues do you see? (by the way, frequency response and phase are both easy to derive from the result, but I've yet to do it) -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 8 hours ago, manueljenkin said: I need a bit more detail on the sampling rate etc. To check on the sampling artefacts and filtering artefacts will need an analysis of the ADC in use. But this is more of a static/averaged signal. Transient analysis will be one from an inertial frame of reference. The path from inertia to steady state denotes the transient curves. The type of filter/sampler design to measure transients and steady state phenomenon need not be same. Every design will have a bound within which they perform optimal. This is a tool for quickly assessing DACs and ADCs in a loop-back configuration. Sample rate, etc. are all up to the device and are selectable. The capture I posted was at 96kHz. No, the signal is not static. And not averaged. One FFT-size worth of samples is collected and processed. And, of course, the frequency domain and the time domain are interchangeably representing the same exact data. Here's that multi-tone signal, zoomed-in in the time domain: plissken 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
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