#FutureFi -- The Clock is Ticking

[bobfa]

#FutureFi

The Clock is Ticking!

 

 

I see a shift in some areas of our listening systems. There is a growing movement of systems that are mechanically less complex. Speakers Systems such as the KEF LS50, LSX, or the Elac Navis ARB-51 reduce the need for racks of equipment in the listening space.

 

On the other end of the speaker cable, we have single package systems, such as the Naim Unity Atom or the NAD M10.

 

There is a third #FutureFi trend where the speaker system design also includes the ability to help correct for room issues along with the reduction of components.  The Pro Audio market might have a partial lead on this, but Home HiFi is following along. There are systems such as the Beolab 90 at the very top end of this spectrum.

 

I have been enjoying the Kii Three System from Kii Audio while I have been concentrating on the things that feed music to the Kii Threes. I have "blissfully ignored" the room and a couple of other items on my looking forward checklist.

 

This week I decided to move the needle on some other parts of systems design. I am also expanding my world a bit on the speaker front to do a subjective listening test of the Dutch and Dutch 8c and then a comparison of them to the Kii Three's.

 

These two speaker systems are designed to present a time coherent wavefront and to dramatically reduce the effects of many room issues by focusing the sound towards the listener. Both speakers are close-set to the front wall of the room, which makes them more family-friendly. They are both have similar goals but with significant differences in approach.

 

For the next month, I will have both speaker systems available to listen and compare.  I will start by setting the Kii Three's aside for a while and learn how the Dutch and Dutch 8c feel in the room. I hope that a month is enough time!

 

Both the 8c and the Kii Three's have a single input that is either AES or Balanced. The Kii Control adds other digital inputs and a volume/power control where the 8c Connects to ethernet for speaker system control.  I will be using the AES inputs for most of this testing.

 

I have several goals: I want to understand what the Dutch and Dutch 8c means to the home audio user. How does it fit? I want to contrast that against the Kii Threes. The third factor is the BXT modules on the Kii's. The BXT changes the Kii design by presenting the system as a line source rather than a soffit. What does all of this feel like in the room?

 

Then expanding my learning, I will look to implement room correction on both speaker systems. I am not sure where this will go yet, as I have not thoroughly planned it. I am studying REW as a tool to start.

 

Bob

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Incoming Inspection

 

 

Unboxing

 

 

 

A Visual Comparison

 

 

 

Let the listening begin

 

 

 

 

[bobfa]

http://lanspeaker.com

 

As I am learning the Dutch and Dutch 8c, I was unable to find any documentation of what the control software looks like before I got the speakers, so here is a little video. 

 

--------------------------------
So here is a little annotation on the video. 

From the web-app, you can see the speakers on your network and any groups you have created. I have created a group called "LR" for Living Room.  

From the group, you can control the volume of the group, you can mute with the speaker icon, or you can turn off the low base stuff by clicking on the moon icon, so you do not rattle the neighbor's wall behind your speakers!

There is a sleep/on and input selection next to the volume up and down buttons

In the upper left is the settings gear that lets you change things like bass and treble, etc.

The settings for each speaker are more extensive, with setting for boundary control and much more.

Much more Later!

Bob

[bobfa]

27 minutes ago, mitchco said:

@bobfa check out my review that includes adjusting Active Room Matching and PEQ's. I hope you are enjoying them!

The 8c. Speakers are really enjoyable.  They have a different feel from the Kii Three system.  I am not ready to articulate it yet.  One album I listened to yesterday day wasGeorge Winston Plains.  I felt and heard things there that I do not remember hearing before.   They do not have a lot of time on them yet, I am not sure about break-in needs.

 

I have re-read your Kii and D&D articles and I bought your book a while back.  This is fun learning.  I sent you a PM about an idea I have!

 

Bob

[bobfa]

Over the past few days I have been dipping in and sampling the 8c.’s, they seem to be settled in.  I listened to a few tracks from George Winston’s Plains album:

 

   

The opening track is giving me a preview of what is to come.  There is a wonderful openness to the sound of the piano and I Gerorge Winston’s talents come through in spades. 

 

 

As I said in the beginning, I wanted to include working on Room Correction in this project.  To that end  I am working with @mitchco at https://accuratesound.ca to help me  measure my room, place the speakers  and setup the right filters in the 8c’s ! We will do the Kii Three’s too.  I am excited to hear the results.

 

Bob

 

 

[bobfa]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

Really looking forward to your findings!
 

I have a friend in Naperville who’s considering Dali’s Rubicon 8C active system, although I’ve pointed him at Mitch’s reviews of Dutch & Dutch and Kii.

 

He and I heard Dali’s lower priced Callisto 6C system at AXPONA last year, and were very impressed. Maybe surprisingly, I was underwhelmed by the Kii’s when I heard them at Munich High End. But you know how show environments are. 🙄

 

I’m curious how far beyond the Dali the D&D goes in SQ. Hard to say, I know.

I feel very fortunate to be able to actually do this testing! I am at the point where I am learning what the D&D 8c. sound like.  As you know you have to un-learn so you can learn.  I have set the Kii's in the other room for now.  I hope to accomplish a couple of things here pretty quickly.  First is to establish a baseline in my head for the 8c. system then do the room correction DSP with the help if @mitchco.  Then replicate that same set of tests with the Kii's. 

 

I have listened to the Kii's at and audio show and believe me they are capable of much more with the right things around them.  Power has been critical.  I now feed them with two power cords per side.  One to the speaker and one to the BXT.  Rather enlightening.   There is more.  

 

Over this last week as the 8c.'s settle in and my brain adapts they are very impressive, there is something very special in there.  I went back and re-read all the reviews I could find and there is very little directcomparison between them.  Reading @mitchco reviews again was informative and helped drive me down this path. 

 

I have no way to test the Dali.  I have no idea.  I did not know that Dali was "activating" the 8 series.  I see they have done the 6 series..  All well.  I cannot test them all.  

 

Bob

 

 

[bobfa]

Continuing “The Journey” 

 

First steps into room correction.

 

I as noted before, I am working with @mitchco of https://accuratesound.ca/ to develop room correction convolution filters using the Audiolense software I purchased in order to capture the impulse response of the 8c.’s and room,  so that Mitch can do the magic.

 

Here is the first test configuration we are working with using the Dutch and Dutch 8c.’s

 

 

As Mitch says, we have a pretty ideal situation here. The curves look very good, and the correction is almost textbook. I was taken aback by a couple of things. One is the clarity of some of the vocals I am hearing. I did not realize how much this would improve vocal clarity. Second, the filter has a noticeable effect on the overall volume level because it is subtractive. I think it is about 5db down.

 

 

Next, I am going to do a mic location balance setup using the log sweep alignment software to align the microphone placement almost perfectly. This procedure is in Mitch’s book, Section 2 C. We will take a couple more measurements and listen to some new filters.

 

 

Just a reminder that these filters are going into Roon, so it is pretty simple to switch things in and out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bobfa]

As I am working from home, which is normal for my business, I take time to go listen to music, etc.  After about two weeks of listening to the Dutch and Dutch 8c.'s I moved the Kii Three's back into the living room for this next round of listening.

 

Both of these systems are phenomenal, how do I describe them?

 

The Kii Three’s are a perfect Martini, and the 8c.’s are a Manhattan!  The Kii’s are clean and crisp where the D&D are robust and full of flavor!  I love both!  I wonder what Musical Parings are perfect for each system?

 

 I found a quote yesterday while studying some of  Siegfried Linkwitz's work that seems to fit what I am trying to discover:

 

Quote

 

What you hear is not the air pressure variation in itself 

but what has drawn your attention

in the streams of superimposed air pressure variations 

at your eardrums

 

An acoustic event has dimensions of Time, Tone, Loudness and Space
 

Have they been recorded and rendered sensibly?

 

Siegfried Linkwitz

 

I could add more to Siegfried's statement above, but it is best to just let it stand and settle in!

 

Bob

[bobfa]

Here is the first set of curves for the Kii Three's Plus BXT.  @mitchco asked me if I was using Subwoofers for this, no this is the BXT.  There is a lot of signal down way low.

 

 

You can see the differences between the two speaker system in the graphs from a couple of days ago.  When I look at the Frequency Response graph I wonder if I need to adjust my boundary controls a bit.

 

So the filter is loaded up in Roon.  I will try to get some listening time this evening!  And continue reading @mitchco's book!

 

Mitch also made a second filter that extends the range down to where the speakers are working in the room.  There is a good response of the BXT in the room down to 13hz.

 

 

I am really happy with the results.  Lots more listening to do.

 

Bob

 

 

 

[bobfa]

3 minutes ago, Matias said:

Were the Kiis + BXT low cut on 25Hz deliberately to be comparable to the frequency response of the 8cs?

The curve was sort of matched to the 8c's. We will be testing further.

 

 

[bobfa]

4 hours ago, Matias said:

Were the Kiis + BXT low cut on 25Hz deliberate to be comparable to the frequency response of the 8cs?

I updated the post above with the full range filter.

[bobfa]

This morning I finally figured out why I could not make accurate-LSR run to balance the location of my test microphone.  The USB devices have to be plugged into the laptop before it boots up so ASIO4ALL works right???

 

So following instructions now and I got the mic centered, and I took another measurement.  Then @mitchco built an updated filter.

 

 

[bobfa]

Sorry all I have been a bit distracted.  I have several customers that needed help and a couple of work projects that take precedence!

 

And well I am also spending this week listening to a Chord Hugo TT2.  Thanks to loaner program at https://www.ttvjaudio.com/

 

 

 

[bobfa]

I have been working a lot and took time to re-do my gardens, one new raised bed, new fencing an exciting idea for low tunnels over the plants. I even planted the snow peas and Kale on Earth Day! Great Project to fill in from IT work.  There are no in-home Audio Sales happening in my house!

 

Well back to the subject at hand.

 

The comparison has come to a close. The Kii Threes with Roon and the CX/EX is the pinnacle of what I have heard in my own home. Working with @mitchco was great. The system design works very well, and The Antipodes gear is the most stable Roon system I have ever used. I did not get a full room correction filter for the 8c's, but what we did do proved to me that they are a close match in this race. I just ended it prematurely! #FutureFi is here, and the price perforce ratio of this system is WAY up there. I do not want to add up the costs, but this system seems to be a bridge too far.

 

The next chapter

 

Today is the beginning of my next great "experiment"! I moved the Kii Threes out of the room. I pulled the Antipodes CX/EX out of the rack. I set the Dutch and Dutch 8C speakers in just the right place. I am feeding them with the Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha USB to AES. (Mogami cables). The computer is my 2014 MacMini running Audirvana. The library is on the NAS in the basement, The Sonore Optical Module feeding the Mac. I am using a Silver Dragon USB cable. The Mac can do a lot of other things like YouTube or the like. I have my 27in Cinema Display sitting on the Victrola. 

 

The next step will be to replace the Mac Mini with my NUC running Euphony. Or maybe try the computer design that @austinpop is using for a single box system.  

 

Or maybe a complete downsize!  Time will tell.

 

RJF

[bobfa]

I am working through a set of comparisons I have tried my Mac Mini and my NUC with Euphony.  It was a bit of a step back in time.  They both sound good,.... BUT the Antipodes CX+EX just kicks them out of the system!    I am looking to reduce complexity and cost.  

 

I also wanted to really give the 8c’s their due respect for listening.  I am going to have to work with @mitchco on another set filters for them.    

 

I have way too much hardware here.  Time for a sale!  K

[bobfa]

So here is the June update.  I have boxed up the 8C's and all of the Antipodes gear.  The KII Threes and the BXTs are back running.  I am running a set of server experiments with some rather interesting successes.  Under test right now is an ASUS Crosshair VII Hero motherboard (X470) with a Ryzen 7300x processor.  I have move the Apacer RAM and the Optane drive from my Xeon to this hardware.  I am back experimenting again and enjoying it.

[bobfa]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

So bottom line you decided the system with the BXT sounded best, or was there another reason? Andyou are running direct from the server to the Kii Control?

There are several things at play here.  First, I was setting my self up to be an audio dealer out of my home.  That is not going to work now.  Economy and health will not allow for “random” people in my home for extended listening.  

 

Second I am an experimenter at heart.  I want to learn and so the Antipodes gear was filling the best in class demo not experimenting.

 

The Kii’s let me experiment a lot with all the inputs, etc.  They also fit into the room visually better.  The Kii’s have an precision of presentation that I really like.  So yes they sound better.  They are also twice $$ of the 8C’s.   I have not 

 

In my testing right now.  I am using the SOtM PCIe USBext interface to a SOtM TXUSB Ultra to the Kii’s. I am using Euphony Audio software in both Roon+StylusEP and Stylus.  The main variable at the moment is changing Motherboards and CPU’s.   I have a whole thread going on my server testing.  (Oh using two HDPLEX Supplies, and an opticalmodule)

 

I have to go make a pretty picture of my system like @austinpop does.  I also want to thank @Nenon for the ASUS x470 and AMD suggestions.  The Xeon board and CPU I picked sounded really good, this sounds better!  I am thinking it is mostly the cores!