In search of speakers that are more efficient

[davide256]

4 hours ago, davide256 said:

It supports all... future proof. I listened through it at CAF with the Meze Empyreans  and the Dan Clark Voce's, pretty impressive. They also have a model down

thats limited to standard headphones, the MZ3 which is the later upgraded version of the MZ2 I use. It puts out 1W for speakers, vs the 12W amp section

of the Electrostatic headphone amp.

Ahh, a correction. Was not the Voce's I heard, but the Stax SR-009's. Apologies for the confusion

 

[ray-dude]

19 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

Ray - any chance you could provide some more context around how the single driver experience might not be for everyone?  As mentioned, I loved what I heard from the 9.87 at RMAF a few years ago.  None of the music played in that room provided any hint that these single driver speakers would fall short with any type of music.  Their Zeth is something I’ve eyed as a speaker in my price range that I could drive with my TT2.  I’ve yet to hear it but wonder how well it would align to my listening preferences.  

 

I've learned over time that each of us reacts a bit differently to sound.  I overly simplify it as folks that connect more with power information, and folks that connect more with phase information (people are obviously on a spectrum).  My brain is hyper sensitive to phase information.  The more coherent a sound stage, the more it clicks as "real" in my brain.  That sense of "real" (being part of the performance and performance space vs listening to music) is the musical high I go after.  Others seem to react more to the physicality of the music.  I appreciate that as well, but my brain switches into another more when all the phase stuff is aligned.

 

For that, the 9.87's are the best I've heard.  Single driver means no misalignment between sound coming from various drivers and no loss of transparency from cross overs.  The ultra high efficiency means I can drive them directly from my Chord DAVE (which has the best timing precision I've ever heard from a DAC), with no loss in transparency through a pre amp or amp.  Ultra high precision DAC connected directly to a transducer, with nothing but speaker wire in between.

 

With great recordings (even better with binaural recordings), the sounds stage is absolutely (and literally) holographic.  My room becomes the church or studio or club the session was recorded in.  It is a full surround/atmos like experience.  Absolutely wonderful

 

That being said, with a single driver it is almost impossible to get perfect tonal balance across the range of frequencies the driver has to reproduce.  If you are sensitive to tonal imbalances, these are not for you.  In my case, I've found that my brain very easily adjusts to tonal imbalances after a bit of listening, but switch still goes on when the phase alignment and coherence is there and I'm transported to the space with the musicians.

 

The analogy I like to use is when I am walking by a coffee shop, I can tell if there is live music is being played inside, even with all the distortions of the music coming through the walls and glass, etc. Another example, is when I was walking into the airport a year or so ago, my ears perked up because I was hearing live piano. When I went in, I saw that another traveler was sitting at a piano and playing. Even with all the traffic and airport noise, I could tell it was live music from outside the terminal, and I was attracted to it and wanted to listen.  By any normal measure of tonal balance and distortion and noise floor, both being outside the coffee shop and airport terminal are absolutely atrocious.  However, they are still unambiguously real.  

 

Hearing the Omega SAMs then the Vox's completely turned my audiophile world upside down.  The 9.87's give me that sense of real WAY more than any other speaker I've ever heard.  For others, any tonal issues may be a deal breaker.  

 

My advice is to hear them first hand.  If your brain is wired like mine, it will be a life changing experience (audiophile wise).  If not, you'll know right away.  Alas, these are hard to find outside of shows (and even harder with shows getting canceled for Corona virus).  I have a standing invitation to anyone that wants to hear these to visit in San Diego (I have Voxativ Zeth's with the entry level drivers as well, and some Omega Super Alnico Monitors, so we can compare different levels of single high efficiency drivers).  If of serious interest, drop a PM and we an arrange a listening session with our local audiophile group, with an appropriate beverage (or three).

 

(here is a write up I did in another forum - https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hugo-m-scaler-by-chord-electronics-the-official-thread.885042/page-535#post-15146757 )

[tedwoods]

I have the Cube "Nenuphar" 8'' single driver speakers https://www.cubeaudio.eu/nenuphar-mini.

Not uber sensitive by single driver standards (meaning over 97db), but still very sensitive at 92db and also extremely balanced from top to bottom.

They are also available in a 10'' configuration, which goes even lower, along with some other models that offer hybrid combinations adding subs, but even their "entry" model the Bliss C, which I also used to have before upgrading to the Nenuphar has balance, detail, naturalness and real-life presence.

I used to drive them with a 45 type single ended triode amp with ease.

Because the motors (magnets) are super strong and highly damped, they do not really need a lot of power.

Revealing is an understatement for these speakers, as they often remind me of headphones in speaker form...

 

[kennyb123]

8 hours ago, ray-dude said:

 

I've learned over time that each of us reacts a bit differently to sound.  I overly simplify it as folks that connect more with power information, and folks that connect more with phase information (people are obviously on a spectrum).  My brain is hyper sensitive to phase information.  The more coherent a sound stage, the more it clicks as "real" in my brain.  That sense of "real" (being part of the performance and performance space vs listening to music) is the musical high I go after.  Others seem to react more to the physicality of the music.  I appreciate that as well, but my brain switches into another more when all the phase stuff is aligned.

 

For that, the 9.87's are the best I've heard.  Single driver means no misalignment between sound coming from various drivers and no loss of transparency from cross overs.  The ultra high efficiency means I can drive them directly from my Chord DAVE (which has the best timing precision I've ever heard from a DAC), with no loss in transparency through a pre amp or amp.  Ultra high precision DAC connected directly to a transducer, with nothing but speaker wire in between.

 

With great recordings (even better with binaural recordings), the sounds stage is absolutely (and literally) holographic.  My room becomes the church or studio or club the session was recorded in.  It is a full surround/atmos like experience.  Absolutely wonderful

 

That being said, with a single driver it is almost impossible to get perfect tonal balance across the range of frequencies the driver has to reproduce.  If you are sensitive to tonal imbalances, these are not for you.  In my case, I've found that my brain very easily adjusts to tonal imbalances after a bit of listening, but switch still goes on when the phase alignment and coherence is there and I'm transported to the space with the musicians.

 

 

This was really helpful, Ray, thanks.  You reminded me of my initial reaction to hearing a Spectral system the first time.  Something just totally clicked for me.  A big part of it was the holographic presentation.  I had never heard anything like it before.  The speed and timing precision was another big part of it.  I’m far more sensitive to what’s going on in the time domain  than in the frequency domain.  As such (plus the fact that I’m a drummer) the reproduction of drums and percussion matter to me more than tonal balances.  
 

At RMAF the year I heard the 9.87s only a few speakers clicked with me as far as their reproduction of drums:  the 9.87s and the Devore speakers.  
 

Another important quality for me is heft.  My Aerial 10Ts convey this to a satisfactory level.  I wonder how a single driver speaker Zeth might hold up in this regard (when used with their subs).  

I had lived in San Diego for 7 years prior to moving to the Seattle area in 2003.  I have been promising friends I will visit there again in the not too distant future.  Likely I will one day take you up on your invitation.  With the first US coronavirus death having occurred at the hospital less than a mile from my home, that’s not gonna happen anytime soon though.

 

[ray-dude]

1 minute ago, kennyb123 said:

Another important quality for me is heft.  My Aerial 10Ts convey this to a satisfactory level.  I wonder how a single driver speaker Zeth might hold up in this regard (when used with their subs).  

 

 

I have the bass units for the Zeth's (single bass driver and class D amp, vs the dual bass drivers and class A/B amps in the Pi bass units).  The Zeth's + Z bass units are VERY nice, even with the entry level drivers.  In fact, I consider the Omega SAMs + Z bass units driven direct by a Chord DAC to be the best bang for the buck in audio (~$6k for a world class listening experience).

 

For me, the Vox's have enough speed that they have that "snap!" that conveys real physicality.  The pi bass units are absolutely killer.  I don't miss my B&W 802d3's in the slightest (well maybe just a little).  Even the 2W from DAVE drives these to uncomfortable listening levels for me.

 

 

1 minute ago, kennyb123 said:

I had lived in San Diego for 7 years prior to moving to the Seattle area in 2003.  I have been promising friends I will visit there again in the not too distant future.  Likely I will one day take you up on your invitation.  With the first US coronavirus death having occurred at the hospital less than a mile from my home, that’s not gonna happen anytime soon though.

 

 

Would love to host you Ken.  Stay safe and healthy, and I hope things stay contained up there (for all our sakes)

[kennyb123]

13 minutes ago, ray-dude said:

 

I have the bass units for the Zeth's (single bass driver and class D amp, vs the dual bass drivers and class A/B amps in the Pi bass units).  The Zeth's + Z bass units are VERY nice, even with the entry level drivers.  In fact, I consider the Omega SAMs + Z bass units driven direct by a Chord DAC to be the best bang for the buck in audio (~$6k for a world class listening experience).

 

For me, the Vox's have enough speed that they have that "snap!" that conveys real physicality.  The pi bass units are absolutely killer.  I don't miss my B&W 802d3's in the slightest (well maybe just a little).  Even the 2W from DAVE drives these to uncomfortable listening levels for me.

I should really give more consideration to the Omega / Z bass combo.

 

I should mention also that I got to hear the original Pi sans bass units last year.  Unfamiliar system and unfamiliar music, but the purity blew my mind.  Though I listened to them for maybe an hour and a half, I had a really difficult time adjusting to my system when I got home.  The purity of a single driver is something that’s tough to un-hear as I’m sure you know.  He was driving them with a $10k tube integrated which is well regarded though I can’t recall the name. While driving them with the TT2 might give up some of the tube magic, I have a feeling the purity would still blow my mind.

[jcn3]

14 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

Another important quality for me is heft.  My Aerial 10Ts convey this to a satisfactory level.  I wonder how a single driver speaker Zeth might hold up in this regard (when used with their subs).  

 

 

i miss my 10ts every day . . . . what incredible speakers.

[David Whistance]

I use a pair of Ocellia Grandis Signature Calliope .30 Twin's (quite a mouthful) with my PSE 2A3 SET amps, see: http://www.ocellia.com/Anglais/a-ncalliope30twi.html. They are very large and the looks are an acquired taste but the sound is to die for. Well worth a listen if you get the chance. They are made in France but the manufacturer, Samuel Furon, is now mostly based in Canada.

[accwai]

2 hours ago, David Whistance said:

I use a pair of Ocellia Grandis Signature Calliope .30 Twin's (quite a mouthful) with my PSE 2A3 SET amps, see: http://www.ocellia.com/Anglais/a-ncalliope30twi.html. They are very large and the looks are an acquired taste but the sound is to die for. [...]

 

What's the spec on your 2A3 PSE? Any reason for pairing the 12" Ocellia with 2A3 amp? A guy on audiogon forum used to state emphatically that for Ocellia electrics, Calliope .30 must be paired with Quaero PP (15w/chan). Quaero SE (7w/chan) can't handle the .30 so the speakers have to be the 8" Calliope .21... Do you have silver or copper main drivers by the way?

 

And while we're here, this is what a prominent AS expert has to say about wide band single driver and Ocellia:

 

On 12/21/2016 at 5:05 AM, semente said:

[...] Single drivers are a crippled topology, hence the need for subs (and I would add in spite of).

It's shortcomings are well documented.

If you're happy with such a system then your requirements and expectations are well below what I expect from a system.

 

On 12/20/2016 at 4:35 AM, semente said:

[...] I find that the single-driver topology is overly crippled and globally under-performing for music playback (the same could be said for mini-monitors).

Ocellias with tweeters might have a bit more potential but my guess is that you'd really need to be able to accept some very significant trade-offs. [...]

 

So now that the readers have heard from both sides, they can deal with it whichever way they feel most appropriate I suppose...

[gmgraves]

On 2/29/2020 at 3:00 PM, davide256 said:

Ahh, a correction. Was not the Voce's I heard, but the Stax SR-009's. Apologies for the confusion

 

Compared to the much cheaper Stax SR-L300s and the complete HiFiMan Jade 2 electrostatic headphones the $3000 Voce phones are simply inferior. The Stax SR-007s MkIIs and SR-009s are much better.

[David Whistance]

41 minutes ago, accwai said:

 

What's the spec on your 2A3 PSE?

It's one of these: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~valveamp/. Simon, the designer, likes dance music so his SET's have better bass and more drive than most. You can see his thoughts on the design in the "Read it" pages.

Any reason for pairing the 12" Ocellia with 2A3 amp?

Yes, I owned the amp for 20 odd years before I bought the speakers. When I bought them I tried it and it worked very well. I have also used them with some Wrightsound 1.75 45 amps, they also seem to drive the speakers OK but suffer from an earth hum which I haven't been able to deal with yet. 

A guy on audiogon forum used to state emphatically that for Ocellia electrics, Calliope .30 must be paired with Quaero PP (15w/chan). Quaero SE (7w/chan) can't handle the .30 so the speakers have to be the 8" Calliope .21...

Yes, I phoned him and we spoke for an hour or so before I demoed mine. He didn't actually try the speakers with SET's but allowed "experts" to convince him they wouldn't work. He was thinking about trying a 2A3 amp when we spoke.

Do you have silver or copper main drivers by the way?

Silver

I would suggest anyone interested in these speakers try them with their choice of SET before drawing any conclusions

 

[David Whistance]

Re Semente's comments I agree that single driver style speakers are essentially compromised but then so are all other's in my experience. It's really just a case of choosing which particular compromise you are comfortable with. Before the Ocellias over the years I have owned SD Acoustics OBS, Avalon Ascents, Apogee Caliper Signatures, Audiostatics, Quad 63's and Avantgarde Trio's, all with appropriate amplification. For the music I listen to now (mostly acoustic -Baroque, Classical, Folk) the Calliope's are the best I have heard though I know they will not be to everyones taste

[accwai]

13 hours ago, David Whistance said:

[...] I would suggest anyone interested in these speakers try them with their choice of SET before drawing any conclusions

 

Where would one find Ocellia stuff to try?

[David Whistance]

The best thing would be to contact Samuel Furon at Ocellia who will be able to organise something. I heard mine in at his workshop in southern France but depending on where you are I suspect he could hook you up with an owner nearby who would let you hear them.

[John Dyson]

On 3/1/2020 at 1:04 PM, tedwoods said:

I have the Cube "Nenuphar" 8'' single driver speakers https://www.cubeaudio.eu/nenuphar-mini.

Not uber sensitive by single driver standards (meaning over 97db), but still very sensitive at 92db and also extremely balanced from top to bottom.

They are also available in a 10'' configuration, which goes even lower, along with some other models that offer hybrid combinations adding subs, but even their "entry" model the Bliss C, which I also used to have before upgrading to the Nenuphar has balance, detail, naturalness and real-life presence.

I used to drive them with a 45 type single ended triode amp with ease.

Because the motors (magnets) are super strong and highly damped, they do not really need a lot of power.

Revealing is an understatement for these speakers, as they often remind me of headphones in speaker form...

 

How does a single driver produce sound without a lot of FM distortion?   When a wide band is applied to a single diaphragm, then the doppler effect from the moving diaphragm actually noticeably modulates the higher frequencies...   The FM will occur at moderate diaphragm excursions and larger.

 

John

 

[Kimo]

I ran a number of systems using single ended and low powered push/pull tube amps over the years.  Speakers were Omega and Tannoy.  Amps were Fi, Art Audio, Leben, Triode Lab.

 

Speaker/Amp matching can be more problematic than one might think.  There are some rather robust SETs, like Sun Audio, and some not so robust, like the aforementioned Fi.   I remember an Air Tight 300b amp sounding great with a pair of Quad 57s, so sometimes you get surprised in a positive way, but not often.

 

If I were to do it again, I would try and find out what speaker the amp designer used to develop his product and start there.  

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

On 2/28/2020 at 9:12 PM, AudioDoctor said:

I am in the middle of assembling a new system here for myself, and am strongly considering SET amplification, or no more than 40-45 watts of 211 tube power. I am not sure yet...

 

Anyway, I am not up to date on the realm of more efficient speakers, my current pair are Sonus Faber Olympica 1s with a 4 ohm / 87db rating, not exactly efficient.

 

So, where do I need to be looking and listening?

 

Thanks.

 

edit: If it matters, the room is 15.5 x 14 feet with a flat ceiling and will be treated.

I'd strongly suggest you look at Avantgarde horn speakers. 107 db efficient and sound spectacular. I know someone with Avantgardes and a Cary Audio tube amp that probably outputs a few watts. Plus, you can select the color of the horn from a plethora of options. They look as cool as they sound. 

 

I was very close to getting some.

[The Computer Audiophile]

@AudioDoctor, don't even tell me these aren't awesome.

 

 

[AudioDoctor]

They’re on the list. 

[AudioDoctor]

@The Computer Audiophile Chris, where can I audition these? I checked the website and it gave me a place in Canada.

[DuckToller]

7 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

Chris, where can I audition these?

Just go through the door  😉
... perhaps, you may ask @miguelito ???
Avantgarde Acoustic are awesome & helpful people, I am sure they would direct you in the right direction or try to arrange something for you when you send them an friendly mail!
Good luck, Tom

[miguelito]

16 minutes ago, DuckToller said:

Just go through the door  😉
... perhaps, you may ask @miguelito ???
Avantgarde Acoustic are awesome & helpful people, I am sure they would direct you in the right direction or try to arrange something for you when you send them an friendly mail!
Good luck, Tom

 

I am in NYC. My full system: http://goo.gl/66fjxw

 

The AG guys are really very nice.

[miguelito]

On 2/28/2020 at 10:12 PM, AudioDoctor said:

I am in the middle of assembling a new system here for myself, and am strongly considering SET amplification, or no more than 40-45 watts of 211 tube power. I am not sure yet...

 

Anyway, I am not up to date on the realm of more efficient speakers, my current pair are Sonus Faber Olympica 1s with a 4 ohm / 87db rating, not exactly efficient.

 

So, where do I need to be looking and listening?

 

Thanks.

 

edit: If it matters, the room is 15.5 x 14 feet with a flat ceiling and will be treated.

How do you get 45 watts out of 211s in SET mode?

[AudioDoctor]

11 minutes ago, miguelito said:

How do you get 45 watts out of 211s in SET mode?

 

Ask Lampizator...  They say their 211 Balanced Amps make 40 watts with 2 211 tubes.

 

edit: They are push pull.

 

edit 2: I am not sure now, the Pacific Balanced amps are rated at 40 watts, the 211 Balanced are rated at 85 watts and are push pull...

 

edit 3: Someone smarter than me is going to have to figure this out:

"It’s a single-ended triode operation from input to output transformer. In conventional push-pull amplifiers, the phase splitter circuit divides the signal into two parts, positive and negative. But, cleverly, in the True Balanced amplifier the phase splitter circuit is not used; instead it utilizes a SET for both incoming and signal phases (input balanced source signal). It amplifies these signals independently with their full power intact."

[miguelito]

3 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Ask Lampizator...  They say their 211 Balanced Amps make 40 watts with 2 211 tubes.

 

edit: They are push pull.

 

edit 2: I am not sure now, the Pacific Balanced amps are rated at 40 watts, the 211 Balanced are rated at 85 watts and are push pull...

 

edit 3: Someone smarter than me is going to have to figure this out:

"It’s a single-ended triode operation from input to output transformer. In conventional push-pull amplifiers, the phase splitter circuit divides the signal into two parts, positive and negative. But, cleverly, in the True Balanced amplifier the phase splitter circuit is not used; instead it utilizes a SET for both incoming and signal phases (input balanced source signal). It amplifies these signals independently with their full power intact."

 

I don't know what they are talking about...

 

But the Kagura amps, I believe, are SET 211s and put out 50W:

 

https://www.audionote.co.jp/en/products/power_amplifier/kagura-i.html