DIY Project High Performance Audio PC with high quality wiring

[StreamFidelity]

49 minutes ago, elan120 said:

Just curious, what is the current consumption when running EC modulator from 44.1K to DSD256 and how hot is the power supply?

 

It depends on the filter. With poli-sync-ext2 approximately 12V / 2.5A - 3.5A are used (CPU 17%). I also use the Convolution (384kHz / 64bit). With my current favorite filter poly-sinc-short-lp, around 12V / 2.6A - 5.1A are used (CPU 28%). The Keces with 12V gets quite hot in both cases, but stays always below 80 °C, otherwise over temperature protection would trigger. The other Keces P8 stays in any cases between 19V / 1.5A - 1.9A and only gets lukewarm. The sound with the computationally intensive filter is just fantastic.

 

[elan120]

31 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

It depends on the filter. With poli-sync-ext2 approximately 12V / 2.5A - 3.5A are used (CPU 17%). I also use the Convolution (384kHz / 64bit). With my current favorite filter poly-sinc-short-lp, around 12V / 2.6A - 5.1A are used (CPU 28%). The Keces with 12V gets quite hot in both cases, but stays always below 80 °C, otherwise over temperature protection would trigger. The other Keces P8 stays in any cases between 19V / 1.5A - 1.9A and only gets lukewarm. The sound with the computationally intensive filter is just fantastic.

I am running mostly with poly-sinc-xlr-lp -2s filter, when upsampling from 44.1K to DSD256x48 with EC7, current consumption in my case with 20V to HDPlex 800 DC-ATX to EPS is maxed out around 4.2A and the case is fairly hot as well, in fact, to the point I added an external heat sink to help with heat dissipation.  Your ATX power consumption is a bit higher than mine, but they are in similar range.

 

I plan to do some testing in couple weeks to see how SQ difference would be connecting a 12V LPS directly to EPS like your setup.  Hopefully it will be for the better.

[MagnusH]

I have a vanilla network card (TP-Link TG-3468) and motherboard ASUS ROG STRIX Z270H GAMING, and now I got the "urge" to tweak a little:

1. Replace 3.3v on the network card with high quality linear voltage regulator board and power from LPS (basically cut the 3,3v connection to the PCIe and solder new connections to linear power regulator board).

2. Replace the clock on the network card, which has name LM25.000 20 (dunno exactly what that means)

3. Replace the clock on the motherboard (I don't know what frequency it has).

 

I have soldering skills and equipment, and I can fix 1, but what crystals would be suited for 2 and 3 to get good sound quality without spending to much (i.e. accurate with low phase-noise).

 

I know this wont magically transform my computer to a high-end audio computer, but it will be a start 🙂

[StreamFidelity]

@MagnusH 

In this DIY project, the focus is not so much on soldering work, but rather on assembling an audio PC with standard components. So very suitable for bankers like me. 😄

 

If you want more (for example installing an OCXO clock) you can get very good information in this thread:

 

[Brianfromspace]

Can I please ask @StreamFidelity if you considered the HDplex 300w LPS, it seems ideal with the 12v and 19v w/10A and 2 other rails for the ethernet and usb pcie cards. And if you did, why did you go with Keces?

 

 

[StreamFidelity]

18 hours ago, Brianfromspace said:

And if you did, why did you go with Keces?

 

In my experiments I learned that a lot of heat can be generated by the high power loss through different voltage taps. I have therefore started to use "two" Single Keces P8 (for 19V and 12V). Another way is to use two galvanically isolated supply rails in one chassis. For example builded in Paul Hynes SR7.

 

What I like about Keces P8 is the good availability, the current power display and the protection mechanisms (e.g. Over Temperature Protection).

[Brianfromspace]

On 6/3/2020 at 8:23 AM, StreamFidelity said:

 

In my experiments I learned that a lot of heat can be generated by the high power loss through different voltage taps. I have therefore started to use "two" Single Keces P8 (for 19V and 12V). Another way is to use two galvanically isolated supply rails in one chassis. For example builded in Paul Hynes SR7.

 

What I like about Keces P8 is the good availability, the current power display and the protection mechanisms (e.g. Over Temperature Protection).

Thanks for you answer, very helpful.

[Iansr]

On 5/3/2020 at 12:28 PM, StreamFidelity said:

 

At least I was able to find out from him that high-purity and directional copper is used. He considers UPOCC and other descriptions to be marketing shouts.

 

“directional copper” ??  Go on then, give me a laugh and tell me what that is.

[The Computer Audiophile]

13 minutes ago, Iansr said:

 

“directional copper” ??  Go on then, give me a laugh and tell me what that is.

Just a warning. If often isn't what you say, but how you say it. You're starting a conversation that will not end well, with those words. 

[Iansr]

If that’s a reference to molecular structure then fair enough, but if it’s implying that the copper conducts better in one direction than the other, then I make no apologies for being provocative. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, Iansr said:

If that’s a reference to molecular structure then fair enough, but if it’s implying that the copper conducts better in one direction than the other, then I make no apologies for being provocative. 

No worries about your views, but people aren't here to be challenged by a provocative person. They are here to have fun, enjoy audio, and learn something. It's difficult to learn from a button pusher. You're more than welcome here, but please be collegial. If this just isn't your style, there are many other sites where confrontation and provocation is their bread and butter.

[auricgoldfinger]

6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

No worries about your views, but people aren't here to be challenged by a provocative person. They are here to have fun, enjoy audio, and learn something. It's difficult to learn from a button pusher. You're more than welcome here, but please be collegial. If this just isn't your style, there are many other sites where confrontation and provocation is their bread and butter.

 

I wonder if lansr and mansr are somehow related. 

[Iansr]

Your equanimity is disarming😉.   I’m a perfectly reasonable, intelligent guy and I am perfectly happy to allow others their point of view 99.9% of the time without feeling the need to challenge them.  Just occasionally though . .  .    But hey, maybe I’ve misinterpreted the comment.

[StreamFidelity]

1 hour ago, Iansr said:

If that’s a reference to molecular structure then fair enough, but if it’s implying that the copper conducts better in one direction than the other, then I make no apologies for being provocative. 

 

That is the mistake in thinking. As I understand it, it is not a question of which direction the electrical current conducts better, but which direction it sounds better. 😉

 

Different theories are discussed. See, for example, Mono and Stereo:

 

Wire Directionality Part 2 (Paul Speltz)

Audioquest discusses their theory on wire directionality, which is based on external "noise". My theory is different. Since listening to wire "backwards" sounds very much the same as the time based distortion "jitter" causes in digital audio, I believe backwards wire may be a time-based distortion as well.

 

[evalon]

Hi All, 

 

I have been reading a bit into this thread - and also another current thread here on audiophilestyle dealing with how to assemble a fast and good-sounding computer - and this has given rise to some thoughts and a couple of comments:

 

* I reckon that various settings, components, and PC optimisations may cause various timing and frequency spectra of the clock + data signals sent to the DAC. This may e.g. cause timing differences in the DAC's sampling which may possibly lead to DAC sound differences. I also reckon that depending on the DAC's internal design and incoming data line immunity it may also cause slightly different HF/RF radiation levels into the DAC thus possibly also altering the DAC's sound.

 

* I am thinking, however, that a likely more efficient way to handle this - as by audio standards I assume that most any type of computer even with optimisations would be considered very jittery and noisy - could be to reclock the signal coming from the PC. I realize that many DACs have some kind of reclocking in place but it is also my impression that many of them are not that efficient in terms of close-in phase noise reclocking (phase noise very close to the carrier frequency, e.g. 12.288 MHz for 192 kHz) or overall very low phase noise/jitter values.

 

* If a very effective reclocking was in place I would guess that PC differences would be close to inaudible with a quality DAC because the reclocking eliminates the timing differences coming from the PC. It would, however, not necessarily eliminate the noise spectra carried along with the audio data signal lines from the PC - as these are not normally reclocked this would much depend of the DAC's immunity to incoming noise. 

 

So .. these thoughts somewhat spurred a question which is if some of have compared the observed PC optimisation differences with and without an efficient reclocking in place? 

 

Cheers,

 

Jesper

[StreamFidelity]

2 hours ago, evalon said:

So .. these thoughts somewhat spurred a question which is if some of have compared the observed PC optimisation differences with and without an efficient reclocking in place? 

 

Reclocking is a good topic that I also dealt with. In all my experiments, I found that a PCIe card with a good clock always sounded better than, for example, the normal LAN or USB connection on the mainboard.

 

With the asynchronous USB connection, the master clock is in the DAC. How can reclocking in the audio PC influence this? I dont know. My observation, the better the clock in front of the DAC improve the SQ.

 

There is of course much more to consider. The high quality wiring and a high quality linear power supply. Last but not least, the settings of the drivers, which should be aimed at the lowest latencies, improve the sound.

[evalon]

On 6/14/2020 at 4:28 PM, StreamFidelity said:

With the asynchronous USB connection, the master clock is in the DAC. How can reclocking in the audio PC influence this?

 

Hi ... Well, I have to admit that I had just returned from a vacation when I read and replied to this thread, and at least to some extent I have "had my head under my arm" - as a Danish idiom has it - when I replied ...

 

I believe reclocking is very effective, however, IMHO it needs to be done close to the DAC's (~IC's) clock input so as to avoid the influence of other logic circuitry in the transmission chain. In many cases this is a tricky thing to carry out in practice and would mean actively modifying the DAC.  

 

Another option could be to make sure that the USB/other data transmission is as good as possible. Here I remember reading in one of these PC building threads that one of you used a separate USB transmission "unit". Now, I don't know how this unit is designed but a couple of thoughts here are:

 

* have you tried to supply this USB unit from e.g. batteries?

* Or place a couple of HQ capacitors (e.g. Maxwell ultracapacitors (two in series if voltage is too low) + HQ electrolytic + C0G capacitor) on the PSU line going to the USB unit? 

* Or use a high quality linear supply supplied from a battery? In my experience batteries are outstanding in terms of stabilizing e.g. digital circuitries - and the SQ improvements can indeed be huge.

* Another thought is to move this USB unit close to the DAC - if at all practically possible? - so that the influence from cables inbetween the USB unit and the DAC is reduced. 

* I also might suggest trying out connecting the grounds between the computer motherboard close to where the USB transmission exits and the DAC cabinet e.g. with a solid copper wire. HOWEVER, this needs caution as it should be assured that this otherwise is electrically compatible with the DAC's design and the computer ... But it likely would stabilize the ground level between the two units.

 

As it is I do not have experience with "tuning" a PC for sound quality so I cannot really contribute as to the audible effectiveness of such optimisations. But in my experience two factors have profoundly improved the audio designs I have made over time: battery supply & a superb clock close to the actual DAC.

 

And my guess would somehow be that the optimisations you carry out - and the audible improvements they lead to - are the result of a more stable clock from the computer relative to the clock "needs" of the DAC in question. Be that e.g. because the computer's ground level is better stabilized or because your optimisations actually causes the clock to be more stable and less noisy. Well, whatever the reason it appears to work. 

 

Although in a slightly different direction my two cents on other possible improvements.

 

Cheers,

 

Jesper  

 

 

 

[StreamFidelity]

49 minutes ago, evalon said:

I believe reclocking is very effective, however, IMHO it needs to be done close to the DAC's (~IC's) clock input so as to avoid the influence of other logic circuitry in the transmission chain.

 

Thank you for the good thoughts.

 

I also think the clock should be as close to the signal converter as possible. This is the case with the JCAT USB cards. The better the clock, the better the SQ.

 

On 4/8/2020 at 2:56 PM, StreamFidelity said:

I don't want it to be boring. 😄JCAT has released a new USB Card XE. 

 

Some technical highlights:

- Emerald OCXO (oven controlled oscillator) ±0.005 (±5 ppb) stability 
- ASM3142 USB 3.1 host controller
- LT3045 linear regulators and filters eliminate noise interference from a PC

 

 

The USB Card FEMTO installed in the fis Audio PC is priced significantly lower and remains as a product line. 

 

We will try out the new USB card with the OCXO clock.  

 

Stays tuned 👍

 

49 minutes ago, evalon said:

have you tried to supply this USB unit from e.g. batteries?

 

 

Not yet. I think if it should be really well done, it is very complex and expensive. Look Stromtank. I see problems with the discharge and when charging a microcontroller is responsible. Are the batteries strong enough to absorb voltage peaks? You hear my skepticism. 😉 I'm using linear power suppley. Which battery power supply do you use?

 

 

 

 

 

[seeteeyou]

1 hour ago, evalon said:

I believe reclocking is very effective, however, IMHO it needs to be done close to the DAC's (~IC's) clock input so as to avoid the influence of other logic circuitry in the transmission chain. In many cases this is a tricky thing to carry out in practice and would mean actively modifying the DAC.

 

It's already been done about a month ago, right now it's available from this seller in Japan

 

http://toukiyakoneko.web.fc2.com/complete_model_and_semifinished_product.html

http://toukiyakoneko.web.fc2.com/Jitter_Free_Sound_Model_DAC-7-V1.0.0.pdf

http://community.phileweb.com/mypage/entry/5402/20190916/

 

The most critical part is handled by McDual XO and McFIFO

 

https://twitter.com/iancanadatt/status/869367752854839296

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/207438-ian-asynchronous-i2s-pdif-fifo-kit-buy.html

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/192465-asynchronous-i2s-fifo-project-ultimate-weapon-fight-jitter.html

 

They compared their Daphile dual PC setup (costing almost 1 million yen) to another average Intel Celeron-based laptop running Windows 10 with zero optimization, for whatever reasons they couldn't hear any differences between the two. Then they also swapped 3 different USB cables but once again everything seemed to sound the same

 

Oyaide Continental 5S V2

Asoyaji Audio (with aerospace wires from Gore)

Generic cable from 100-yen shops

 

https://www.my-hiend.com/vbb/showthread.php?5404-走向超值而極緻的-HI-FI電腦訊源（連載）&p=241408#post241408

 

Later on someone else tried that DAC again with the unpowered version of Sablon USB cable (2020 model) and finally there's only an extremely small improvement due to the absence of Vbus (+5V) connection

 

https://www.my-hiend.com/vbb/showthread.php?5404-走向超值而極緻的-HI-FI電腦訊源（連載）&p=241446#post241446

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sablon-usb-cable-2020-model.29912/page-2#post-625197

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sablon-usb-cable-2020-model.29912/page-3#post-627980

 

So that's more like comparing one of the best (unpowered) USB cable out there to several "unremarkable" powered USB cables, some of us might get super angry while others are very happy.

[StreamFidelity]

2 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

It's already been done about a month ago, right now it's available from this seller in Japan

 

It's pretty much the opposite of our DIY Project High Performance Audio PC with high quality wiring. 

[evalon]

@seeteeyou: Hi ... I think there are probably many different reclocking options - and from my own trials they may very much work soundwise. However, when posting my thoughts about improving a dedicated audio PC I did not really intend to go into an "exchange" about whether or not something is effective or not. Having been following audio circles for many years it is my observation that there are so many views, approaches, and opinions that I prefer being a bit on the outside of such "exchanges". So I will take the liberty of leaving this here ...  

 

@StreamFidelity: 

 

Quote

Not yet. I think if it should be really well done, it is very complex and expensive. Look Stromtank. I see problems with the discharge and when charging a microcontroller is responsible. Are the batteries strong enough to absorb voltage peaks? You hear my skepticism. 😉 I'm using linear power suppley. Which battery power supply do you use?

 

Hi again ... hmmm ... I think we have different approaches here 😏

 

I usually design & build "my own" electronic circuitries which also means that I can optimize things to my preferences. Personally I wouldn't use something like a stromtank - much too expensive (for me) and IMHO not efficient where it really matters, i.e. providing "clean" power really close to the circuitries in question. 

 

That said I likely wouldn't venture into modifying a EUR 800 USB adapter - but if there were a less costly adapter I would try to find a relevant "signal" in the PC indicating that the PC (+ USB adapter) power was now "ON" -> connect this "signal" to e.g. a power relay or MOSFET (through appropriate relay/MOSFET drive circuitry) -> connect the relay to a suitable battery or super capacitor -> float charge the battery from e.g. an LT3045 ... and connect the output side of the relay to the USB adapter power input with short wires. And also disconnect the USB adapter's normal power supply line.

 

Without going into precise details the aim of this would be that the USB adapter power was up and running when the PC was switched on & that the USB adapter was now supplied from a very clean power source (I probably would use e.g. two LT3045s in series to get a higher PSRR at high frequencies).

 

Regarding the battery's ability to absorb current & voltage peaks they typically have a very low impedance level. And a basic noise level that is virtually immeasurable (~ <180 dB, typically much better). E.g. A123 26650 types are 6 mohms impedance, some of the supercapacitors are down to 1 mohm (to my knowledge) and they often can deliver hundreds of amperes if required. However, importantly, these impedances are at low frequencies which is why in my earlier post I suggested paralleling capacitors to get a more even filtering/impedance wrt frequency. 

 

Anyway ... I still would prefer to reclock the DAC close to the DAC itself (and IME this really makes a difference) because this is where the DAC timing happens. 

 

With this in mind I will leave it here ... & wish you good luck with your PC endeavours .. 😉

 

Cheers,

 

Jesper

[StreamFidelity]

40 minutes ago, evalon said:

I usually design & build "my own" electronic circuitries which also means that I can optimize things to my preferences.

 

I envy your skills. 👍

 

In fact, this PC audio project is designed to build something really good with high-quality "standard" components. No knowledge of electronics is required. It is not a "tinkered" solution. Everyone can replace high-quality cables, memory or PCIe cards themselves. Even the power supply is variable. You wants to connect a battery. Why not? 😉

 

Regards

Gabriel

[evalon]

Quote

I envy your skills. 👍

 

Well, thanks for your kind words ☺️ ... I reckon most every person has good skills in some areas - albeit the challenge sometimes can be to find out what they are 😇 .. 

 

BTW I was inspired to look at your webpages yesterday, and noticed that you have "something" that can do 1.536MHz & DSD1024 conversion. However, I couldn't exactly see which unit actually makes this conversion ... Is it a DAC or a USB-to-I2S unit or something else?

 

I am asking because I am looking for a high quality USB-to-I2S converter capable of these frequencies and it has been quite a challenge to find ... 

 

Cheers,

 

Jesper 

[StreamFidelity]

2 hours ago, evalon said:

BTW I was inspired to look at your webpages yesterday, and noticed that you have "something" that can do 1.536MHz & DSD1024 conversion.

 

It's the Denafrips Terminator, which can do both USB and I²S: DSD1024, PCM1536 Supports On USB & I²S Input. 👍

[evalon]

Quote

It's the Denafrips Terminator, which can do both USB and I²S: DSD1024, PCM1536 Supports On USB & I²S Input. 👍

 

Ah! ... Thanks for clarifying, Gabriel ... Looks like a very interesting piece of equipment also at a very reasonable price I would guess. Unfortunately (for my uses) it appears to not be available as a standalone USB-to-I2S unit. Well, that's as it may be - but thanks again for your feedback ... 

 

Cheers,

 

Jesper