My response to "Boycott the sub-forum"

[Iving]

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=quint

 

[AudioDoctor]

I am so confused right now...  I am clearly missing something that everyone else knows here.

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 minutes ago, rickca said:

@The Computer Audiophile, please tell me you have no plan to invite Lee Scoggins back.  All he did was try to promote his upcoming articles and continue the MQA obfuscation.  I see no connection anyway between introduction of the Objective-Fi subforum and the idea of bringing Lee back.

Don't worry. This wasn't even on my radar until Sam brought it up. Now it's off my radar again. No plans on such thing.

[Bill Brown]

2 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

I am so confused right now...  I am clearly missing something that everyone else knows here.

 

Don't worry too much, I am in that boat with you....

[Kimo]

10 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

I am so confused right now...  I am clearly missing something that everyone else knows here.

That is how I met my first wife...

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

 

"Shouldn't," backed by sound supporting engineering reasons, is great.  Let people soak it in, learn and benefit from your expertise, then leave it up to them.  Some will be educated and convinced!  "Can't possibly," "irrational," "impossible," "you are delusional," "silly" isn't edifying and is a turn-off (not that you have used all of those).

 

You have previously extended your above comments about digital links to analog cables re. no difference.  I believe (?think) there are equally educated engineers that would disagree.  It feels ok to me that I use a generic USB cable, balanced Canare star-quad interconnects, and Kimber speaker cables.  I believe I hear a difference with the latter.  I don't think I am delusional, but if I am I am still happy .  So what?

Well, you are misinterpreting my current stance on analog cables. Speaker cables can have a real affect on sound because the cables are a real part of the circuit. Amps have different output impedances and react differently to different loads. Speakers also have different impedance CURVES, and cables have to interface to both of those. Speaker cables have differing levels of  DC resistance and capacitance and inductance. Making putting together the best speaker/amplifier connection system a crap shoot at best. As consumers, we have no way of modeling our amp/speaker interface to come up with the ideal cable to maximize the performance of both.

on the other hand, most (if not all) line-level components have very low output impedances and very high input impedances. This means that short runs of coaxial cable between components are not dealing with the kinds of load interactions that are present in the amp/speaker interface, nor are the runs anywhere near as long. My stance is that if one interconnect sounds different from another, it’s because it is attenuating some portion of the audio spectrum with respect to some other portion. I’d rather have an interconnect that doesn’t noticeably attenuate ANY portion of the audible spectrum. But since that doesn’t exist, and because I firmly believe that “boutique” cable makers PURPOSELY alter the passband of their products to make them sound deliberately different from their competition, and I know that it is something over which the audiophile buyer has absolutely no control, I choose to ignore the entire cable selecting fracas!

Please, I didn’t post this to hijack this thread to talk about cables. I posted it just to set right a misrepresentation of my current stand on the subject. No more please!

 

 

[Allan F]

37 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 I know that Ethernet cables and USB cables change the sound because I’ve heard it. I suspect that these naysayers of which we speak here, have not heard it. When you haven’t experienced a phenomenon, and that phenomenon, by all knowledgeable accounts SHOULDN’T HAPPEN, it’s easy to attribute it to some non-system based cause like one’s imagination, or perhaps a willingness to lie for reasons of self-aggrandizement.

 

There's another element at play here, George, As you know, those who insist that sonic differences are impossible, readily dismiss all experiences of those hear them as "expectation bias". However, they ignore the fact that expectation bias can work both ways, i.e. if you are convinced that there can be no sonic difference, you won't hear it if it's there. That is not to say that expectation bias does not exist. It does, but it cannot possibly explain sonic differences heard repeatedly over extended and different listening sessions.

[ShawnC]

48 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

Who the hell is Quint?

Andrew Quint, The Absolute Sound magazine.

[Bill Brown]

To gmgraves:

 

I am sorry I misrepresented your thoughts/statements.  I was under the impression that you had written that properly-engineered/terminated analog cables had no difference in sound.  My understanding of your thinking was inadequately nuanced.

 

I agree re. cables.  I keep it simple and cringe at the exorbitant prices of many.

 

Bill

[gmgraves]

11 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

There's another element at play here, George, As you know, those who insist that sonic differences are impossible, readily dismiss all experiences of those hear them as "expectation bias". However, they ignore the fact that expectation bias can work both ways, i.e. if you are convinced that there can be no sonic difference, you won't hear it if it's there. That is not to say that expectation bias does not exist. It does, but it cannot possibly explain sonic differences heard repeatedly over extended and different listening sessions.

I have always known that expectation bias can be a negative bias as well as a positive one. I.E. I don't expect to hear a difference and so I won't as you say. But it is a free country, and as long as those who hold a different opinion from yours or mine should be allowed to voice that opinion AS LONG AS IT'S done in the spirit of a debate and remains not just civil, but CORDIAL as well, then there should be no shackles on people's ability to voice that opinion. 

To me, I can think of nothing more boring than a forum that has become  a "mutual admiration society" where everybody reinforces everybody else opinions with no dissenting voice. It would be like a country that is allowed only one political party, and opposition is outlawed. Eventually that country's government will become an oppressive, totalitarian one. As contentious and divided as the USA has become over the last few decades, I thank our lucky stars that we still have room for different points of view. I see this forum as a microcosm of the larger political world. We need all points of view to be held and voiced, lest Audiophile Style become a vast empty place where nothing of real interest is ever said, and no progress or personal growth for it's members ever occurs. 

[gmgraves]

32 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

To gmgraves:

 

I am sorry I misrepresented your thoughts/statements.  I was under the impression that you had written that properly-engineered/terminated analog cables had no difference in sound.  My understanding of your thinking was inadequately nuanced.

 

I agree re. cables.  I keep it simple and cringe at the exorbitant prices of many.

 

Bill

No problem. I want to make it clear, that your characterization of my cable stand, was, at one time, quite accurate. Because of what I have learned here, over the years (I have been posting here for almost 13 years now!) many of my views have modified because of the lively debates with those with whom I have disagreed. These people have encouraged me to listen more intently and to try things that I would have blown off as nonsense earlier. I can't and don't blame you for getting me wrong. I was quite stubborn and vocal about my original views on this subject, and neither you are anybody else can read my mind or realize that I have changed my mind, unless I state that I have changed. For the record, while  I agree that Interconnects can sound different, I have vowed not to turn down that street. As you say, Keep It Simple, and look upon expensive "boutique" cables with a jaundiced eye.

[Bill Brown]

Great! Thanks for your understanding. 
 

Bill

[pkane2001]

59 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

There's another element at play here, George, As you know, those who insist that sonic differences are impossible, readily dismiss all experiences of those hear them as "expectation bias". However, they ignore the fact that expectation bias can work both ways, i.e. if you are convinced that there can be no sonic difference, you won't hear it if it's there. That is not to say that expectation bias does not exist. It does, but it cannot possibly explain sonic differences heard repeatedly over extended and different listening sessions.

Check the Objectify forum for a good answer on expectation bias and why it’s important to be aware of it... oh, wait, I don’t think there is anyone posting there. Carry on.

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Check the Objectify forum for a good answer on expectation bias and why it’s important to be aware of it... oh, wait, I don’t think there is anyone posting there. Carry on.

You’re free to be sophomoric or actually be part of the solution. 

[pkane2001]

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

You’re free to be sophomoric or actually be part of the solution. 

Just a comment on the result of alienating and chasing away those who could actually contribute to this conversation with anything but a blank agreement. 

[esldude]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Wasn't he in Mutiny on the Bounty?

He was the ship captain in Jaws.😀

 

I think the MQA ship will suffer the same fate.

[The Computer Audiophile]

17 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Just a comment on the result of alienating and chasing away those who could actually contribute to this conversation with anything but a blank agreement. 

They had 12 years to do so, but chose not to. 

[pkane2001]

4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

They had 12 years to do so, but chose not to. 

 

Right. Nobody from the objectivist camp has contributed anything of value here for 12 years. Now it makes sense why you’d banish them all to a sub-forum.

[AudioDoctor]

1 hour ago, ShawnC said:

Andrew Quint, The Absolute Sound magazine.

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[The Computer Audiophile]

13 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Right. Nobody from the objectivist camp has contributed anything of value here for 12 years. Now it makes sense why you’d banish them all to a sub-forum.

You know as well as I that isn’t what I said. 
 

If the smartest guy in the world is a jerk, I still don’t want him at my party. 

[esldude]

4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You know as well as I that isn’t what I said. 
 

If the smartest guy in the world is a jerk, I still don’t want him at my party. 

Your forum does seem like more of a party for you these days.

[StephenJK]

I see far too much energy being invested into something other than listening to music.  
 

Come on people now

Smile on your brother

Try to love one another

right now.

 

Peace, love, dove, my friends. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

26 minutes ago, esldude said:

Your forum does seem like more of a party for you these days.

If you don’t like it, you are free to leave. 

[esldude]

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

If you don’t like it, you are free to leave. 

Or to stay.

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, esldude said:

Or to stay.

Why would you stay somewhere you don’t like?