The Computer Audiophile Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Archimago said: Hmmm guys, to be honest I don't like the change either and think CC's incorrect; we'll leave that for another discussion... However, is it possible to make the "Objective-Fi" forum become actually the most popular of the forums on here? Actually "the" place to go to for truly open and honest debate? A place where truth and facts about technology and hardware matter more than some bland concept of "respect" that honours members of the Industry just because they say so, and afraid of stepping on toes because someone might feel bad about it and shy to speak up. Courtesy does not mean having to agree with all opinions and there comes a time when one just has to express to another "you're wrong... here's why..." But let's still be courteous. Members could easily look at the topics from other forums and import some of the questions being asked and speak about it candidly. Even if objective-talk and attitudes are ring-fenced into some kind of virtual "underground", we could make that underground a place that even subjectivists know to look at to really get another, potentially more complete discussion... At least the subjective folks who appreciate that maybe it's good to take the "red pill" and come to terms with reality might find this interesting. Heck, we could even respond in the regular forums with a message like "Guys, I have something to say about it... Take the red pill and check out the O-F thread on this." 😉 Just a thought. Thanks Archi. This is exactly what 99% of people here would love. I have emails from both obj and sub people saying the exact same thing as you. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 19, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 19, 2020 @Samuel T Cogley are you really trying to be an audio martyr? If you want to leave, just leave rather than being so disruptive I have to ban you. audiobomber, kennyb123, mourip and 1 other 4 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 Just now, Samuel T Cogley said: This thread is disruptive? Man, that bar sure has lowered since the weekend. This thread in and of itself isn't disruptive. I can handle it. Your posts within it are getting a bit over the top. Just now, Samuel T Cogley said: When the civility dust up happened, I did exactly what you asked. I stopped all snarky comments. I contributed to the Polestar effort. I helped random people in the help thread. I know you are aware of these things. And I just kept quiet hoping others would too and your purge would not be necessary. Absolutely aware of this. You've expressed appreciation for this site and it has been really great to see you participate in a different fashion than snark. I'm also very appreciative of what you've done to help the site. Just now, Samuel T Cogley said: So hopefully you understand my disappointment when I was rewarded with the purge. I understand your disappointment, but I believe it's directed at the wrong person(s). Those who elected to not follow the rules are gone. Please voice your displeasure toward them for acting the way they did. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 19, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 19, 2020 Just now, Samuel T Cogley said: Ok, I'm leaving for now. When you re-instate Scoggins, can I come back for just one "I told you so"? 🙂 OK, no worries. But what do I win if I don't reinstate him? tapatrick and fas42 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 19, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, Bill Brown said: Seriously in the running for the coolest dude on the site. You should meet him in person :~) 4est and Bill Brown 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 19, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 19, 2020 6 minutes ago, rickca said: @The Computer Audiophile, please tell me you have no plan to invite Lee Scoggins back. All he did was try to promote his upcoming articles and continue the MQA obfuscation. I see no connection anyway between introduction of the Objective-Fi subforum and the idea of bringing Lee back. Don't worry. This wasn't even on my radar until Sam brought it up. Now it's off my radar again. No plans on such thing. Teresa, tmtomh and rickca 1 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 3 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: Check the Objectify forum for a good answer on expectation bias and why it’s important to be aware of it... oh, wait, I don’t think there is anyone posting there. Carry on. You’re free to be sophomoric or actually be part of the solution. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 17 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: Just a comment on the result of alienating and chasing away those who could actually contribute to this conversation with anything but a blank agreement. They had 12 years to do so, but chose not to. lucretius and esldude 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 13 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: Right. Nobody from the objectivist camp has contributed anything of value here for 12 years. Now it makes sense why you’d banish them all to a sub-forum. You know as well as I that isn’t what I said. If the smartest guy in the world is a jerk, I still don’t want him at my party. kennyb123 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 20, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 20, 2020 26 minutes ago, esldude said: Your forum does seem like more of a party for you these days. If you don’t like it, you are free to leave. audiobomber, thyname and tmtomh 3 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 20, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 20, 2020 5 minutes ago, esldude said: Or to stay. Why would you stay somewhere you don’t like? Audiophile Neuroscience, tmtomh, opus101 and 1 other 3 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 20, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 20, 2020 21 minutes ago, vortecjr said: Also, while objective people have targeted subjective people here the same is true in the other direction. Absolutely. AudioDoctor and 4est 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 20, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 20, 2020 1 minute ago, tmtomh said: I will say that scolding folks repeatedly "not working to be part of the solution" is not the best way to encourage the use of the new Objective-Fi subforum. Heads you win, tails I lose. I let people be themselves and I get criticized because all I had to do was moderate more rather than take drastic action. I take action, followed by telling people the blunt truth and I get criticized. I hate to hurt people's feelings by telling them to be part of the solution, not the problem, but such is life. I've instituted a solution to a problem and am giving people the chance to be part of this solution. I don't understand why some continue to feel the need to remain part of the problem by attacking the decision over and over. We aren't going back to the free for all. It feels like they only want to stick it to me by attempting to call out technicalities rather than get on with discussing audio and enjoying this wonderful hobby. Objectivists should like being called out and challenged :~) Audiophile Neuroscience, Albrecht, esldude and 5 others 5 2 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 20, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 20, 2020 5 minutes ago, Archimago said: Well said. I agree that it's important not to paint all subjectivists (and all objectivists) with the same brush stroke. Beyond salesmen in the Industry, almost all audiophile consumers I'm spoken to will display some level of doubt about certain things being promoted... I've been to 3 audio shows including RMAF 2019 and a number of local dealer events. Every time one goes to a cable demo for example, just look around and notice the smirks and groans when the audience hears about hard-to-believe claims during the sales pitch. I know some of these folks are way more "subjective" than I am. But even if they've never hooked up a measurement device, or tried a blind test, or never bother reading measurement results, many inherently are aware of controversies and can recognize when certain claims are simply "too good to be true". Anyhow, I've certainly met folks who are "subjective" through and through who through their own experience with things like digital cables have figured out for themselves that they don't make a difference. They've arrived at that insight themselves and it happens to be consistent with what objective measurements show. Just because sighted listening isn't controlled and prone to bias doesn't mean that it's worthless. As such, I agree that there is no "next step" here. I don't think objectivists need think those more in the other "camp" are "fools". Well said. For many people it's about the journey just as much as the destination. We like to listen to cables, as it provides an opportunity for listening enjoyment if nothing else and possibly a good conversation among friends with shared interests. Bill Brown, sandyk, Shimei and 2 others 2 3 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 21, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 21, 2020 57 minutes ago, tmtomh said: Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. Can we all agree to put on an album tonight and post in the Album of the Evening thread? I think we’ll find much that brings us together in that one. tmtomh, jabbr, kumakuma and 2 others 4 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 21, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, Confused said: Very often, the casing, fancy nobs etc. can cost far more than the electronics. Plus we must think about the companies selling the stuff who offer health care to employees, retirement benefits, duplicate stock for issues that arise decades down the road etc... Last time I was at Audio Research the company had over a million dollars in new old stock parts, just incase something breaks on an old unit out in the field. There are so many things that come into play that most people don't think about. fas42, sandyk, Teresa and 4 others 4 3 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 21, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 21, 2020 17 minutes ago, Shimei said: If you make an assertion, statement, etc it is your responsibility, that is, the burden of proof is on you and not your opponent to supply evidence etc of your position. Too many times in the audio circle I am running into people making sensational claims yet they offer no clear objective proof. They then shift the burden upon other people's shoulders even going so far as to sell their products so others may test them. This is certainly a popular way to look at it for many, but completely misses the point of why many are here. People are here to enjoy a shared hobby and have fun along the way. There should be no burden of proof for anyone who just wants to hang out and talk to friends about something s/he enjoys. Talk about buzz killing. The new Objective-Fi area is perfect for those who think proof must be provided. Find a claim in the other areas of the forum, then demand proof in the obj forum. Live and let live. In addition, to suggest a consumer has the engineering burden of proof for anything is a bit over the top. Wit all due respect of course @Shimei :~) Allan F, Teresa, Shimei and 1 other 1 3 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 21, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, Archimago said: Objectivism is literally about taking this concept of the "sound quality" outside and consider whether it measures up to an "ideal". That "ideal" might not be for everyone but at least it provides a level playing field from which we can judge devices using a common yardstick. Furthermore, that ideal exists outside of whether a person's hearing might be failing, or if that person's perception is idiosyncratic, if that person is not an "expert listener", or even if that person lacks insight and may be biased toward a wonderful ad they saw an hour ago or what the salesman just said a few minutes ago before they changed to the expensive cable 🤨. Hi Archi, your paragraph above made me think about people's desire for a black and white world, where decisions don't need to be made, one can't be judged by a decision, and one doesn't have to use his/her brain to decide something. I obviously know this isn't what you're getting at, but I can't help but believe some in the objective crowd are this way. Life is easy when it's 1+1=2. Nobody risks anything and there is no need for discussion. Thus, one possible reason for people to love objective measurements in audio because they are being told that the decision has been made for them and there is nothing more to think about. Again, this is just a stream of thought that just came to me and needs to be fleshed out much more. I'm not directing this at anyone and don't mean to be negative toward any one or group. I think it's human nature to desire simplicity and measurements are one way of taking the brain out of the equation. Perhaps part of what I'm getting at is the status of measurements in many peoples' eyes. To me they mean something, sometimes. I like them, but always read them with a "how does this effect me" type of lens. There are just so many variable in life when humans are involved, that it's hard for me to look at a measurement and make a decision. audiobomber, sandyk, soares and 7 others 2 2 2 4 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Shimei said: In my ideal audio world such data would be readily available as manufacturers are transparent about their products Certainly a very logical, ideal world that many would prefer. lucretius 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 21, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 hour ago, tmtomh said: How is relying on others’ listening impressions any more active or any more rigorous a use of one’s brain than analyzing measurements? How is the conviction that measurements have limited or no useful correlation with sonics any more or less black and white than the belief that measurements and sonics have a fairly strong level of correlation? How does a belief in measurements reflect the human desire for simplicity any more than a belief that one need not pay much attention to measurements? it seems to me that the desire for certainty and for comfortably restricted arenas of inquiry cuts across the objectivist-subjectivist divide, and that a generous (or even accurate) reading of Arch’s comment would be a productive way to move forward. Great questions. Addressing that in bold above: A belief in measurements is absolutely the simplest thing possible. If 1+1=2, my work is done here. I can't make a mistake, I don't have to evaluate anything with my own brain, someone else has decide for me, I can't be judged because I'm only going by the scientific facts, etc... Using one's belief that measurements aren't everything (I don't want to sat they are meaningless), requires one to use their own judgement, opens themselves up to making a "mistake," and requires one live in a gray zone where the decisions come from within. Take the purchasing of a DAC for example. If one is only interested in the measured DAC specifications, the decision is downright simple. Get a Topping, or whatever the measurement of the month says is the "best." Done and done. Anyone comments on it, and the own can just point to 1+1=2, fold his arms, and give a self-satisfied sniff. If one wants to listen to all kinds of DACs, consider the system in which they'll be placed and consider his own tastes, then he is open to the wide world of anything goes. Again, I'm not making any assertions to be used at the next AES convention. I'm just going from a feeling I get from reading people's comments and understanding a little bit about human behavior. 1 hour ago, Archimago said: I don't think this is true or fair Chris. In fact, I believe objectivism makes the decisions harder because one has to use one's intellectual and "best judgment" resources to decide what to measure and judge for oneself whether the results apply to how I understand the world and ultimately whether that result applies to me and how well I can perceive difference. Hmmm... Let's bring this to the Objective-Fi forum :-). Would love to bring it to the Objective-Fi area and discuss it at length. Would be interesting. lucretius, Teresa, esldude and 3 others 2 2 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 21, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 21, 2020 Can we at least get the anonymous discussion back on to @Archimago :~) lucretius, fas42, kumakuma and 2 others 2 3 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 22, 2020 5 minutes ago, SJK said: “Even the best recordings pale compared to a live event”. I’m presuming that’s hyperbole, and meant for dramatic effect. I’d say even the best recordings are a cartoon of the real event. I remember recording engineer Bill Schnee saying the same thing. Teresa, AudioDoctor and Bill Brown 2 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 22, 2020 23 minutes ago, STC said: If we want to move on then we should not be confined to statements made by recording engineers 30 or 40 years ago. Recording of music is not science but more of an art. Taking the words as gospel truth doesn’t help to expand and explore. Sound is sound irrespective whether they are real ( whatever that means) or reproduced. They behave the same way when reaching the ears. If you want the recording to sound like the real event then ensure the same cues are fed to the ears in reproduction. There are various research and experiments done by universities and top manufacturers where they transport you to the real event. I just they use VR glasses and conduct through blind tests and see if they listeners could differentiate the real and reproduced sound. Bill still records the best in the business in Nashville. He told me this recently. AudioDoctor and Teresa 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 14 minutes ago, sandyk said: It appears to be very little different, except that it is no longer in the General area of the forum. The same type of non Objective posts as what supposedly caused the original problems , and not just from Frank. Huh? Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 4 minutes ago, Rexp said: Maybe my joke doesnt translate I missed it, but I’m sure others got it 🙂 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
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