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When do measurements correlate with subjective impressions


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The trouble with statements like that is that they're either meaningless or else self-contradictory when examined. If its not possible to make something any simpler, why the prohibition against it? So I think the word 'possible' needs replacing with something like 'reasonably practicable' to rescue it. Or alternatively, simply don't examine it at all.😉

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I think " Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler" (Einstein? but could be apocryphal) is a great goal but of course there is "reasonably practicable". In either case it is difficult to agree (or know?) when the goal has been reached. happy to continue discussing elsewhere but not here as I think it would move off topic.

Cheers

David

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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17 hours ago, opus101 said:

The trouble with statements like that is that they're either meaningless or else self-contradictory when examined. If its not possible to make something any simpler, why the prohibition against it? So I think the word 'possible' needs replacing with something like 'reasonably practicable' to rescue it. Or alternatively, simply don't examine it at all.😉

 

a counter example to show how wrong this is:

another telecommunications example (sorry)

in a data system, i want to measure the data throughput when downloading from the web.

i can model all of the downlink and show its capacity from the physical layer, frame sizes, signal to noise ratio, etc.

 

however, the downlink rate depends on tcp/ip (and RLC as well on a cellular wireless network) which is a bi-directional protocol.  if i have lots of errors or lots of latency in the uplink, it will throttle the downlink.

so simplifying the simulation is certainly possible and will give you an answer, but the wrong one in my opinion. (just ask anyone with a cable modem with a oversubscribed shared uplink!)

 

so, it is absurd to say that oversimplification is meaningless or self-contradictory.

oversimplification is rampant, both intentional (e.g. the real world is too complex so we have to, or my boss wants a yes/no answer so i have to) and unintentional (we're all a lot smarter today than we were before, and likely to be a lot smarter in the future)

 

by the way, i have no intention of starting (or participating in) a food fight or philosophical discussion.

i'd like to see this thread stay technical and help solve problems.

 

as always, YMMV

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2 hours ago, cat6man said:

so, it is absurd to say that oversimplification is meaningless or self-contradictory.

 

 

Seems then you misunderstood my point. I wasn't in any way trying to say there's no such thing as oversimplification (I am, like you convinced there definitely is), I was merely pointing out the internal self-contradiction in the expression.

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5 hours ago, cat6man said:

fyi for linux folks.............i installed DISTORT under Crossover (supported version of wine) but i could not get all parts of it working (didn't see plots, for example).  installation automatically installed .NET framework 4.5

 

when i installed .NET framework 4.6.2, i started to see the plots and was able to save a WAV file after going through distortion

 

WINE 5 worked for me under Ubuntu 18. It installed the correct .NET framework automatically with DISTORT and all functions seemed to work after that.

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14 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

WINE 5 worked for me under Ubuntu 18. It installed the correct .NET framework automatically with DISTORT and all functions seemed to work after that.

 

thanks.........i was still running WINE 4 when I had to change the .NET framework.

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Just came across this video by two researches, Steve Temme, and Sean Olive, on correlating objective measurements (THD, IMD, NCD) and subjective preferences for a number of headphones. This is a discussion of an AES published paper results covering this topic:

 

 

 

The published paper: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14232

 

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On 2/20/2020 at 10:32 AM, jabbr said:


You are really trying to get me to install Windows aren’t you?

Or, bring up a tempoary version under VMware or under one of the emulators built-in on Linux (using gnome.)  In emergencies, I tend to use VMware instead of the built-in tools, but is limited to non-commercial use.   It is easy to run windows under an emulator...  I normally do not do it -- and use a laptop for Windows.

I forget if audio works under VMware, but seem to remember that it just might.

John

 

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On 7/14/2020 at 10:24 AM, John Dyson said:

Or, bring up a tempoary version under VMware or under one of the emulators built-in on Linux (using gnome.)  In emergencies, I tend to use VMware instead of the built-in tools, but is limited to non-commercial use.   It is easy to run windows under an emulator...  I normally do not do it -- and use a laptop for Windows.

I forget if audio works under VMware, but seem to remember that it just might.

John

 

 

Yes, audio works under VMware but there are limitations -- the 2 limitations I can think of off hand are:

1) You are limited by the capabilities of the "virtual" sound device. (You can forget about playing DSD!)

2) I cannot get exclusive mode to work inside a VM. This creates a lot of problems (e.g. changing sample rates and bit depths, etc.).

 

 

 

mQa is dead!

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2 hours ago, lucretius said:

 

Yes, audio works under VMware but there are limitations -- the 2 limitations I can think of off hand are:

1) You are limited by the capabilities of the "virtual" sound device. (You can forget about playing DSD!)

2) I cannot get exclusive mode to work inside a VM. This creates a lot of problems (e.g. changing sample rates and bit depths, etc.).

 

 

 

 

In theory, one should be able to connect a USB DAC directly to a VMware VM.  I had very limited success with that -- it only worked for lower sample rates and would sometimes cut-out -- it choked on high sample rates.

mQa is dead!

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2 hours ago, lucretius said:

 

Yes, audio works under VMware but there are limitations -- the 2 limitations I can think of off hand are:

1) You are limited by the capabilities of the "virtual" sound device. (You can forget about playing DSD!)

2) I cannot get exclusive mode to work inside a VM. This creates a lot of problems (e.g. changing sample rates and bit depths, etc.).

 

 

 

 

I use VMWare with a USB DAC connected to the host computer (iMac in my case). No problems! When connecting the DAC to the Mac, I get a prompt from VMWare asking if I want to connect it to MacOS or Windows. Connecting it to Windows makes it work just fine with WASAPI and ASIO drivers installed on the VM. That's how I do most of my development.

 

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1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I use VMWare with a USB DAC connected to the host computer (iMac in my case). No problems! When connecting the DAC to the Mac, I get a prompt from VMWare asking if I want to connect it to MacOS or Windows. Connecting it to Windows makes it work just fine with WASAPI and ASIO drivers installed on the VM. That's how I do most of my development.

 

 

My experience was with a Linux guest. I don't have any Windows guests. Nonetheless, I am glad to hear it will work with a Windows guest  Does it work in exclusive mode?

mQa is dead!

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3 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

My experience was with a Linux guest. I don't have any Windows guests. Nonetheless, I am glad to hear it will work with a Windows guest  Does it work in exclusive mode?

 

Yes. The USB device is mapped directly to VMWare, MacOS doesn't see it or control it in this case. The native DAC driver inside Windows VM sees this as a proper type USB device connected to Windows. I've even done firmware updates this way on one of the DACs 😱

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