New Objective-Fi Sub-forum

[esldude]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

If this change was about money, then yes. But it isn’t. It’s about making an enjoyable hobby fun. Most people don’t bring a dietician with them to every restaurant so s/he can tell them how they are screwing their body. People like to enjoy audio without the audio police on their backs at every turn. 

Is this the "you didn't use a linear power supply" audio police or the "you haven't heard it so you can't comment upon it" audio police?

Maybe the "your system isn't good enough to hear it" audio police or one of the variants of the "you aren't a music lover" audio police.

 

Reminds me of a streaming comedy called the "Medical police".  Sort of bad timing with events in China too. 

 

 

[Ralf11]

6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

If this change was about money, then yes. But it isn’t. It’s about making an enjoyable hobby fun. Most people don’t bring a dietician with them to every restaurant so s/he can tell them how they are screwing their body. People like to enjoy audio without the audio police on their backs at every turn. 

 

you said this place was your livelihood - now say it is not about money

 

you need to make up your mind

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, esldude said:

Is this the "you didn't use a linear power supply" audio police or the "you haven't heard it so you can't comment upon it" audio police?

Maybe the "your system isn't good enough to hear it" audio police or one of the variants of the "you aren't a music lover" audio police.

 

Reminds me of a streaming comedy called the "Medical police".  Sort of bad timing with events in China too. 

 

 

The audio police on both sides are equally as guilty. I make no excuses for either. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, Ralf11 said:

 

you said this place was your livelihood - now say it is not about money

 

you need to make up your mind

My mind is made up. Stop wasting my time. The change isn’t about money and I used the example of it being my livelihood to show I just might have more experience with how forums work than Joe Sixpack. 
 

 

[lucretius]

So where is the "New Fantasy-Fi Sub-forum"???

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, lucretius said:

So where is the "New Fantasy-Fi Sub-forum"???

 

According to the extremists, it’s everywhere except the Objective-Fi sub-forum. 

[Shimei]

22 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

According to the extremists, it’s everywhere except the Objective-Fi sub-forum. 

 

Just curious as I've read some posters referring to others as being an asshole or arrogant etc. Is there an actual definition of either and or method in determining whether one is truly an ass or arrogant, objectively speaking? Is this board tolerant of identity politics, that is, whether one self identifies as a frizzy haired brown eyed lad or not? 

 

Please follow an actual scientific method 'observation test-ability and repeatability', that is, in contrast to Darwinian 'macro evolution' or Climate Change narratives.

 

🤣

[plissken]

11 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 I just might have more experience with how forums work than Joe Sixpack.

 

I dunno, I was running dial up BBS's in the 80's. That's all current forums are.

 

Did Wildcat BBS out the wazoo including usenet feeds.

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

I dunno, I was running dial up BBS's in the 80's. That's all current forums are.

 

Did Wildcat BBS out the wazoo including usenet feeds.

I didn't say I have more experience than you or everyone. Just Joe Sixpack. He doesn't have much.

[plissken]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I didn't say I have more experience than you or everyone. Just Joe Sixpack. He doesn't have much.

 

There's not much to it. Sorry, I'm not sure the point you are making. I'll steer clear of going in on an audio forum with Joe Sixpack though.

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

There's not much to it. Sorry, I'm not sure the point you are making. I'll steer clear of going in on an audio forum with Joe Sixpack though.

There's quite a bit to making a community work, knowing what to try, and understanding wen to hit the no button. All the challenges are about people, not technology.

[Samuel T Cogley]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

There's quite a bit to making a community work, knowing what to try, and understanding wen to hit the no button. All the challenges are about people, not technology.

 

Well, a majority of the forum seems to be cheering the new ghetto you created, so you should feel good about what you accomplished.

[kumakuma]

2 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Well, a majority of the forum seems to be cheering the new ghetto you created, so you should feel good about what you accomplished.

 

Yes, nothing like a common enemy to unite a community.

[Middy]

Double edge sword in here... free to express from technical, industrial experience but just an echo chamber  ...

You can still pull apart any product you like but no one to argue with? just back slapping. If thats not a fair reflection what percentage is proving a fact or just sticking it in and twisting. 

 

Marginalised dungeon..probably but i hope its a bastion of fact that tell me why a well made $5 amazon USB is fine, why the standard spec is fine, a better engineered is marketing BS or real quality engineering design.

Thats all fine and needed but i dont understand you dont get the application pushes people away. Its the perceived attitude not the facts. Or worse you do..

 

Do a full piece for Chris's A/S picks, pick the top 5 fallacies and do a full article in here, a searchable piece of hard information that can be referenced and stand up to scrutiny.  I see opportunity here, or a sterilised ASR slanging match to wind people up under the guise of knowledge sharing or debunking. 

People stopped caring and thats the real shame... now here we are....

We all lose out...

 

Good luck.. sincerely.

 

 

 

 

 

[Middy]

12 minutes ago, Middy said:

Deleted..

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tmtomh]

I'm most interested in the practical impact of this new subforum - how people who are not "partisans" in the objective-subjective debate will encounter and navigate content at Audiophile Style. I see two likely consequences of this new change, both of them negative, although in different ways.

 

For those who come here and click on the Forums main page, they see a list of subforums - and for someone who navigates this place in that way, everyone complaining about ghettoization and isolation of objectivists has a strong point. Are you new here and want to talk about music servers? Then you'll go to the Music Server subforum. DACs? DAC subforum. Networking? Software? Same deal.

 

If I understand the new rules, if someone reads a thread about ethernet cables in the Networking subforum, they will not encounter anyone saying that ethernet cables do not impact the sound of a stereo system - because any such comments disputing the sonic impact of different ethernet cables will be moved to the Objective-Fi subforum (or else flat-out deleted after a warning, I presume?).

 

In that scenario, how could any reasonable person not consider that a sequestration of certain views into an isolated area, while certain other views are allowed free reign in every other subforum?

 

For those who come here and click on the Active Topics filter, I presume they will see multiple, similar thread titles, one with subjectivist content and one with objectivist content. Sometimes the thread titles might make it clear which is which, and other times the titles will not make that clear. So people will click into threads having no idea that only certain perspectives will be on display in whichever one they happen to click on. Unless they notice the "Objective-Fi" or "Music Server" (or whatever) subforum tag at the top of the page, they will have no idea what subforum they're in and therefore will have no idea that they're only getting one portion of all the information and views available on the subject here. That seems, well, less than desirable if the idea is for this to be an information resource.

 

My view is that it is a mistake to structure this forum too much based on the perceived needs and preferences of highly active members who know each other and all the usual arguments. I believe it's important to think of the person who does not yet have a lot of information and who has not yet come to some basic conclusions about how they want to go about pursuing this hobby. From the perspective of that type of member/user, I feel this change is a step backward.

 

My view also is that there is an underlying difference in how subjectivists and objectivists perceive the purpose of discussion here. Subjectivists routinely talk about letting people enjoy their hobby, and say that when objectivists enter into disputes about issues, they do so in order to "be disagreeable," "tell others what to do," and "stir up controversy."

 

But this misses the crucial point that objectivists generally are not interested in simply sharing enthusiasms with like-minded enthusiasts. Despite what Chris has repeatedly said, I don't think objectivists want to be 'free to discuss issues without the subjectivist crazies coming in" - that "I want to be left alone to discuss with my fellow enthusiasts" idea is expressed far more often by subjectivists.  

By contrast, objectivists believe certain claims have evidence and others don't, and they believe in seeking knowledge by evaluating objective evidence - by "objective" I mean reliably repeatable by others, per the scientific method. And so the idea of not intervening in discussions about whether ethernet cables have a sound, or whether JRiver throws up a better soundstage than Roon, is anathema to objectivists. Talking only to others who already share their beliefs is IMHO of far more limited pleasure and utility to objectivists than it is to subjectivists.

 

And again, let's not forget that in most threads the most numerous group of readers is the people who don't post - so If I write that bit-identical digital files do in fact sound the same, I'm not trying to convince Alex. Instead, I'm trying to inform people who might be reading the thread that there is in fact zero evidence for Alex's claim, because I think it's important that folks know that.

 

Now, @The Computer Audiophile is under no obligation to allow objectivists to participate in that kind of activity if he feels it's detrimental to the forum or to what he wants this place to be. But if that kind of activity is to be ended via the sequestration of all objectivist argument in this subforum, then I can certainly understand @mansr's desire not to be a member here anymore.

 

Personally I'm always inclined to stay and keep discussing, but I would be lying if I didn't say that this change concerns me and has me rethinking the amount of time I spend here and the effort I put into the discussions.

[tmtomh]

@The Computer Audiophile - one question: Do I presume correctly that the Question and Answer subforum will be exempt from the practice of moving objectivist disagreement with subjectivist claims to the Objective-Fi subforum? Becuase of the Q&A subforum were to be subjected to that rule, that would cross a serious line IMHO.

[The Computer Audiophile]

37 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

@The Computer Audiophile - one question: Do I presume correctly that the Question and Answer subforum will be exempt from the practice of moving objectivist disagreement with subjectivist claims to the Objective-Fi subforum? Becuase of the Q&A subforum were to be subjected to that rule, that would cross a serious line IMHO.

We will have to be OK with a little gray. I’m sure you can imagine questions where only obj or sub answers are desired and questions where both are desired. The Q&A section is a bit different than the normal forum and we’ll figure it out as we go. Those who want to be part of the solution are encouraged to communicate with me and the OP. 

[Kimo]

Lots of subjective commentary to be found here already.  

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, Kimo said:

Lots of subjective commentary to be found here already.  

 

Yes, I see some rather mushy descriptions from objective leaning folks. What's next, cats and dogs living together!

[Kimo]

14 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Yes, I see some rather mushy descriptions from objective leaning folks. What's next, cats and dogs living together!

If nothing else, the jokes should be good.  The Objective folks seem to make the funniest comments, but that is just my opinion.

[Middy]

48 minutes ago, Kimo said:

If nothing else, the jokes should be good.  The Objective folks seem to make the funniest comments, but that is just my opinion.

 

Subjectively true..

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

It seems strange to me that so many objective people would not welcome a place dedicated to objective people. 😲

 

 

[Middy]

Objections in the DNA 😀

[BobSherman]

On 2/17/2020 at 4:30 PM, mansr said:

You keep saying that, yet your actions speak strongly to the contrary.

Any data to support this? 🙂