New Objective-Fi Sub-forum

[The Computer Audiophile]

Welcome to the new space solely for objective audio discussions. Subjective impression threads, anecdotal or experience only based comments are not allowed here. Have some wonderful news to share about a USB cable? Great, do it in another sub-forum here on Audiophile Style. 

 

Other than the logical uses of this sub-forum, it will also be used to house objective-based comments that seek to refute someone's personal experience  posted elsewhere. For example, if someone says that two bit identical files sound different, the new Objective-Fi sub-forum is the place to begin / continue the discussion unabated and away from appeals to authority or unprovable psychoacoustic comments. 

 

As always, feedback and questions are encouraged. I'm sure we have some kinks to work out, but we'll get there. This is audio, not brain surgery. Nobody is saving babies or killing puppies. 

 

Thanks for all the support of the AS community!

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, bobflood said:

I hope this works but I have my doubts. My personal opinion is that much of what you are trying to get people to post here is deliberately posted in the threads with the express intention of creating ill will and controversy. If it is posted here and can be ignored then it will not have the desired effect. One way to really damp this stuff down would be to eliminate anonymity. Make everyone post everywhere under their real name instead of hiding behind masks. I have always used my real name and if I say something here I take responsibility for it.

 

Good Luck,

 

Bob Flood 

 

When people post in the wrong spot, their comments can easily be moved to this sub-forum.

 

If people stop posting those comments because they'd rather cause ill will and controversy, then it's a win-win for all. 

 

Real identities are impossible to enforce and often have bad unintended consequences. People's employers have been contacted because of posts here on AS. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

52 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

This sounds like a penalty box. You must be a hockey fan?  ☺️

Hockey fan yes! Penalty box no. 

 

Protected space from the crazy audiophiles among us is far from a penalty box. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Generally, the crazies are the ones moved into a containment area where they can be isolated and monitored, not the sane population

 

There are 80% of the people in the middle and "crazies" at the poles. It goes both ways :~)

 

I'm not calling objectivists crazies. I do think it's a little crazy that people are up in arms with a separate space to discuss matters that most people in the original spaces didn't want to read anyway. In a USB listening thread, almost nobody wants to read anything from objectivists. Yet, when I provide a space for objectivists to refute anything said in the USB cable threads, the objectivists get mad. Makes no sense to me. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

18 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I really don't see a tiny sub-forum on AS becoming the place for purely objective discussions any time soon. To do that, you'll need to do much more for such folks to want to stay. Being pushed out to a reservation isn't helping that. The split seems to be a recognition that the larger audience of this site isn't interested in science, facts, or proper engineering discussions. Too bad.

 

Now you're really stretching. 

 

If objectivists are truly interested in discussing objective audio pursuits rather than anything else, then I see no reason why there's an issue with a special forum just for them. What's wrong with that?

 

On the other hand, if objectivists are solely interested in having a subjective audience for their words, then it ain't gonna work. that audience doesn't want to hear from them. 

 

I can only do so much and can't please everyone. If objectivists go to other sites that are more welcoming, I'm willing to bet they'll run into the same issues. If there are subjective conversations on those sites, they will raise hell and turn the site into 4chan. 

 

It's like people are threatening to leave and create what they created here somewhere else. It isn't a sustainable model. They will burn out every site that has obj and sub because they can't police themselves. So, I offer a space for strictly obj conversation and people get mad. I do't get it. 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

47 minutes ago, mansr said:

You keep saying that, yet your actions speak strongly to the contrary.

I call the 10 percent of people on each pole crazies. The 80 percent in the middle aren't crazies. Nothing wrong with crazies, but they don't make for a good community when one combines the complete 100% in one basket.

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

Why don't you save us all some grief and terminate our accounts right now. We all know that's where this is headed.

You're free to walk at any time, free to see through your self fulfilling prophecy, or free to be part of the solution. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

7 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

I agree and made a similar suggestion a number of hours ago. 

 

@The Computer Audiophile 

 

We’ve tried this for years but it doesn’t work. People can’t help themselves. 

 

 

 

23 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Hmmm @The Computer Audiophile ... I am sure you've carefully considered this. Are you changing your target audience for the site? I was originally drawn here because of the focus on "Computer Audiophile" which isn't as effectively covered in, say DIYAudio which is also far more technical. I have enjoyed the interplay between "objectivists" and :"subjectivists" though really those labels are themselves pretty funny. 

 

I mean, where are we supposed to discuss "Networks" ... is the current subforum intended only for subjective network sound? In the past, it was the OP which set the rules of the individual thread. What is wrong with that rule?

There’s no three alarm fire. All we are doing is separating discussions that only cause problems between two groups of people that don’t want to listen to each other. 

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, mansr said:

You'd love that, wouldn't you?

I’d love for a brilliant guy like you to be part of the solution. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Really? When?

 

I don't remember ever seeing threads flagged in this way.

It doesn't work because people are coming in threads in the middle, nobody reads the entire thing, and people just don't care what others thing often times. I'm being 100% serious. We've had this for a long time, but the die hards on both sides don't care. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

7 minutes ago, mansr said:

By sitting at the back of the bus like I'm supposed to?

You've proposed absolutely zero solutions that will help people enjoy this site more and enjoy their HiFi more. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Not surprised since you've shot down every alternative to your draconian solution that's been presented today... 

This is my livelihood. I've thought about every proposed solution for years. Nothing presented here today is even close to new. Many of these were even presented in the recent request for forum decorum. 

 

There are no silver bullets and everyone is an "expert" on forums. I always ask for feedback, but that doesn't mean it's alwasy good or workable feedback. People have to be OK with having their feedback shot down. If I listened to everyone, this place would be unrecognizable.

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

draconian solution

What's draconian about this solution?

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

If you don't like draconian substitute "insulting" or "biased"...

 

Rather than other adjectives can you offer an explanation of what’s draconian? Splitting discussions between two groups?

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

I think you really need to clarify your solution. Seems to me everyone is reading into it something different. It doesn’t help when you say that it’s a gray area.
 

Despite all the discussion I’m still not clear what you are going to do, what rules will be imposed, enforced, how and when. And while I can be easily confused, I don’t think of myself as particularly dense. 

If someone wants to start a thread about why the eR isn’t what it’s cracked up to be and show measurements, then the best place is in the Objective-Fi forum. It’ll be free from subjective nonsense and will allow people to really dig in technically. As it is now, that thread is nothing but derailed. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

You are not splitting discussions between two groups.

 

You are carving off posts from one group into a sub-forum to make the other group happy.

 

If you wanted to do this in a fair and unbiased way, there should be two identical sub-forums: one for objective only threads and another for subjective only threads.

Can you just take a breather and wait to see how it plays out?

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, DuckToller said:

@The Computer Audiophile
Chris,

as the forum is open now, I'd like to make usage of it in a positive, reviving way.

Could you please move that thread, that has already experienced a sudden death in January

to this subforum? 
It wasn't intended at all as a troll honey pot (even Alex used it likewise), but as a meta-review on the form of discussion that leads to the rift in our hobby/community, It might offer nothing new to the cable war veterans, but for other it might be a source to understand what this is all about.
It has a funny side, not evident to everyone I need to admit, deriving from the original comments, however it offers the chance for self-reflection on the standard discussion procedures of both, objectivists and subjectivists, trying to maintain their proper battlefield.
My personal objective had been a focus on common sense by analysing the mechanism that leads to escalation.
It is not about retrieving the better (winning?) arguments or locating the best push bottons on the other side. 
And It won't hurt anyone if the thread would continue in the sub-forum here, I would assume, instead being a dead monument for what happens when the pot was seemingly overcooking and people report 2 quickly without consideration? 
At this point I need to admit, that the timing was less than ideal, then, and I hadn't been fully up to date on the discussions that went through the forum towards the end of the year. 
However, imho there is no need to leave it in the closed/dead state it is, and you may allow me to have moderating rights to clean up off-topic comments???

With all respect, Tom
 

It has been moved. I hope it's objective.

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, esldude said:

There is reality.

 

There is fantasy. 

 

Fantasy is usually more fun to most people.  As it is rather unconstrained.

 

Fantasy also makes the most money. 

 

Reality is very, very interesting, but most people rather keep the dream as fantasy rather than work to make the dream real. 

 

Fantasy will make more money everytime.

 

So now we must separate the less economically enhancing viewpoints into their own little second class world so as not to pollute the revenue stream. 

 

Ironically, the reality of social business is fantasy is the reality that has to be catered to as it pays the most.  Unless...........your aims aren't economically driven. 

 

Should the sub-forum be re-labeled to reflect that? 

If this change was about money, then yes. But it isn’t. It’s about making an enjoyable hobby fun. Most people don’t bring a dietician with them to every restaurant so s/he can tell them how they are screwing their body. People like to enjoy audio without the audio police on their backs at every turn. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, esldude said:

Is this the "you didn't use a linear power supply" audio police or the "you haven't heard it so you can't comment upon it" audio police?

Maybe the "your system isn't good enough to hear it" audio police or one of the variants of the "you aren't a music lover" audio police.

 

Reminds me of a streaming comedy called the "Medical police".  Sort of bad timing with events in China too. 

 

 

The audio police on both sides are equally as guilty. I make no excuses for either. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, Ralf11 said:

 

you said this place was your livelihood - now say it is not about money

 

you need to make up your mind

My mind is made up. Stop wasting my time. The change isn’t about money and I used the example of it being my livelihood to show I just might have more experience with how forums work than Joe Sixpack. 
 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, lucretius said:

So where is the "New Fantasy-Fi Sub-forum"???

 

According to the extremists, it’s everywhere except the Objective-Fi sub-forum. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

I dunno, I was running dial up BBS's in the 80's. That's all current forums are.

 

Did Wildcat BBS out the wazoo including usenet feeds.

I didn't say I have more experience than you or everyone. Just Joe Sixpack. He doesn't have much.

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

There's not much to it. Sorry, I'm not sure the point you are making. I'll steer clear of going in on an audio forum with Joe Sixpack though.

There's quite a bit to making a community work, knowing what to try, and understanding wen to hit the no button. All the challenges are about people, not technology.

[The Computer Audiophile]

37 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

@The Computer Audiophile - one question: Do I presume correctly that the Question and Answer subforum will be exempt from the practice of moving objectivist disagreement with subjectivist claims to the Objective-Fi subforum? Becuase of the Q&A subforum were to be subjected to that rule, that would cross a serious line IMHO.

We will have to be OK with a little gray. I’m sure you can imagine questions where only obj or sub answers are desired and questions where both are desired. The Q&A section is a bit different than the normal forum and we’ll figure it out as we go. Those who want to be part of the solution are encouraged to communicate with me and the OP. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, Kimo said:

Lots of subjective commentary to be found here already.  

 

Yes, I see some rather mushy descriptions from objective leaning folks. What's next, cats and dogs living together!

[The Computer Audiophile]

49 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

It seems more like the subjective want to believe in fantasy and don't want to learn,  to justify their expenses, and want to be isolated from any sense of logic.  By isolating logic from subjectivity, the board caters more to unnecessary spending.

If that’s what you think, then so be it. No worries.