Article: Audiophile Style State of the Union

[kumakuma]

4 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

The example above of how this site took on MQA and how that won't happen anymore is complete baloney. There is still a place for that here, the problem is the people who it is for don't want to use it. The real question you need to ask is why do they not want to use it?

 

Mans has already left and I expect most of the other folks with technical chops to either leave soon or scale back their participation in this site.

 

Will you be stepping in to fill their shoes?

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, Confused said:

So when a thread starts to get derailed, perhaps we just need to send the culprits to the pub car park and let them sort things out, the rest of us can then stay in the public bar a continue a civilized conversation.

 

I struggle to believe that the fight takes place without an audience. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Mans has already left and I expect most of the other folks with technical chops to either leave soon or scale back their participation in this site.

 

Will you be stepping in to fill their shoes?

If you think there are only a handful of people on Earth capable of debunking MQA and offering technical information, you're incorrect.

[Confused]

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I struggle to believe that the fight takes place without an audience. 

There is an audience, of course, just no witnesses when the police arrive.

[kumakuma]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

If you think there are only a handful of people on Earth capable of debunking MQA and offering technical information, you're incorrect.

 

True but they will driving traffic to other sites in the future.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, kumakuma said:

 

True but they will driving traffic to other sites in the future.

I don't think the MQA discussion will fly at ASR. There is a monetary motive to push MQA over there. 

[charlesphoto]

I'm on vacation in Hawaii so haven't been following this too closely, but I do applaud Chris' decision on this. It's become an untenable situation with several members here (who have been on my ignore list for quite awhile). Problem is, though they seem to always have the answers in the name of science and measurements, rarely do they evoke any actual facts or technical help beyond just one line naysayers. In fact the chief of one liners, who just left in a pout, never even listed his audio gear, which could be anything or nothing, so therefore nothing for others to even see what his baseline personal experience in these matters is/was. It's more often than not a straw man syndrome imo.

 

The problem then is that it's only human to attack back when constantly challenged and humiliated by the 'it's all in your head' cliches. And that's not a good look either, for us supposed 'subjectivists'. I found myself going down that rabbit hole over on the Roon forum, where anything I said was then twisted around by the objectivists naysayers, to the point that those who have heard changes with networking gear were compared to anti-vaxxers and flat earth's, because you know, if you experience something without being able to fully explain it you're considered anti-science, which couldn't be further from the truth. Of course none of them could point to any actual science, measurements or theories why it shouldn't make a difference, just that 'science' says it shouldn't. It became a game of semantics on their part, which I consider the last resort of those who have nothing. I got bitchy and nasty and then woke up and realized what had happened and didn't like seeing myself that way so went back and deleted my posts. 

 

My main point was that science is good, and the reliance on science good, but science is just a creation of humans and is ever evolving as we figure out new places to look and new ways of measuring, and we just haven't got there with audio related networking yet, and may never get there in relation to the complexities of the human ear/brain interaction and human listening. But even that call for balance and evolving curiosity got flamed to no end. It can become really disheartening and a real waste of time to even bother relating any 'subjective' listening experiences. If I had a degree in EE and physics and a home lab with hundreds of thousands of dollars of testing gear, I might not have to rely on personal experience. But most consumers of hifi gear don't, so experienced listening is the most that most of us have to go on - on 'both sides of the aisle.' 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

I'm on vacation in Hawaii so haven't been following this too closely, but I do applaud Chris' decision on this. It's become an untenable situation with several members here (who have been on my ignore list for quite awhile). Problem is, though they seem to always have the answers in the name of science and measurements, rarely do they evoke any actual facts or technical help beyond just one line naysayers. In fact the chief of one liners, who just left in a pout, never even listed his audio gear, which could be anything or nothing, so therefore nothing for others to even see what his baseline personal experience in these matters is/was. It's more often than not a straw man syndrome imo.

 

The problem then is that it's only human to attack back when constantly challenged and humiliated by the 'it's all in your head' cliches. And that's not a good look either, for us supposed 'subjectivists'. I found myself going down that rabbit hole over on the Roon forum, where anything I said was then twisted around by the objectivists naysayers, to the point that those who have heard changes with networking gear were compared to anti-vaxxers and flat earth's, because you know, if you experience something without being able to fully explain it you're considered anti-science, which couldn't be further from the truth. Of course none of them could point to any actual science, measurements or theories why it shouldn't make a difference, just that 'science' says it shouldn't. It became a game of semantics on their part, which I consider the last resort of those who have nothing. I got bitchy and nasty and then woke up and realized what had happened and didn't like seeing myself that way so went back and deleted my posts. 

 

My main point was that science is good, and the reliance on science good, but science is just a creation of humans and is ever evolving as we figure out new places to look and new ways of measuring, and we just haven't got there yet with audio related networking yet, and may never get there in relation to the complexities of the human ear/brain interaction and human listening. But even that call for balance and evolving curiosity got flamed to no end. It can become really disheartening and a real waste of time to even bother relating any 'subjective' listening experiences. If I had a degree in EE and physics and a home lab with hundreds of thousands of dollars of testing gear, I might not have to rely on personal experience. But most consumers of hifi gear don't, so experienced listening is the most that most of us have to go on - on 'both sides of the aisle.' 

 

 

Enjoy your vacation Charles. 

[tapatrick]

18 minutes ago, Confused said:

Now for those not familiar with UK culture,

those were the days...

[Iving]

20 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

No doubt some will disagree, but MQA just got a huge boost from Audiophile Style.  Gone now is the venue that dared challenge the Old Guard of the Audiophile Elders.  Gone now is the irreverence that made Computer Audiophile Style what it is today.

 

I understand the business need to bow to the market.  But the "subjectivists" just won the lottery here.  As more time passes, it will become more and more indistinguishable from forums like Hoffman.

 

A truly sad day.

 

As an angel fearing to tread, I ask politely and respectfully [truly I do], why can there not be room here at AS for

(i) brave and intrepid souls who challenge industrial corruption [so to speak - I wasn't part of that Chapter and say nothing with strong assertion]

and

(ii) audiophiles who just want to enjoy their music and equipment without interruption of the kind they clearly haven't wanted or sought.

 

Indeed - I wouldn't see these groups or categories (i) and (ii) of AS members as - necessarily - mutually exclusive.

 

Indeed - I could envisage a vibrant community of un-pestered "subjectivists" a "legitimising" platform for those who want to take on causes since they would charge as cavalry from a more compelling ostensible "we" (i.e. one that included "customers").

 

"Win Win" trumps "I win you die" - Everybody comes to the party - The only ones banished are those who can't play nice enough.

[Ralf11]

3 hours ago, Jud said:

 

As other folks have said, it doesn't seem nearly so much a matter of objective and subjective as it does people who wish to score points versus people who wish to be helpful. Back a few years this all was new enough that I think more of us felt we needed help where we could find it, and had an obligation to provide it if we could. There was more of a sense of being in this together before we all got so damn swaggeringly confident in ourselves.

 

In case you haven't noticed, Chris is kind of at wit's end here, because y'all blew right through the past several ACMs (Asshole Coping Mechanisms). Someone even said "we can be assholes on occasion and you've allowed us to get away with it." News flash, Chris ain't your mommy. My wife works in an after school program with a couple of dozen kindergarteners through fifth graders, and that's plenty exhausting enough. Dealing with adults who want to act like grade schoolers is a little too much.

 

Just be helpful. That means meeting people where they are, not where you figure they ought to be.

 

 

I thought Sandy was removed from this thread - why are you addressing him?

[AudioDoctor]

23 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Mans has already left and I expect most of the other folks with technical chops to either leave soon or scale back their participation in this site.

 

Will you be stepping in to fill their shoes?

 

Nope, I sure won't. Thats not my area of knowledge. However if it were I see no reason why that is still not welcome here?

[kumakuma]

16 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I don't think the MQA discussion will fly at ASR. There is a monetary motive to push MQA over there. 

 

MQA is done. I was thinking of the future.

[joelha]

In Chris' defense and for the sake of clarity, this is not about objectivism and subjectivism.

 

This is about civility. I'll bet big money Chris couldn't care less who makes the comment.

 

He cares far more about the civility of the comment.

 

I agree with him 100% and applaud his courage for making this move, knowing the response he'll get from some quarters and for accepting the possibly temporary loss of traffic his site will experience as well.

 

If the choice is between civility and technical knowledge, I'll take the civility and try to get my knowledge elsewhere.

 

Joel

 

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

MQA is done. I was thinking of the future.

 

With other topics it isn't much different over there. If there's a financial interest, it won't be measured and compared to the least expensive options and talked about the same way as products from manufacturers that aren't liked. It's really all about using the term science as a mask, cherry picking the clap traps, and protecting one's own business. Fine with me, but I'm not willingly blind to it.

[kumakuma]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

With other topics it isn't much different over there. If there's a financial interest, it won't be measured and compared to the least expensive options and talked about the same way as products from manufacturers that aren't liked. It's really all about using the term science as a mask, cherry picking the clap traps, and protecting one's own business. Fine with me, but I'm not willingly blind to it.

 

You seem to assume that the refugees are going to Amir's place. 

[Samuel T Cogley]

25 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

If you think there are only a handful of people on Earth capable of debunking MQA and offering technical information, you're incorrect.

 

Sure, OK.  But I don't think your recent actions will be seen as rolling out the red carpet for them.  This is a win for MQA Chris.  I know it seems like I'm trolling but based on the history of MQA here, a strong case could be made that you've handed a huge win to MQA by raising up the "subjectivists" above everyone else.

 

You mark my works, Quint and his ilk we be back in spades, reveling in their "win".

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

11 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

I thought Sandy was removed from this thread - why are you addressing him?

I thought you were gone. Why are you still here? 

 

Nobody has been banned from the comment section of an article. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

You seem to assume that the refugees are going to Amir's place. 

 

I'm going by what they've said. 

 

I they are looking for a place that allows them to be rude and piss into a punch bowl, I don't know where they'll find it. 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Sure, OK.  But I don't think your recent actions will be seen as rolling out the red carpet for them.  This is a win for MQA Chris.  I know it seems like I'm trolling but based on the history of MQA here, a strong case could be made that you've handed a huge win to MQA by raising up the "subjectivists" above everyone else.

 

You mark my works, Quint and his ilk we be back in spades, reveling in their "win".

 

 

Quint can say whatever he wants. I don't care if he declares victory. 

 

Suggesting that only objectivists can "fight" MQA isn't a logical argument. The facts have been out for years. It's all about other stuff now. MQA doesn't care about the facts.  

 

 

[pkane2001]

11 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

With other topics it isn't much different over there. If there's a financial interest, it won't be measured and compared to the least expensive options and talked about the same way as products from manufacturers that aren't liked. It's really all about using the term science as a mask, cherry picking the clap traps, and protecting one's own business. Fine with me, but I'm not willingly blind to it.

 

Evidence. please? As far as I know, Amir doesn't sell to the audiophile community. What is it that he needs to protect for his own business which is generally high-end home theater, and integrated security installations?

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Evidence. please? As far as I know, Amir doesn't sell to the audiophile community. What is it that he needs to protect for his own business which is generally high-end home theater, and integrated security installations?

 

There is plenty of crossover in high end home theater and audiophile products. I've been to countless installations and seen it in a majority of cases. 

 

Because he has access to everything he sells, and more, it should be pretty easy to march that stuff out to the test bench and compare it to the new holy grail of the minute. He constantly rails against high end mfgs, but of course none of them who are his venders and he would never measure his gear and tell a customer to stop buying the expensive stuff because the cheap stuff is just as good. Yet, he does this all day long when it's someone else's business thats effected. 

[Samuel T Cogley]

10 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Suggesting that only objectivists can "fight" MQA isn't a logical argument. The facts have been out for years. It's all about other stuff now. MQA doesn't care about the facts.

 

I completely understand the spin you're putting on the de facto purge.  But I'm talking about the actual history of MQA dissent that started on this very forum, not some non sequitur hypothetical. 

[pkane2001]

6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

There is plenty of crossover in high end home theater and audiophile products. I've been to countless installations and seen it in a majority of cases. 

 

Because he has access to everything he sells, and more, it should be pretty easy to march that stuff out to the test bench and compare it to the new holy grail of the minute. He constantly rails against high end mfgs, but of course none of them who are his venders and he would never measure his gear and tell a customer to stop buying the expensive stuff because the cheap stuff is just as good. Yet, he does this all day long when it's someone else's business thats effected. 

 

So, no evidence, just a suspicion of impropriety? Can you give just a few brand names of what he uses in his business that he refuses to measure? Because I'm pretty sure he measured some expensive digital processors he claims he uses, and they did not measure well.

 

[Jud]

35 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

I thought Sandy was removed from this thread - why are you addressing him?

Ah, ever the scamp. 😀

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

So, no evidence, just a suspicion of impropriety? Can you give just a few brand names of what he uses in his business that he refuses to measure? Because I'm pretty sure he measured some expensive digital processors he claims he uses for his business, and they did not measure well.

 

I've been down this path countless times, naming brands etc... not going down it again for you to ignore the evidence. Plus, you don't seem to want the information so I will not force it down your throat.