Article: Audiophile Style State of the Union

[pkane2001]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Clarification is always good. 

 

In your specific example, the information you provided was great. There was no snark, combativeness, imposition, confrontation, or belittling. You weren't seeking to save someone from themself or seeking to just be a disrupter. The OP clearly appreciated your answer as well. 

 

Sounds to me like you are deciding on what belongs in which forum based primarily on tone, Chris. If Mans' answer had no snark then it's ok for the general forum, but if not, then it belongs in the Objective one, is that right?

 

Let's just rename the Objective-Fi forum to "Time-out for misbehaving children".  Seems more descriptive. And yes, that was snark

[pkane2001]

10 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Thanks for the feedback. I'll take your question as more of a comment expressing your distaste and disagreement with this move. I'd never implement such a system as described. 

 

 

 

That's not it. I was following up on your answer to Mans, and it made little sense to me in the context of what you described. Sorry if I tried to use some humor to illustrate the point.

 

To restate: is it OK to have objectively-sourced information posted in the subjective area of the forum? Ever? Or can it be done but only without snark? Or only if the subjective audience doesn't mind the answer? And is it the whole audience, at least 10 readers, or any one who complains that triggers the move to Objective-Fi? When and how is the decision made that an answer doesn't qualify for the subjective part of the forum?

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, Jim Sylva said:

When is being snarky ever necessary?

 

It's not a necessity, but an indulgence

 

[pkane2001]

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi Paul, this is where people are going to have to be comfortable with a little gray in their lives. Nothing is black and white. 

 

In a USB cable listening experience thread, even if someone was totally nice about it, the place isn't right to "show" people why they can't be hearing what they're reporting. 

 

Hi Chris,

 

That's makes sense, but I'm still missing something. How is this any different than what was already in place?

 

It was already the case that the owner of the thread could declare it as subjective-only. And, if someone misbehaved on such a thread, the owner could remove their posts. Others could complain to you and also get these posts moved/removed.

 

With the change, I'm still unclear as to what and where I can post, since it is, as you say, a gray area. And if I have to worry about offending someone's sensibilities by sharing my knowledge and experience (without snark) then I'd rather go elsewhere. I can always count on at least one person to disagree with everything I post, even though he's on my ignore list

 

[pkane2001]

12 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You are free to post contrary information in a thread of your own choosing in the Objective-Fi sub-forum

 

Still trying to understand. So no contrary objective information is allowed in the rest of the forum? Or is it? 

[pkane2001]

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

It’s going to take some common sense and communication between those who really want to help make it work. If you aren’t up for it, I understand. 

 

Don't know what this means, but it doesn't appear to be an answer to a simple, direct yes/no question. Gray area, I guess? 

[pkane2001]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You’re looking for a mythical black & white world where none exists. Policing is easy, in a police state. This isn’t one. Things can be murky. However, I believe 95% of people who are here to enjoy audio will have no problem working through the adjustment. 

 

I was just looking for an answer, since this is your site and your announced policy change. Gray it is, then.

[pkane2001]

4 hours ago, firedog said:

That's one point of view and unfortunately for you, not the only one. Some people don't call it HiFi, they call it "audiophilia", which means something else. Lots of people in the hobby don't view it as you do. Deal with it.
They aren't "wrong", they have a different goal than you.

 

They are wrong because they want to silence a difference of opinion not because their opinion or goal is different.

[pkane2001]

2 hours ago, marce said:

I'd go one further, get all their personal details and start a class action case for libellous content designed to upset my hard held beliefs!

 

Don't give them any ideas!

 

[pkane2001]

6 minutes ago, firedog said:

No, they don't want to silence you. They just want to be able to have a discussion without being interrupted and told how wrong they are.

Outside of the forum do you just walk up to other people having a conversation, interrupt, and tell them they are wrong?

Why not? Don't you want to expose them to the truth and prevent them from believing in "unscientific" ideas? 

 

I'm sure "they" are perfectly happy for you discuss your ideas in objectivist or other threads designed to be all inclusive, such as a  "what do you guys think about...." thread.

 

I don't walk up to anyone here or on the street to force my opinion on them. When I think I have an answer or something to contribute, based on experience or something I learned or discovered through study, I want to be able to share it. I get shouted down here, just like many others. Lately, Chris has been very much participating in this process, and this latest change turns it into an enforceable rule.

 

Sorry, I'm not for building ghettos and safe sanctuaries. I'm for free exchange of opinion. I prefer to hear opinions other than my own, because that's how I learn. I guess CA/AS is no longer the place for open discussion. Sad but true.

[pkane2001]

27 minutes ago, firedog said:

You may think that's what you are doing, and that may be your intent, but it isn't what you are actually doing.

If the OT is "USB Cable Comparisons" and you join in to tell them the whole discussion is baseless and anti-scientific and is a waste of time b/c USB cables can't sound different, you aren't actually contributing, or sharing, or helping them. You are simply interrupting their conversation and pushing it to what they see as off topic and insulting.

 

Such a topic isn't a "newbie" topic and is almost always populated by experienced hobbyists who are paying not insignificant amounts for their setup and all their tweaks you find pointless. Sorry, but it's incredibly arrogant of you to think that with your "objectivist" posts at such a thread your "contributing to their knowledge from your study and experience":
Seriously, why would you assume such people aren't already aware of your arguments? They've also studied and have experience. They are aware of your arguments and have started a thread purposely designed NOT to discuss your position, which they've already considered and rejected. So when you enter such a thread, you ARE essentially just "walking up and forcing your opinion" on them. 

 

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. But it is apparently just the reason that Chris' new rules need to be implemented, as apparently some people have trouble making this distinction. 

 

And again, if it's a newbie thread or a thread where the OT is obviously open ended, then please contribute from your ideas and study. 

 

Firedog, I'm not your 'strawman' objectivist, so stop painting me as one. I don't jump in to a thread to be arrogant or to say everyone else is wrong. When I join a USB cable comparisons thread, I actually contribute from my own experience. I've measured, built, and listened to many USB cables, using multiple DACs and multiple source formats, headphones, speakers. So you are telling me I should stop posting because this ruins the 'high' for others?  Because I approach the evaluation of these things methodically, and try to be rational in my approach?

 

Here are some examples of my contributions on USB cable related threads. I've stayed out of these more recently. There are others.

 

 

[pkane2001]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

And so, no I'm not tellingyou you should stop posting. I specifically said you should post in the appropriate threads. You didn't see that?

 

'Appropriate threads' is the thing that Chris has yet to define, and I asked repeatedly. According to him, it's a 'gray area', so my posts are subject to removal from any thread (other than in Objective Fi, I assume), with no way for me to judge ahead of time if I'm going to be booted or tolerated, and what logic will be used to make this decision. That's what I have a problem with.

[pkane2001]

3 minutes ago, Jim Sylva said:

Free exchange of opinion and genuine open discussion can only happen in an atmosphere of respect and civility. Not sad, but true.

 

I don't think I've disrespected or attacked anyone, although I've been attacked many times in the past. I can't help it if rational thinking and objective, experimental approach are considered a personal attack by others. Civility must go both ways, and current winds seem to be mightily one-sided to me. Maybe, like @firedog said, I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. We'll see.

[pkane2001]

11 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

With other topics it isn't much different over there. If there's a financial interest, it won't be measured and compared to the least expensive options and talked about the same way as products from manufacturers that aren't liked. It's really all about using the term science as a mask, cherry picking the clap traps, and protecting one's own business. Fine with me, but I'm not willingly blind to it.

 

Evidence. please? As far as I know, Amir doesn't sell to the audiophile community. What is it that he needs to protect for his own business which is generally high-end home theater, and integrated security installations?

 

[pkane2001]

6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

There is plenty of crossover in high end home theater and audiophile products. I've been to countless installations and seen it in a majority of cases. 

 

Because he has access to everything he sells, and more, it should be pretty easy to march that stuff out to the test bench and compare it to the new holy grail of the minute. He constantly rails against high end mfgs, but of course none of them who are his venders and he would never measure his gear and tell a customer to stop buying the expensive stuff because the cheap stuff is just as good. Yet, he does this all day long when it's someone else's business thats effected. 

 

So, no evidence, just a suspicion of impropriety? Can you give just a few brand names of what he uses in his business that he refuses to measure? Because I'm pretty sure he measured some expensive digital processors he claims he uses, and they did not measure well.

 

[pkane2001]

21 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I've been down this path countless times, naming brands etc... not going down it again for you to ignore the evidence. Plus, you don't seem to want the information so I will not force it down your throat.

 

I do want the information. I've yet to see it. Maybe you can give me a link to where you shared it before. Just did a quick search of your posts mentioning Amir. Only one reference to a brand that you claim Amir will not measure... which he measured earlier that same year, before you even posted the accusation. 

 

Should I be asking this question in the Objective Fi forum to get actual evidence?

 

[pkane2001]

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

Dream on Dennis. If you don't like it here, leave. 

 

You are really on a roll, Chris. Pretty soon you will not need the Objectify forum with nobody left to post there. Problem solved, I guess.

[pkane2001]

3 minutes ago, SJK said:

I give up.  I struggled through pages and pages of sophomoric ramblings about subjective and objective foolishness that I completely failed to discover how and why mansr was so egregiously hurt that he had no other option than to move on. 
 

I could use a reddit tl/dr over here. Throw a brother a bone, people. Please don’t tell me this is all about USB cables......

 

Here you go. A good description, although it doesn't cover all the prequel details to this latest episode. Such as being treated as second-tier citizens, forced to post to a sub-forum or your posts will be moved there, being attacked constantly by the subjectivist majority in order to make you shut up,  the tacit agreement that AS is now a subjectivists-run forum and your opinion doesn't count, and much more that's not visible from the surface:

 

 

[pkane2001]

2 hours ago, One and a half said:

With the snarks departures

Chris forced people out and banned a number for disagreeing. Mansr was banned. He said that he didn’t ask to be removed. A bit trigger happy, aren’t you @The Computer Audiophile?
 

Must be that gray area that lets you make up the rules as you go. Hey, as others have said, this is your site, but it doesn’t make it right.

I fully expect to be banned shortly.

[pkane2001]

13 minutes ago, Iving said:

 

It's just a point of view, but I don't think this is fair - I mean the "trigger happy" bit. As I see things the reverse is true. Things have been chaotic for a while and the bubble had to burst (like it does in any human scenario when tensions are rising). I imagine many might think that CC let the bubble expand too far.

 

Honestly I wish we could all just get along. Call me an idealist (but not anything else please). My recent posts demonstrate that if we had been a bit sharper - as a crowd of people *WITH SOMETHING IN COMMON* - we could have accommodated "objective" perspectives (without undue snark) and happy unfettered audiophiles - all scratching each other's backs in one happy bathtub.

 

Think what a platform that could have been for causes. A platform of ostensible unity.

 

It's the impolite imposition of personal will on others that's the root cause of all human problems according to one point of view. We only have to think about our personal lives and our personal histories (whether we have been at fault or whether we have been treated poorly). From my own perspective, things wouldn't have gotten anywhere near as bad as they did without the toxic influence of just one or two truly deadbeat ringleaders. OK maybe even just one.

 

Nothing wrong with a bit of fun, irony, teasing - whatever. We all know how to build relationships with those assets. That's not what happened here. Gotta feel for Chris. It's hardly his fault.

 

I respect your point of view. And I agree that things could be much better if everyone was trying a bit harder to get along.

 

I've no problem with trying to address this and have suggested multiple ways. Chris ignored or declined all reasonable suggestions, claiming they've been tried or he doesn't think they'll work. Instead, he went for the one solution designed to divide the community even further. The result is pretty obvious, and may be achieving the peace that Chris wants, but not without cost. That cost being interesting conversations, difference of opinion, technical discussions of why and how things might work, and contribution of some very expert members. Despite all the heat being generated on the old CA, I found the discussions very illuminating. I often learned from both sides of the discussion, sometimes jumping in and being beat up by one or both  Maybe it's just my imagination, but things have gone down hill since this became AS.

 

Achieving harmony at the cost of diversity is what I really struggle with, as did others who have left, been forced out or outright banned.

 

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You’re making up your own reality. 
 

Mans published his last post here. He even said it. Should make no difference to those who’ve been banned like this because they’ve all previously left. Timeline is important. Please use facts. 

 

I didn't make this up, this came from Mans directly. I assume he knows better if he wanted to close his account or not. 

[pkane2001]

13 minutes ago, 4est said:

Perhaps if the objective only crowd saw the sub forum as not the back of the bus, but as an engineer's woo woo free skunk works or haven it would be more palatable?

 

I think this would require quite a bit of imagination that we, engineers, lack

 

[pkane2001]

2 minutes ago, Iving said:

 

I don't think the CA/AS switch caused anything. What's in a name. It's the "community" dynamic that was at work. All our different energies.

 

A particular member thought himself something of a psychologist. Well I'll tell you for nothing (as someone very probably more qualified) that some people LOVE to escalate drama until there's a relationship explosion. There's an *unhealthy* way to manage that - which is to react and participate in the escalation of the drama. We ALL know that that's what "Don't feed the trolls" is all about. There are only two *healthy* ways to manage a difficult person. One - the easy one - is to disengage. The other - which takes enviable maturity - is to stay in the situation (as we feel compelled to do in our families even when things feel dreadful) exercising only relentless courtesy. CC has done that in spades. He's a better man than me.

 

I'm relatively new around here. But I can see there have been explosions here before (after arguably more questionable behaviour) - and the healing that follows in the wake of them. So let's watch this space with hope.

 

Most of us are good guys really. CC is an exceptionally measured man imho.

 

I'm sure everyone means well. All I can do is share how this change affects me and some others, whose opinion and contribution I value. Chris makes the rules, so that's all I can do.

 

[pkane2001]

11 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Oh believe me, he wants his account closed. Please ask him to share his latest PMs to me with you. 

 

Why don't you share it. Mans says he can't get to his PMs since the account has been terminated. He's ok with you doing so.

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Mans said in public that he published his last post, asked me via PM to delete all his posts, and insisted I delete them or he’d get a court order to have them blocked in Europe. 

To me, that means he wants all ties to AS severed and it made me want to severe all ties and solidify that he would follow through with his word of it being his final post. Leaving the account open doesn’t allow us to remove traces of his personal identifying information and leaves us exposed to him participating in other ways that I don’t want him participating (votes, PMs). 
 

Given that the UK isn’t in the EU, I’m unsure how his threatened ban would work, but I still don’t believe AS is required to follow all laws globally (from GDPR to Sharia Law). 
 

I offered to anonymize his content, but not to delete it. This paragraph sums up the AS point of view with respect to deleting content. 
 

Not my text below:

 

“Earlier this year, the Internet lawyer Arnoud Engelfriet wrote a blog post about exactly this topic. As it is written in Dutch, I will summarize it here:

 

As you also said, deleting posts breaks the flow of the archived conversation and it makes your archive incomplete. This is a problem for the freedom of expression and information. But Art. 17(3) GDPR includes an exception to the right of erasure for this situation. So posts do not need to be deleted.
 

However, profiles are not included in this exception. So they must be removed, but they can be pseudonymized. For example replace the username with user89432, and remove all details from the profile.

 

If other posts contain the nick of the author of an anonymized post, that is considered an journalistic, academic artistic or literary expression, so Art. 85 GDPR would apply, so the right of erasure does not apply to that.

Bottom line: you only have to pseudonymize the account, if that person wants to be removed from the forum.”

 

 

Thanks, that confirms what I heard from Mans. He asked for his posts to be deleted. He said to me and to others prior to all of this, that he wasn't going to leave until that was completed. Your exchange seems to support that he didn't ask to have his account closed, you just assumed that he wanted it. I believe he wants it reinstated for now, but this is between you and Mans to hash out. You have his private emails, follow-up with him please.