Popular Post Iving Posted February 17, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 17, 2020 28 minutes ago, mansr said: Is all rational thought now forbidden outside the "reservation"? It's implicit in this remark that someone who enjoys their music and their equipment "subjectively" - and wants to do that collegiately with other similar-minded audiophiles free of unsolicited challenge - is incapable of "rational thought". That's both snark and absurd. You are far too intelligent to avoid appreciating what I'm saying. daverich4, Account Closed, The Computer Audiophile and 6 others 6 2 1 Link to comment
Iving Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 16 minutes ago, Allan F said: Unfortunately, intelligence and empathy are not necessarily related. Just look to Washington, DC, if you need any proof. Perhaps ... but they are positively and highly correlated in my case. And that's all I care about 🙃. Link to comment
Popular Post Iving Posted February 17, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, Allan F said: I most certainly agree that, ideally, they should be. Moreover, without much effort, they can be. Agreed! It's most satisfying when we bring out the best in each other 🥳 The Computer Audiophile and tapatrick 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Iving Posted February 17, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 17, 2020 Just now, kumakuma said: The problem isn't that we are objectivists or subjectivists but that we can be assholes on occasion and you've allowed us to get away with it. never say die Ben-M and Sonic77 2 Link to comment
Iving Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Don't you think it's obvious in most cases? Serious question. It's "obvious" in a different way to different people. For some it's an "obvious" invitation to contribute constructively. Or to challenge conspiratorially. Both of which are socially and intellectually conducive. To others it's an "obvious" opportunity to wind people up. So yes it's obvious to just about all of us. And a pity that "conducive" motives need to be protected, such that everyone can have a good shot at enjoying themselves. The Computer Audiophile 1 Link to comment
Iving Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 20 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: To restate: is it OK to have objectively-sourced information posted in the subjective area of the forum? Ever? Or can it be done but only without snark? Or only if the subjective audience doesn't mind the answer? And is it the whole audience, at least 10 readers, or any one who complains that triggers the move to Objective-Fi? When and how is the decision made that an answer doesn't qualify for the subjective part of the forum? These seem fair questions to me. I am not any authority here. But my suggestion would be to imagine being at the dinner table with your in-laws - knowing CC is standing by as doorman/bouncer. Think of the presence of the in-laws not so much a stifle, but an opportunity to *really* impress. Link to comment
Iving Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Real censorship is you guys continuing to drive people away until there's nobody left. Nobody talking about HiFi because of your crusade. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^+++++++++++++++++++++++++++10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 AudioDoctor 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Iving Posted February 18, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 18, 2020 9 minutes ago, marce said: provide proof, explanations and fight science with science, because music reproduction is science... Making and creating music is art, capturing, recording and playback is engineering. 11 minutes ago, marce said: No claim however daft it is can be questioned, and thus the manufacturers get richer.... There is no sound (sic) basis for my having - against my will - to tolerate unsolicited challenges from you or anybody else to provide "proof" for my musical enjoyment, to be cajoled to "fight science with science" [lol] when all I want is pleasant hobby-conversation. Nor to be coerced to contemplate "engineering" when I am in bliss. (After all, I contrived all my own system-engineering for the sake of that uncontaminated bliss reward.) I am scientifically trained. I taught postgraduate research over many years. Eventually I tutored my masters, providing statistical support for their own research. [omg now I sound like Amir.] That's not what I come here for - to justify myself - or argue the toss with whomsoever wants to satisfy themselves with being "right" about what to me is trivial. I come here to enjoy myself, and don't want to be diverted from my happiness by a Wiki-hinged Scientism agenda. There is a very serious lack of appreciation of psychology, philosophy and the hitherto-unknown in the "objectivist" approach I see here. No intellectual humility whatsoever (I mean in relation to the phantom prospect that the physical or material sciences hold all the answers with you guys as unwavering champions of that cause). I dare say I would be very much interested in serious debates around engineering and music psychology - but it is absolutely clear that a small number of objectivist-crusaders arm themselves with mockery at the drop of a hat and THAT IS THEIR REAL AGENDA. I have some sympathy with the problem of profiteering in the music industry, but I am not willing to pay the price for your satisfaction in that regard. One and a half, sandyk, daverich4 and 8 others 5 2 4 Link to comment
Iving Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 1 minute ago, marce said: Sorry, could you be a bit more concise in you reply, to many words to little content. Thanks🙂 So I presume you are saying that however silly a claim is; it CANNOT be questioned because it may ruin your enjoyment! well there you go - that's what we have here Link to comment
Iving Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, marce said: its down to not upsetting beliefs or challenging them if incorrect You are obsessed - ANTISOCIALLY - with controlling the "beliefs" of others - as here: Link to comment
Popular Post Iving Posted February 18, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 18, 2020 1 minute ago, firedog said: I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. But it is apparently just the reason that Chris' new rules need to be implemented, as apparently some people have trouble making this distinction. ^ This encapsulates the present problem. 4est and Teresa 2 Link to comment
Iving Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 39 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Marce, you just don’t understand how things work. 7 minutes ago, marce said: The funny thing is in all this, is that at the end of the day, Designing electronics and speakers to replay music is objective/engineering based, especially the digital side of things. Anyone remember the old adage, hi-fi amplifier should be like a “bit of wire with gain”. Nothing added/nothing subtracted for the signal in to the signal out. @marce That's not (for present purposes) "how things work"! Link to comment
Iving Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 4 minutes ago, kumakuma said: You guys won. You've convinced Chris to drive out the undesirables in order to create your nice warm place where everyone is a friend, no opinions are challenged, and nothing of any lasting value to anyone is created. Well - I wouldn't agree with the last bit. Link to comment
Iving Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, kumakuma said: The reality is that the folks that you all consider the most disruptive are also the ones with the most technical skills and knowledge. Once Chris has driven these folks off he technical core of this place will be gone and what will be left? A bunch of guys sitting around sharing stories about which ethernet cable sounds the best. In other words, a shell of what this place was and could still be. It appears that the high water mark of this place will be the MQA vaporware thread. I ask others to reflect on what happened in that thread. Was the real value that that thread provided created through making this is a "fun place" or by breaking a few (dozen) eggs and pissing more than a few people off? baby and bath water Link to comment
Iving Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Just now, Jim Sylva said: Free exchange of opinion and genuine open discussion can only happen in an atmosphere of respect and civility. Not sad, but true. Never a truer word Link to comment
Popular Post Iving Posted February 18, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 18, 2020 20 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said: No doubt some will disagree, but MQA just got a huge boost from Audiophile Style. Gone now is the venue that dared challenge the Old Guard of the Audiophile Elders. Gone now is the irreverence that made Computer Audiophile Style what it is today. I understand the business need to bow to the market. But the "subjectivists" just won the lottery here. As more time passes, it will become more and more indistinguishable from forums like Hoffman. A truly sad day. As an angel fearing to tread, I ask politely and respectfully [truly I do], why can there not be room here at AS for (i) brave and intrepid souls who challenge industrial corruption [so to speak - I wasn't part of that Chapter and say nothing with strong assertion] and (ii) audiophiles who just want to enjoy their music and equipment without interruption of the kind they clearly haven't wanted or sought. Indeed - I wouldn't see these groups or categories (i) and (ii) of AS members as - necessarily - mutually exclusive. Indeed - I could envisage a vibrant community of un-pestered "subjectivists" a "legitimising" platform for those who want to take on causes since they would charge as cavalry from a more compelling ostensible "we" (i.e. one that included "customers"). "Win Win" trumps "I win you die" - Everybody comes to the party - The only ones banished are those who can't play nice enough. tapatrick, The Computer Audiophile and Bill Brown 3 Link to comment
Iving Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 20 minutes ago, austinpop said: So true. Chris has given these guys ample opportunities to mend their ways. After that big Forum Guidelines thread, there were a few days of good behavior, and then it was back to the snark. A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do. yes - remarkable patience, proportionality and fortitude in CC imho The Computer Audiophile 1 Link to comment
Iving Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 let's not beatify any of the dearly departed Link to comment
Iving Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 1 minute ago, esldude said: The real danger probably isn't from a zombie MQA. It is that something like it will come along in the future. And Chris has arranged for the forum to have shall we say, no resistance to such a thing in the future. I can understand this - but it implicates AS as EITHER an effective "resistance" node OR a place where Audiophiles can be Audiophiles. If CC was effectively forced to choose then maybe that's what we're seeing. [That said I think I have seen CC say that he considers no-one indispensable in the "resistance" business. I don't have a view about that since I am not here for that purpose primarily.] Link to comment
Iving Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Just now, esldude said: I don't see it as an EITHER/OR choice. I think you can have both. You can also choose not to have both. Looks like a choice has been made even if that choice was unintentional. You've missed the "take home" message of the day. (And the "Audiophiles can be Audiophiles" part of my post.) tmtomh 1 Link to comment
Iving Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 6 minutes ago, esldude said: I don't see it as an EITHER/OR choice. I think you can have both. I made the same point here: esldude 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Iving Posted February 19, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 19, 2020 31 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: Chris forced people out and banned a number for disagreeing. Mansr was banned. He said that he didn’t ask to be removed. A bit trigger happy, aren’t you @The Computer Audiophile? Must be that gray area that lets you make up the rules as you go. Hey, as others have said, this is your site, but it doesn’t make it right. I fully expect to be banned shortly. It's just a point of view, but I don't think this is fair - I mean the "trigger happy" bit. As I see things the reverse is true. Things have been chaotic for a while and the bubble had to burst (like it does in any human scenario when tensions are rising). I imagine many might think that CC let the bubble expand too far. Honestly I wish we could all just get along. Call me an idealist (but not anything else please). My recent posts demonstrate that if we had been a bit sharper - as a crowd of people *WITH SOMETHING IN COMMON* - we could have accommodated "objective" perspectives (without undue snark) and happy unfettered audiophiles - all scratching each other's backs in one happy bathtub. Think what a platform that could have been for causes. A platform of ostensible unity. It's the impolite imposition of personal will on others that's the root cause of all human problems according to one point of view. We only have to think about our personal lives and our personal histories (whether we have been at fault or whether we have been treated poorly). From my own perspective, things wouldn't have gotten anywhere near as bad as they did without the toxic influence of just one or two truly deadbeat ringleaders. OK maybe even just one. Nothing wrong with a bit of fun, irony, teasing - whatever. We all know how to build relationships with those assets. That's not what happened here. Gotta feel for Chris. It's hardly his fault. Bill Brown, Summit, Teresa and 6 others 4 3 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Iving Posted February 19, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 19, 2020 7 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: I respect your point of view. And I agree that things could be much better if everyone was trying a bit harder to get along. I've no problem with trying to address this and have suggested multiple ways. Chris ignored or declined all reasonable suggestions, claiming they've been tried or he doesn't think they'll work. Instead, he went for the one solution designed to divide the community even further. The result is pretty obvious, and may be achieving the peace that Chris wants, but not without cost. That cost being interesting conversations, difference of opinion, technical discussions of why and how things might work, and contribution of some very expert members. Despite all the heat being generated on the old CA, I found the discussions very illuminating. I often learned from both sides of the discussion, sometimes jumping in and being beat up by one or both Maybe it's just my imagination, but things have gone down hill since this became AS. Achieving harmony at the cost of diversity is what I really struggle with, as did others who have left, been forced out or outright banned. I don't think the CA/AS switch caused anything. What's in a name. It's the "community" dynamic that was at work. All our different energies. A particular member thought himself something of a psychologist. Well I'll tell you for nothing (as someone very probably more qualified) that some people LOVE to escalate drama until there's a relationship explosion. There's an *unhealthy* way to manage that - which is to react and participate in the escalation of the drama. We ALL know that that's what "Don't feed the trolls" is all about. There are only two *healthy* ways to manage a difficult person. One - the easy one - is to disengage. The other - which takes enviable maturity - is to stay in the situation (as we feel compelled to do in our families even when things feel dreadful) exercising only relentless courtesy. CC has done that in spades. He's a better man than me. I'm relatively new around here. But I can see there have been explosions here before (after arguably more questionable behaviour) - and the healing that follows in the wake of them. So let's watch this space with hope. Most of us are good guys really. CC is an exceptionally measured man imho. Teresa, Bill Brown and The Computer Audiophile 1 1 1 Link to comment
Iving Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 1 hour ago, tapatrick said: I tried visiting the quoted example of ASR as a source of info and quickly found it an appalling place. Me too. I didn't stay long. It is appalling. Ribaldry is its only purpose, function and fruit. OK if that's your game. 9 minutes ago, MikeyFresh said: My sentiments exactly ... DIYaudio ... doesn't even begin to resemble the other place you mention above which many others including myself also find appalling ... AS/CA has been and can be moving forward ... ASR as currently constituted simply cannot, not even close. Agreed. But even His Majesty knows when to call Time Out. Link to comment
Iving Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 15 minutes ago, kumakuma said: I think those who decided to leave felt unappreciated. I can't help but think that a simple message from Chris along the lines of the following would have prevented much of this unpleasantness and the exodus of good people: "Sorry to hear you've decided to leave. I wish you'd reconsider this decision as you're a valued member of this forum." I don't agree. It's not a human right to be appreciated by a forum owner. Too liable to misinterpretation too. Could add to the drama fire. On the other hand we can all welcome any friendly friends who want to be here - why not. Let's take responsibility ourselves instead of looking to Chris. ("ourselves" includes dearly departed) Teresa 1 Link to comment
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