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8 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 It appears to be way more of a problem in 60HZ 117VAC countries, or in high rise apartment buildings with lifts etc. elsewhere

The lower voltage means higher currents and thus stronger magnetic fields.

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22 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 It appears to be way more of a problem in 60HZ 117VAC countries, or in high rise apartment buildings with lifts etc. elsewhere

 

My first guess is that half the voltage means twice the current drain - same impedance in the circuits then causes double the level of noise voltages.


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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3 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Also if your house has many other contributors to generating rubbish.

 

Insidious, small scale, but numbers are a problem.

  Vampire SMPS like, microwave, phone chargers, routers, wifi extenders, TV & computers. 

Intermittent monsters

  Fluorescent lamps, oven, cooktop, washing machines, fridge, aircon, light switches

Worst offenders

Energy 'efficient' LED clusters, audio equipment - especially digital, just due to proximity

 

Audio Friendly house items

 Candles

 Soft furnishings

 Good earth (ground)

 Gas appliances

 

 

 

When I visit the local audio mate, he shuts the whole house down 😁  - as much as he can. So, now he only normally organises a listen when the rest of the family are absent - no carry on, "Why can't I go onto the Internet ... ?!!" 😄


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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16 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Also if your house has many other contributors to generating rubbish.

 Hi Gary

 In my experience, in most typical Au. suburban type areas, you only need a couple of decent mains filters at the right places to ensure no problems. ( I use 2 DIY filters including the attached with my P.C.)

 Failing fluorescent lights and cheap and nasty Energy 'efficient' LED clusters  can cause these problems, yet well designed equipment shouldn't normally be susceptible to the "Intermittent Monsters".

You do of course , however, need a decent Mains Earth .

 

Regards

Alex

 

3900W EMI 18A HF Power Filter Board DIY Kit.jpg


How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

 

PROFILE UPDATED 26-12-2019

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45 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Hi Gary

 In my experience, in most typical Au. suburban type areas, you only need a couple of decent mains filters at the right places to ensure no problems. ( I use 2 DIY filters including the attached with my P.C.)

 Failing fluorescent lights and cheap and nasty Energy 'efficient' LED clusters  can cause these problems, yet well designed equipment shouldn't normally be susceptible to the "Intermittent Monsters".

You do of course , however, need a decent Mains Earth .

 

Regards

Alex

 

3900W EMI 18A HF Power Filter Board DIY Kit.jpg

Glad you brought that up.

Here is a typical circuit of an EMC filter.  Now draw a connection between the input neutral and earth (left GND).

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For 120V and 230V TN networks where the neutral is bonded to earth at the panel (TN system) the potentials along the neutral to GND depend on the length of the wire run, but certainly is an impedance, small one, but it's there.

 

Observe cap CY2 on the output. Asymmetrical ICMN is very one sided in a TN system, the CY1 doing all the work, depending on impedances, let's say the voltage across CY2 is 2V-5V, if you're lucky ? The pair of caps are more or less the same as CX2, so another stage of differential rejection, fine, but common mode is more insidious. By design, the voltage across CY1 and CY2 should be 50/50. Well, why not give the two caps what they want, and tie the left GND to the 0V of a 120-0-120 or a 60-0-60 transformer. See what I'm getting at here. 

 

The main earth to the transformer is tied to this 0V, so the earth impedance to the source is very low 👍 as far as the filter is concerned. 

 

I can understand using the right GND terminal for the equipment earths, since the frame of the EMC filter is a shield in itself and opposes RF propagation. I use the 0V to terminate all earths from the equipment, since all earths are equal, but depends on the wiring and enclosures. The split reactors are a low pass filter at 50/60Hz, but not too sure where the line is drawn at the frequencies where the reactors attenuation falls off and the caps take over.

 

EMC filters are effective for digital devices where the AC current is small, but not that great benefit for power amps.


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3 minutes ago, One and a half said:

EMC filters are effective for digital devices where the AC current is small, but not that great benefit for power amps.

 I get your point about CY2.

 I do have a different DIY filter in line with my 15W Class A's separate Regulated PSU which also has 2 separate toroidal transformers inside it that supply my Preamp 18-0-18VAC , but I would never use a filter in line with a high powered amplifier.:o

 I do not feel the need to do any more in this area judging by what I have seen at the output of my Preamp at maximum volume using my CRO at maximum sensitivity,in conjunction with a very low noise  x10 gain Preamplifier where the result is more like a blurred line with what appears to be a tiny amount of almost invisible SMPS crud from the nearby TV .


How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

 

PROFILE UPDATED 26-12-2019

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24 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 I get your point about CY2.

 I do have a different DIY filter in line with my 15W Class A's separate Regulated PSU which also has 2 separate toroidal transformers inside it that supply my Preamp 18-0-18VAC , but I would never use a filter in line with a high powered amplifier.:o

 I do not feel the need to do any more in this area judging by what I have seen at the output of my Preamp at maximum volume using my CRO at maximum sensitivity,in conjunction with a very low noise  x10 gain Preamplifier where the result is more like a blurred line with what appears to be a tiny amount of almost invisible SMPS crud from the nearby TV .

 

I devised my own design for a mains filter, which doesn't rely on items like current limited cores - this should be usable on the highest powered amps, because there was nothing to saturate, or limit peak currents. Note, it was not universal; the parts were such to match the, very typical, input side of the component's power supply.

 

Quite effective ... I injected massive 240V arcing noise into the mains, nearby - without filter, spluttering galore from the speakers; with, dead quiet system.


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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38 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

I devised my own design for a mains filter, which doesn't rely on items like current limited cores - this should be usable on the highest powered amps, because there was nothing to saturate, or limit peak currents. Note, it was not universal; the parts were such to match the, very typical, input side of the component's power supply.

 

Quite effective ... I injected massive 240V arcing noise into the mains, nearby - without filter, spluttering galore from the speakers; with, dead quiet system.

Oh, 'mine's bigger than yours', ok.🙄


AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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Has anyone compared the 512 Engineering Symmetrical Power Source input transformer to one of the Stromtank units and have a preference?

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16 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Oh, 'mine's bigger than yours', ok.🙄

 

I find people's behaviour fascinating - if I don't describe what I do to achieve better sound, I'm abused - if I do contribute some comment relating to how I dealt with an issue mentioned in a post, I'm abused ... funny ol' place, this world ... 🙂

 

Note the tagline ... 😝


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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8 minutes ago, infonut said:

Has anyone compared the 512 Engineering Symmetrical Power Source input transformer to one of the Stromtank units and have a preference?

I’ve heard both and have no doubt the 512 solution is superior in the systems I’ve heard. The Stromtank is a neat solution and certainly looks cool, but I don’t know that it stands up to something like this symmetrical power source. 


Founder of Audiophile Style

Announcing Polestar | Quick Community Reviews and Ratings

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Again, for those who have a DIY bent, and want to try the Felicia method for creating your own isolation and balancing filter, which I mentioned in an earlier post - which should achieve most of what a commercial product can do ... I checked the cost of the key raw ingredients, available locally, and on the first site that came up, that should tally to about $AU1000 for a 4kVA capable effort. A lot cheaper for lower power requirements of course, but shows how much an energetic enthusiast can save, if they want to experiment ...

 

Would be certainly how I would go about it, if motivated.


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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I firmly believe that one of the main factors that should determine the value of an audio component is how it performs, not what it cost to manufacture. It is also determined by how easily somebody else can deliver the same performance for less money. So  $20,000 for what appears to be basically a balanced transformer seems excessive no matter how you value it. Knowing what I know about electronics, it is highly doubtful this guy has discovered a proprietary breakthrough in transformer technology that makes this one worth that much more than the competition, which is easily half that.

 
Hand wound, sounds sexy but at the end of the day… who cares? 
 
 
I do see the value in balanced power and of course never say never until you’ve heard it, but I do not see the value in paying an extra $10K to get his
 

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I presume you do not have either a schematic or manufacturing specification for the 512 Engineering transformer?  Nor do I.  I can tell you that the specifications were so difficult to achieve that a world-wide search resulted in very few manufacturers willing to even try, and fewer still who were capable.  Many of the other components are similarly difficult to source,  The results of all this work is a remarkable product.  While that, perhaps, is not of value to yourself, the company has found it has been to every potential customer who has evaluated it so far. 

 

 

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As I said, never say never until you've heard it, so I'm not closing my mind to or disparaging this device. However, it seems to me the jury is out on this until somebody does some listening tests that compare this device with the others available. There are a lot of options when it comes to balanced power. Every review I read about these devices seems to go on and on about how wonderful they are. So I'm not questioning whether or  not this unit improves the performance of a system. My questions is what sets this device apart from the others?

 

As far as specifications go, that is a bit of a red herring. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter how difficult they are to achieve or past a certain point even what they are. You may be too young to remember the Julian Hirsch era at "Stereo Review" where he raved on and on in the early days of transistor amplifiers giving glowing reviews of amplifiers that obtained lower and lower and lower distortion. Turns out they sounded like crap even though they measured very well. So bravo to these guys for achieving spectacular measurements.  Perhaps it is a monumental feat that they achieved 20dB rejection at 1 gigahertz or whatever the numbers are. Just not convinced it  makes any real world difference.

 

I have no doubt that Chris is hearing the stated improvements, but does this device perform better than those that cost much less? Given the challenges involved I doubt we ever see a balanced power shootout. One significant hurdle is the sheer size of these things as has been noted. Couple that with the difficulties in installing some and comparative reviews become logistically very difficult if not impossible. For instance, I  read a glowing review of an Equitech 5Kv wall mount unit that weighs over 300 pounds and had to be installed by electricians as part of the electrical system versus just plugging it in.  The reviewer bought it before the review so he could get it installed. Does the unit discussed here outperform the $10K Equitech unit? We'll probably never know.

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52 minutes ago, bbosler said:

I have no doubt that Chris is hearing the stated improvements, but does this device perform better than those that cost much less? Given the challenges involved I doubt we ever see a balanced power shootout. One significant hurdle is the sheer size of these things as has been noted. Couple that with the difficulties in installing some and comparative reviews become logistically very difficult if not impossible. For instance, I  read a glowing review of an Equitech 5Kv wall mount unit that weighs over 300 pounds and had to be installed by electricians as part of the electrical system versus just plugging it in.  The reviewer bought it before the review so he could get it installed. Does the unit discussed here outperform the $10K Equitech unit? We'll probably never know.

Yeah, this is one of those unfortunate realities. These things are beasts and the commitment it takes to evaluate them is quite serious and expensive.


Founder of Audiophile Style

Announcing Polestar | Quick Community Reviews and Ratings

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