Blake Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Some may have already listened to this interview and I already posted it in another thread, but I personally found this to be a very interesting interview, worthy of its own thread. For those interested in the objective/subjective/measurement discussions here on AS, I think it is definitely worth a listen. I tend to stay out of these sorts of discussions and have no agenda in posting this. Anyone can feel free to comment as they want. I recommend listening to the whole interview if you have the time, its not just about usb cables. Personally, I think it gets more interesting later on in the interview. https://darko.audio/2020/02/expert-opinion-paul-mcgowan-ps-audio/ RickyV 1 Speaker Room: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Pacific 2 | Viva Linea | Constellation Inspiration Stereo 1.0 | FinkTeam Kim | Revel subs Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC Link to comment
Popular Post Speedskater Posted February 4, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 4, 2020 he writes: PS Audio CEO Paul McGowan – a hi-fi expert – really? marce, tmtomh and daverich4 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted February 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 5, 2020 As a rule of thumb, if you're looking for the truth, you can take whatever Paul McGowan says and invert it. tmtomh, esldude, Thuaveta and 9 others 7 1 1 3 Link to comment
Superdad Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Interesting that you include the Audio Precision analyzer in the title of this thread. While it is a very nice general purpose unit, it is not well suited to measuring jitter in DACs. What’s that? Heresy! If you look at the specifications for the ADC in the top-of-the-line APx555, you will see that its own jitter is 600 picoseconds! So that will swamp the jitter details of a device under test—which might be in the range of 10s of picoseconds. UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
marce Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 It is very hard to get 10ps jitter at a device pin and in the layouts I have seen RF techniques are not used and using an external clock and in device clock generation I would say is almost in achievable for commercial audio, and I thought phase related jitter was the new demon!🙂 Listened to quite a few of Paul's technical videos, he works and sells into the audiophile world so there is a bias.... Link to comment
mansr Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 For jitter, wouldn't better results be obtained by measuring at the clock input to the DAC chip using a (ridiculously expensive) phase noise analyser? These specs for a Rohde & Schwarz instrument should be good enough for most DACs: Such a measurement obviously won't take into account any degradation within the DAC chip, which I don't know how bad it might be. Then again, if it is too bad, all those fancy clocks won't be doing any good. Link to comment
tapatrick Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 14 hours ago, mansr said: As a rule of thumb, if you're looking for the truth, you can take whatever Paul McGowan says and invert it. is this an objective statement...? christopher3393 1 Topaz 2.5Kva Isolation Transformer > EtherRegen switch powered by Paul Hynes SR4 LPS >MacBook Pro 2013 > EC Designs PowerDac SX > TNT UBYTE-2 Speaker cables > Omega Super Alnico Monitors > 2x Rel T Zero Subwoofers. Link to comment
Superdad Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 3 hours ago, mansr said: For jitter, wouldn't better results be obtained by measuring at the clock input to the DAC chip using a (ridiculously expensive) phase noise analyser? These specs for a Rohde & Schwarz instrument should be good enough for most DACs: The Microsemi units—based on John Miles original Timepod—have better performance for much less money. UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Arpiben Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 26 minutes ago, Superdad said: The Microsemi units—based on John Miles original Timepod—have better performance for much less money. Except that frequency range is from 1MHz up to 400 MHz...😉 (5125a) Link to comment
Arpiben Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 8 hours ago, Superdad said: Interesting that you include the Audio Precision analyzer in the title of this thread. While it is a very nice general purpose unit, it is not well suited to measuring jitter in DACs. What’s that? Heresy! If you look at the specifications for the ADC in the top-of-the-line APx555, you will see that its own jitter is 600 picoseconds! So that will swamp the jitter details of a device under test—which might be in the range of 10s of picoseconds. Correct regarding specifications. BTW there are several methods for measuring lower jitter than own equipment, dual ADC + DSP is one of them. 😉 Superdad 1 Link to comment
mansr Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Arpiben said: Except that frequency range is from 1MHz up to 400 MHz...😉 (5125a) And they seem impossible to buy. Link to comment
Superdad Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, mansr said: And they seem impossible to buy. John Miles--developer of the original Timepod (upon which the Symmetricon/Microsemi units are based) and author of the terrific and open-source s/w for it--has gone to work for Jackson Labs. His joining them has resulted in the recent introduction of the PhaseStation: http://www.jackson-labs.com/index.php/products/phasestation_signal_source_analyzer, at a much more reasonable $13,460. We have been dreaming about getting one for a while, though it may wait a bit longer as we are about to buy a high-speed differential logic analyzer (about $4K with probe kits) for another project. UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
mansr Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 11 minutes ago, Superdad said: John Miles--developer of the original Timepod (upon which the Symmetricon/Microsemi units are based) and author of the terrific and open-source s/w for it--has gone to work for Jackson Labs. His joining them has resulted in the recent introduction of the PhaseStation: http://www.jackson-labs.com/index.php/products/phasestation_signal_source_analyzer, at a much more reasonable $13,460. That amount of money for a device relying on proprietary software that may or may not work next year is not what I call reasonable. Speedskater 1 Link to comment
christopher3393 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 25 minutes ago, mansr said: That amount of money for a device relying on proprietary software that may or may not work next year is not what I call reasonable. How did you discern that the software may not work next year? Is this a subjective opinion? Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted February 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, christopher3393 said: How did you discern that the software may not work next year? Is this a subjective opinion? Windows updates occasionally break old software, especially device drivers. If the vendor, for whatever reason, stops supporting the product, it is only a matter of time before it breaks. Happens all the time. askat1988, Samuel T Cogley, esldude and 3 others 4 2 Link to comment
christopher3393 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, mansr said: Windows updates occasionally break old software, especially device drivers. If the vendor, for whatever reason, stops supporting the product, it is only a matter of time before it breaks. Happens all the time. So you are suggesting it's a calculated risk that you would personally prefer not to take. Do you know this vendor's track record, or are you, perhaps, overgeneralizing because you just don't like the price? Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted February 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, christopher3393 said: So you are suggesting it's a calculated risk that you would personally prefer not to take. Do you know this vendor's track record, or are you, perhaps, overgeneralizing because you just don't like the price? I know nothing about this particular vendor. I have no reason to doubt their competence, but that's not what this is about. All products are eventually discontinued. Even if the company has every intention of supporting this device for the foreseeable future, they might be acquired by someone with different priorities, or they might go bankrupt. Happens all the time. Speedskater, Ralf11, Samuel T Cogley and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment
RickyV Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 20 hours ago, Blake said: Some may have already listened to this interview and I already posted it in another thread, but I personally found this to be a very interesting interview, worthy of its own thread. For those interested in the objective/subjective/measurement discussions here on AS, I think it is definitely worth a listen. I tend to stay out of these sorts of discussions and have no agenda in posting this. Anyone can feel free to comment as they want. I recommend listening to the whole interview if you have the time, its not just about usb cables. Personally, I think it gets more interesting later on in the interview. https://darko.audio/2020/02/expert-opinion-paul-mcgowan-ps-audio/ Blake good pointer. I really liked the interview, Thanks. Blake 1 Meitner ma1 v2 dac, Sovereign preamp and power amp, DIY speakers, scan speak illuminator. Raal Requisite VM-1a -> SR-1a with Accurate Sound convolution. Under development: NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus, Qobuz. Modded Buffalo-fiber-EtherRegen, DC3- Isoregen, Lush^2 Link to comment
sandyk Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, mansr said: Windows updates occasionally break old software, especially device drivers. If the vendor, for whatever reason, stops supporting the product, it is only a matter of time before it breaks. Happens all the time. Including Wi Fi dongles. I recently had to replace a Wi Fi dongle due to a Windows update, even though the S/W was the most recent version . How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
plissken Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, sandyk said: Including Wi Fi dongles. I recently had to replace a Wi Fi dongle due to a Windows update, even though the S/W was the most recent version . Oy... Don't get started on that. For the longest time I was getting customers to pay for the upgrade to Windows 10 Pro. The reason is in local policy editor I was able to disable 'Windows Consumer Experience' (i.e. Candy Crush Saga and games like that from the market place from showing up). That was great for years. Then I start getting calls from pissed off business owners because one day games started showing up in the start menu. I drill down to the policy and there's a nice note from M$ saying that you now need either Enterprise or Ultimate edition. lucretius 1 Link to comment
rickca Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 @plissken you may want to try this. The developer has done an incredible amount of work and it's free. https://www.getblackbird.net/documentation/ Solstice380 1 Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs i7-6700K/Windows 10 --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's Link to comment
plissken Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 8 hours ago, rickca said: @plissken you may want to try this. The developer has done an incredible amount of work and it's free. https://www.getblackbird.net/documentation/ Sounds a lot like Windows Kiosk. I've used that as a template for a few years now to lock down machines. There's also a M$ HIPPA guide that will disable a lot. Link to comment
Archimago Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Interesting interview... Lots of questionable stuff in there that might be worth commenting on. Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile. Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism. R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
marce Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 I agree, but loose track when he meanders off topic with his little anecdotes, I must make some notes next time. Link to comment
fas42 Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Just started listening, and got to the end of the first anecdote - as in, "What the F did you just do?!!" ... "Umm, changed the USB cable ..." ... couldn't get a better example of what real audio optimisation is all about, 😁. Was the inserted cable, "fabulous" ... ? Nope - in fact it could be a pile of smelly poo, as far as its technical performance was concerned - what mattered is that its characteristics, in areas normally considered irrelevant, and therefore not "measured", were enough to counteract an area of weakness in the playback chain - it was a band aid to compensate for a lack of robustness in the underlying signal path. Which seems almost impossible for most audiophiles to assimilate - so obsessed with Adding Goodness, that the time spent on thinking about Subtracting Badness is tiny in comparison - and hence the often huge struggles to "make the rig sound good!". Link to comment
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