vortecjr Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 hour ago, AriMargolis said: @vortecjr Aurender‘s platform is based on the standard USB audio drivers and MPD player software but it’s not just an “off the shelf” / “plug-and-play” implementation. Inevitably, some DACs do things a little differently. As you know, many DACs were not engineered explicitly for use with Linux sources, so Aurender’s SW team installs certain tweaks to achieve full compatibility when necessary. I don’t know how much if any of it is proprietary, but it is custom engineered/bespoke implementation for Aurender. It can not be proprietary if they are patching the Linux Kernel. Custom patches to the Linux Kernel, MPD, etc. have to be shared back with the Linux community or it's an illegal product. I know you are not the developer so maybe Aurender should provide clarification. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
AurenderAmerica Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 @vortecjr yeah I think I misspoke. I will clarify after educating myself and talking to Eric. Link to comment
vortecjr Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 hour ago, AriMargolis said: @The Computer Audiophile @jabbr The source code is posted at aurender.com Just to clarify - I'm not a software engineer. Maybe I used the wrong terminology about "patches" and caused confusion above? I can get more info from Aurender's SW team on Monday if clarification is needed. All I was trying to say in my comment above is that in cases where compatibility issues arise, most of the time they can be fixed by changing settings on the software side without the DAC manufacturer having to do anything. I know that:) If Aurender has an older Kernel like Jabbr says then Aurender could take newer (within the same series more or less) Linux code and apply it to their older Kernel. However, they can only do so much of that before they need to write their own code to make things work correctly. Any new Aurender code would need to be provided to the Linux community. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
vortecjr Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 30 minutes ago, Superdad said: Custom Linux patches are available: that is a clever work around to the GLP:) SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
jabbr Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 2 hours ago, AriMargolis said: I can get more info from Aurender's SW team on Monday if clarification is needed. All I was trying to say in my comment above is that in cases where compatibility issues arise, most of the time they can be fixed by changing settings on the software side without the DAC manufacturer having to do anything. There may indeed be software settings that optimize each DAC, for example some work better with PCM vs DSD at various rates. In other cases the USB audio driver itself needs to be patched. Since this thread is about the Schiit USB interface I would imagine that "incompatibilities" have to do with the Linux ALSA USB audio driver. That is not something supplied by the DAC manufacturer, rather the Linux kernel which is of course GPL. Other members here such as @Miska, @agillis / @vortecjr have been known to supply ALSA USB patches to fix incompatibilities with various DACs. So, yes, let us know! Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Popular Post AurenderAmerica Posted April 28, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 28, 2020 @vortecjr @jabbr @The Computer Audiophile I'm not going to continue to hijack this thread, but I do want to clarify my answers from over the weekend. Based on some of the responses, it seemed like there was some concern that Aurender was not playing by the rules according to the Linux GPL. After speaking with Aurender's lead software dev, Eric Shim, I can confirm that that is definitely NOT the case. Any of you readers who have met Eric at a show or otherwise know that he is extremely kind and generous and he firmly believes in the spirit of the GPL. He clarified that, yes, of course he and his team do make updates and changes to the Linux Kernal on a case by case basis to solve problems as they come up. None of the changes he's made are proprietary in any way. Aurender's complete source code is provided on request to anyone who asks. Aurender sends the complete source code to MPD annually, and it has been updated here as well. Back to the original subject of compatibility with the Unison update - @agillis @vortecjr - it sounds like you guys have not encountered this "buzz on 'next' command" issue with the Unison...did you have to apply any patches? or did it "just work?" There may well be something on our side that is "unique" (but not proprietary) to Aurender that needs to change, but in case it's a broader problem requiring a patch to the audio driver, now would be a good time for me to ask if you already have the solution? AudioDoctor and jabbr 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post matthias Posted May 17, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 17, 2020 Some new info from Mike Moffat about Unison Out: "It has been weeks, if not months since I gave Jason the good news that the Unison USB as a digital out was of far greater promise than the BWD (bit word data) interface which I utilized back in the 1980s. At that time, it was vastly superior over S/Pdif, which was then was the only method of digital connectivity. Well, as of now the best by far new method is Unison USB out to Unison USB in. The king is dead – long live the king. A huge Unison advantage over BWD is that it connects standard method - USB to USB. No need for weird-assed proprietary connectors/cables. To say nothing of the sound. The problem is that since we cannot be arrogant enough (although glibly tempting) to say that this Schiit Unison output, should be connected to Schiit DACs only. The problem is that is in BWD territory – proprietrary. NFG. So we first made the Unison output work with our Unison and GenX Schiit USB inputs. In this case of the Unison USB output, there are some 7-8 other chips (I think as of now; could be a couple more) used for USB audio input in the wild. These are chips made by others which our competitors of necessity buy. So we have to make our USB input work with a variety of other people’s chips. Since we are making our own USB interface, these chipmakers view us as competition and are not forthcoming with what we need to do to work with their chips. So we gave to figure it out for ourselves. This is now in process, along with debugs. Ivana just gave me her latest version of Unison USB Out software which indeed is sounds better, less buggy and runs faster. So just for emphasis, let me repeat loudly: BWD is dead, beyond stiff and smelling very badly. The have been some on this forum chattering about it, but all they do is waste bandwidth. I am sorry it took so long for me to clarify this." Matt The Computer Audiophile, AnotherSpin and AudioDoctor 2 1 "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
Popular Post JoeWhip Posted May 17, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 17, 2020 Can’t wait for the USB transport. Hopefully it has usb pass through. matthias and SuperRoo 2 Link to comment
Popular Post baldr Posted May 19, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 19, 2020 So I can’t believe I have been building digital audio stuff for Schiit up on 10 years. The worst of it for me at the beginning was building the USB inputs which I always thought sounded like ass; kinda worse than an old cassette tape or 8 track – insufferable. Like listening to Herbert von Karajan. So there has been a quote attributed to me that the Gen V was USB solved. This was a couple of years ago and I just cannot recall the context. At the risk of sounding like I attempt to change my historical opinion, this is what I thought at the time: the Gen V USB was the first USB where I could play USB and stay in the same room with it. It by no means made want to skip into the audio room to listen to it. Since I was quoted as that was USB solved, than it was like a baloney sandwich “solves” lunch – at least I would’ve probably not thrown it up. The Gen (various) USBs were all based on a C-Media USB decoder chip, there are many other chips which decode digital audio, the most popular of which is various XMOS (sic – maybe a hyphen) ones used by our competitors. As far as I know, all of our competition uses somebody’s OEM chip. The Unison solution is Schiit proprietary decoding fitted in a Microchip 32 bit pic part. This allows us complete freedom in all design params, both hardware and software, optimized for best sound and factors which will please the measurebators as well. So we worked for over three man(one woman) years to get the part to Beta level. Then we sent out beta Unisons to users. This would verify how the Unison fared with various USB sources. Somehow our group of beta users missed the Aurender. Fortunately, we were able to work that out by sending them a unit and life goes on happily. So why do we want to go to the trouble of three man years to develop our own USB technology? 1. It is OUR technology, impossible in a chipmaker’s device. 2. We are now USB licensees with our own unique USB ID and unmatched USB support. 3. Sonic bragging rights. So is this USB solved? In the sense that it is however, USB which I prefer to S/Pdif, which gets even better with a Unison host (USB encoder, so to speak). Is it likely to improve? Probably. Is it perfect? No, but I like it. A lot, and I have been doing this a long time. More on the Unison host is that it is now in alpha, still with the very occasional glitch but magnificent when paired with a Unison receiver. The best USB connectivity I have ever heard, and superior to any AES or S/Pdif in my experience. It is getting close to Beta but I still need to get it going with a common variety of OP’s (other people’s) USB chips before I send them out in the wild to see what else lurks there. Is it solved? I dunno. In 35 years of digital audio engineering, I experienced maybe 4 or 5 true audio major events. Two of them were Unison. The only time I ever thought I solved something was when I finished my first DSP D/A converter in 1985. I got it to market in just ahead of the Wadia which made it first on the market. Here I set dozens of D/A converters later and the meaning of “solved” is yet more numinous. Sure enjoyed all of those years, though. Mike AudioDoctor, opus101, Anonamemouse and 7 others 3 3 4 Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted May 19, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted May 19, 2020 13 minutes ago, baldr said: So I can’t believe I have been building digital audio stuff for Schiit up on 10 years. The worst of it for me at the beginning was building the USB inputs which I always thought sounded like ass; kinda worse than an old cassette tape or 8 track – insufferable. Like listening to Herbert von Karajan. So there has been a quote attributed to me that the Gen V was USB solved. This was a couple of years ago and I just cannot recall the context. At the risk of sounding like I attempt to change my historical opinion, this is what I thought at the time: the Gen V USB was the first USB where I could play USB and stay in the same room with it. It by no means made want to skip into the audio room to listen to it. Since I was quoted as that was USB solved, than it was like a baloney sandwich “solves” lunch – at least I would’ve probably not thrown it up. The Gen (various) USBs were all based on a C-Media USB decoder chip, there are many other chips which decode digital audio, the most popular of which is various XMOS (sic – maybe a hyphen) ones used by our competitors. As far as I know, all of our competition uses somebody’s OEM chip. The Unison solution is Schiit proprietary decoding fitted in a Microchip 32 bit pic part. This allows us complete freedom in all design params, both hardware and software, optimized for best sound and factors which will please the measurebators as well. So we worked for over three man(one woman) years to get the part to Beta level. Then we sent out beta Unisons to users. This would verify how the Unison fared with various USB sources. Somehow our group of beta users missed the Aurender. Fortunately, we were able to work that out by sending them a unit and life goes on happily. So why do we want to go to the trouble of three man years to develop our own USB technology? 1. It is OUR technology, impossible in a chipmaker’s device. 2. We are now USB licensees with our own unique USB ID and unmatched USB support. 3. Sonic bragging rights. So is this USB solved? In the sense that it is however, USB which I prefer to S/Pdif, which gets even better with a Unison host (USB encoder, so to speak). Is it likely to improve? Probably. Is it perfect? No, but I like it. A lot, and I have been doing this a long time. More on the Unison host is that it is now in alpha, still with the very occasional glitch but magnificent when paired with a Unison receiver. The best USB connectivity I have ever heard, and superior to any AES or S/Pdif in my experience. It is getting close to Beta but I still need to get it going with a common variety of OP’s (other people’s) USB chips before I send them out in the wild to see what else lurks there. Is it solved? I dunno. In 35 years of digital audio engineering, I experienced maybe 4 or 5 true audio major events. Two of them were Unison. The only time I ever thought I solved something was when I finished my first DSP D/A converter in 1985. I got it to market in just ahead of the Wadia which made it first on the market. Here I set dozens of D/A converters later and the meaning of “solved” is yet more numinous. Sure enjoyed all of those years, though. Mike So much fresh meat in that post Mike, I don't know where to start :~) Thanks for all the information. After interviewing Ed Meitner about why he designs custom DAC chips and seeing your post here, I can conclude the two of you guys certainly like your freedom. When it's your own design, you can do what you want and aren't at the will of anyone else. I like it. I'm listening to the Yggdrasil (analog 2 & Unison USB) going into a Jot-R and SR1a headphones as I type this. It's hard to beat what I'm hearing for less money, and even a whole bunch more money :~) I can't wait to see the Unison digital output. matthias, opus101 and AudioDoctor 3 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
AudioDoctor Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 SO is this device going to be a CD player? A Server? What exactly? No electron left behind. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted May 19, 2020 Author Share Posted May 19, 2020 Just now, AudioDoctor said: SO is this device going to be a CD player? A Server? What exactly? Oh how the options open up when it's one's own tech :~) Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post AudioDoctor Posted May 19, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted May 19, 2020 1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Oh how the options open up when it's one's own tech :~) True. Can it be an anti-tinnitus device? The Computer Audiophile and JHG 2 No electron left behind. Link to comment
matthias Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 57 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said: SO is this device going to be a CD player? A Server? What exactly? AFAIK, the first device will be the Schiit CD transport. Matt AudioDoctor 1 "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
AudioDoctor Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 Roon endpoint or NAA endpoint? No electron left behind. Link to comment
rickca Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 11 hours ago, baldr said: The best USB connectivity I have ever heard Can Unison host be implemented in a PCIe USB card like the JCAT USB Femto or a device like the Uptone ISO REGEN? Is Schiit interested in partnering with another company to accelerate adoption of Unison host? Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs i7-6700K/Windows 10 --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's Link to comment
matthias Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 3 hours ago, rickca said: Can Unison host be implemented in a PCIe USB card like the JCAT USB Femto or a device like the Uptone ISO REGEN? Is Schiit interested in partnering with another company to accelerate adoption of Unison host? AFAIK from comments of Jason and Mike on some forums they are not interested. With these devices they would promote their competitors. Matt rickca 1 "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
matthias Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 Some news from MM: Work on transport continues. The transport is still in alpha stage, where it will remain until I have confidence in it USB driving a majority of the DACs out in the wild. Sounds amazing, though. The reason is that there are far more USB input chips (DAC side) in the wild than USB output chips which drive the Unison USB input section already in Schiit production. I have just built a gizmo which can test DACs to see if they are compatible. I shall see how many DACs I can find and test. More shall be revealed. Matt "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 On 5/18/2020 at 8:49 PM, AudioDoctor said: SO is this device going to be a CD player? A Server? What exactly? SD player would be nice...especially since sd cards can hold a LOT these days...cd not so interesting. senorx 1 Link to comment
AudioDoctor Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 12 minutes ago, beerandmusic said: SD player would be nice...especially since sd cards can hold a LOT these days...cd not so interesting. IMO, that makes even less sense unless you're making a portable device. No electron left behind. Link to comment
Popular Post baldr Posted June 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 5, 2020 It is quite the challenge to qualify the USB output of the transport with the hundreds of D/A converters in the wild. No such problem with S/Pdif, as it is a standardized input/output protocol, with specific control bits reserved. The USB, on the other hand, has standard descriptors and handshake speeds for both speeds of digital audio. Other unusual formats, such as dsd (not picking on them – there are many others) have descriptors and handshake protocols which vary in speed and assignment. It therefore becomes a complex problem to interface our USB output with a wide variety of D/a converters, which only begins with access to those devices. The generally proprietary nature of our industry, makes access problematical. The gizmo we have built is a two input USB switcher with our Unison USB output. This will allow the user to verify if our USB out works with their converter. It is also a much smaller box than a transport to utilize when we arrive at early beta times. As quoted above the transport remains in alpha. If it is not already obvious, the product is a CD transport. This is a good time for me to restate my opinion that CD playback with our Unison CD Host and Input is the finest digital audio I have heard. I know, I know, it is all ones and zeros, no?? There is something else in play, since streamers are just NOT the same. When I figure out what's different, maybe I'll be rich. matthias, StimpyWan, left channel and 4 others 4 2 1 Link to comment
matthias Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 40 minutes ago, baldr said: It is quite the challenge to qualify the USB output of the transport with the hundreds of D/A converters in the wild. No such problem with S/Pdif, as it is a standardized input/output protocol, with specific control bits reserved. The USB, on the other hand, has standard descriptors and handshake speeds for both speeds of digital audio. Other unusual formats, such as dsd (not picking on them – there are many others) have descriptors and handshake protocols which vary in speed and assignment. It therefore becomes a complex problem to interface our USB output with a wide variety of D/a converters, which only begins with access to those devices. The generally proprietary nature of our industry, makes access problematical. The gizmo we have built is a two input USB switcher with our Unison USB output. This will allow the user to verify if our USB out works with their converter. It is also a much smaller box than a transport to utilize when we arrive at early beta times. As quoted above the transport remains in alpha. If it is not already obvious, the product is a CD transport. This is a good time for me to restate my opinion that CD playback with our Unison CD Host and Input is the finest digital audio I have heard. I know, I know, it is all ones and zeros, no?? There is something else in play, since streamers are just NOT the same. When I figure out what's different, maybe I'll be rich. Mike, thanks for sharing 🙂 Does it sound better than your famous Theta transport? Matt "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 1 hour ago, AudioDoctor said: IMO, that makes even less sense unless you're making a portable device. why? sd card may not be as easy for noise or other reasons, but certainly would be a much more useful product than a cd player in terms of quantity and convenience. Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 2 hours ago, baldr said: It is quite the challenge to qualify the USB output of the transport with the hundreds of D/A converters in the wild. No such problem with S/Pdif, as it is a standardized input/output protocol, with specific control bits reserved. The USB, on the other hand, has standard descriptors and handshake speeds for both speeds of digital audio. Other unusual formats, such as dsd (not picking on them – there are many others) have descriptors and handshake protocols which vary in speed and assignment. It therefore becomes a complex problem to interface our USB output with a wide variety of D/a converters, which only begins with access to those devices. The generally proprietary nature of our industry, makes access problematical. The gizmo we have built is a two input USB switcher with our Unison USB output. This will allow the user to verify if our USB out works with their converter. It is also a much smaller box than a transport to utilize when we arrive at early beta times. As quoted above the transport remains in alpha. If it is not already obvious, the product is a CD transport. This is a good time for me to restate my opinion that CD playback with our Unison CD Host and Input is the finest digital audio I have heard. I know, I know, it is all ones and zeros, no?? There is something else in play, since streamers are just NOT the same. When I figure out what's different, maybe I'll be rich. it's all about timing Link to comment
AudioDoctor Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 7 hours ago, beerandmusic said: why? sd card may not be as easy for noise or other reasons, but certainly would be a much more useful product than a cd player in terms of quantity and convenience. Because unless it's a portable device, my entire library won't fit on an SD card for one, and for two, why? It is a pointless complication. No electron left behind. Link to comment
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