Jump to content
SoundSparks

Differences in sound: DAC vs. DAC + Pre-amplifier

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Additional note on the Bob Katz article:

 

His theory is that the improvement in subjective sonics is the result of masking: that the additional H2 distortion is masking more objectionable distortion products from other components.  This is an interesting topic which I would love to learn more about, perhaps in another thread, and may be what @CG was referring to earlier in this thread which he referred to as distortion cancelling.

But I would suggest that we now can have electronics which have no audible distortion at all, so there is no distortion which needs to be masked anymore.  


ROON: DSD 256-Sonore opticalModule-Signature Rendu optical--Buffalo PRO or DSC-2--Ncore 400 Stereo-Focus Audio FS888-JL E-112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY AC cables, Iconoclast XLR, Iconoclast speaker, cables, Synergistic Orange & Hi Fi Tuning Supreme Cu Fuses, Dark Matter system clarifiers.    Design/Build Consultant with Sonore

 

                                                       

SONORE computer audio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, CG said:

If you go to your favorite search engine and type in "distortion cancellation mechanism series amplifiers" you'll get "About 3,140,000 results".  

 I feel cheated. I only got "About 2,730,000 results  (0.45 seconds) "

 

 For anyone interested in learning more about many of the amplifier distortion mechanisms, a good reference is

Audio Power Amplifier Design Handbook 5th ed - D. Self (Focal, 2009) where he details 11 Different types of Distortion

 

The distortion mechanisms
Distortion 1: Input stage distortion
Distortion 2: VAS
Distortion 3: Output stage distortion
Distortion 4: VAS-loading distortion
Distortion 5: Rail-decoupling distortion
Distortion 6: Induction distortion
Distortion 7: NFB take-off distortion
Distortion 8: Capacitor distortion
Distortion 9: Magnetic distortion
Distortion 10: Input current distortion
Distortion 11: Premature overload protection

 

(VAS  = Voltage Amplification Stage)


How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

 

PROFILE UPDATED 26-12-2019

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, sandyk said:

 For anyone interested in learning more about many of the amplifier distortion mechanisms, a good reference is

Audio Power Amplifier Design Handbook 5th ed - D. Self (Focal, 2009) where he details 11 Different types of Distortion

 

He also had nice series of articles on these topics on the Electronics & Wireless World magazine back in the days.

 

My current amplifiers are actually designed by him (pre- and power)...

 


Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, barrows said:

As for objective/subjective discussions, i am not a believer in "camps" or dichotomies when it comes to audio playback systems.  And I think that the current fashion of placing audiophiles/music lovers into "camps" like this is destructive, silly, and infantile.  Surely listening to music is a subjective experience, so subjective impressions matter.  Similarly, decent audio components cannot be adequately designed without engineering/maths and making many measurements.  Separating these things out, and defining people as one or the other is absurd to me.

 

Agreed, 100%.  Unfortunately, there are lots of people in our community that put themselves in a "camp" and we have recently seen the results of extremist "camp" views here on AS. 

 

To be very clear, in case it was implied from my post, I was definitely not referring to you as being one of the hard-line objectivists.  I should have clarified that earlier.  I have never considered you to be in any camp.  I enjoy reading your posts and have learned much from you over the years.  You are one of the good people on this forum.  I am always very interested in the views and experience of those, like yourself, who work in the industry as you have insight that most others do not have.  And, of course, I have benefited greatly from my Sonore products! :)


Home: EtherRegen + Farad Super3 LPS | UltraRendu + Uptone LPS 1.2 | Berkeley Alpha USB | Denafrips Terminator | Jeff Rowland Coherence II Series 2 pre | Blue Circle Audio BC-202 amp | Raidho XT-1 | 2 x Revel Performa3 B112 subwoofers  

 

Desktop: Iso Regen + LPS 1 | Eitr | Chord Qutest  | Aesthetix Calypso pre | Blue Circle Audio BC-28 amp | Scansonic MK-5 monitors | Elac S10 sub

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the kind words @Blake.  I hope that others here would be reasonable and dismiss the idea of creating division between audiophiles/music lovers by dividing them into camps, were are in this together for the love of music and hi fidelity music playback in the home.


ROON: DSD 256-Sonore opticalModule-Signature Rendu optical--Buffalo PRO or DSC-2--Ncore 400 Stereo-Focus Audio FS888-JL E-112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY AC cables, Iconoclast XLR, Iconoclast speaker, cables, Synergistic Orange & Hi Fi Tuning Supreme Cu Fuses, Dark Matter system clarifiers.    Design/Build Consultant with Sonore

 

                                                       

SONORE computer audio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So... as I was typing this, we just experienced yet another earthquake aftershock here in Salt Lake City.  The house shook pretty good!  I think we are at something like 350+ aftershocks now.  Ok, worldwide pandemics (check), earthquakes (check)....   What next?! 🤕

 

Of course, others in more earthquake prone areas of the world would laugh at a 5.7 quake!:)

 


Home: EtherRegen + Farad Super3 LPS | UltraRendu + Uptone LPS 1.2 | Berkeley Alpha USB | Denafrips Terminator | Jeff Rowland Coherence II Series 2 pre | Blue Circle Audio BC-202 amp | Raidho XT-1 | 2 x Revel Performa3 B112 subwoofers  

 

Desktop: Iso Regen + LPS 1 | Eitr | Chord Qutest  | Aesthetix Calypso pre | Blue Circle Audio BC-28 amp | Scansonic MK-5 monitors | Elac S10 sub

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Miska said:

 

He also had nice series of articles on these topics on the Electronics & Wireless World magazine back in the days.

 

My current amplifiers are actually designed by him (pre- and power)…

 

 Hi Miska

Yes, I have seen some of his earlier articles.

 Both my >15W/Ch Class A and Class A Preamp embody his principles, as well as very low noise (4uV) separate regulation for the P.A. front ends and being completely DC coupled with a monoblock type construction, although in the same metal rack case, and separate regulated power for each channel of the P.A. (2 x 21-0-21V windings on the same screened toroidal transformer) and individual external toroidal transformers for both channels of the Preamp. All of the main power is in a separate 2U rack case with the Preamp fed 2 x 18-0-18VAC, and the P.A. fed 2 x regulated + and - 20V

 

Regards

Alex


How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

 

PROFILE UPDATED 26-12-2019

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/26/2020 at 5:50 AM, barrows said:

Certainly all generalized statements are done so for the purpose of communication,

 

Most certainly they are not (tongue in cheek) 😲 This is one of my better generalizations.😉

 

On 3/26/2020 at 5:50 AM, barrows said:

 

 when I, or anyone, generalizes, I accept that there may be a very small percentage of exceptions to that generalization, and I expect that a reader would just assume this,

 

One should never assume.  This is one of my better generalizations.😉

 

On 3/26/2020 at 5:50 AM, barrows said:

as without the ability to generalize it is virtually impossible to have a discussion at all (in fact without the ability to generalize we would be forever pointing out the caveats and never actually getting anywhere).

 

 

generally this is not true 😅 (tongue still in cheek0

 

 

On 3/26/2020 at 5:50 AM, barrows said:

 

As for tubes, only in the last few years have I come to the perspective that tubes are now completely obsolete in the quest for the absolute best possible playback systems.  

 

 

This is not a generalization and IMO does not attempt to state a categorical truth.

 

On 3/26/2020 at 5:50 AM, barrows said:

  And I think that the current fashion of placing audiophiles/music lovers into "camps" like this is destructive, silly, and infantile.

 

.....but apart from being destructive, silly, and infantile people advocating this fashion are good guys, right?

 

</end tongue in cheek>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you guys think about adding sub-woofers in a DAC direct to amp system?

Is it OK to split a 2V RCA output and run a set of cables 1 meter to the amp, and another set to the subs maybe 4 meters each?

 

I get the feeling that most DAC makers generally are expecting the user to use a single set of outputs to a single receiving device.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, motberg said:

What do you guys think about adding sub-woofers in a DAC direct to amp system?

Is it OK to split a 2V RCA output and run a set of cables 1 meter to the amp, and another set to the subs maybe 4 meters each?

 

I get the feeling that most DAC makers generally are expecting the user to use a single set of outputs to a single receiving device.

 

That depends mostly on the DAC output capability and the load it will need to drive, i.e. the input impedance of the power amp and sub crossover. 

 

Initially I tried the above and was not satisfied. The sound was transparent and more detailed but music became boring (poor PRaT). I subsequently learned that the sub crossover I use has an input impedance of 6kΩ, and my power amps are 20kΩ. That's a combined load of 4.6kOhms. My DAC has very low input impedance, just a few ohms, but it could not provide sufficient current for this load. 

 

I found a solution though. I am running my monoblock power amps from the RCA outputs on my DAC/Pre. The DAC's XLR outputs are feeding a passive preamp with 50kΩ input impedance. The passive pre drives the sub crossover via RCA's. Combined load on the DAC is now 14kΩ. I am getting the best sound I've ever had.

 

Brand new, my analog preamp cost three times as much as my DAC/Pre. Nevertheless, I prefer the sound directly from DAC to amps. I ripped all my LP's and sold the preamp. 

 

One other more minor caveat. When I used an RCA splitter in a previous bi-amped system. I could always hear a slight deterioration due to the (high quality) splitter and ended up not using it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...