Jump to content
IGNORED

Building a DIY Music Server


Recommended Posts

13 minutes ago, Gurkel said:

 

Can you send a screenshot of the process explorer (windows) or top (Linux)? Wanna see how much CPU power this encoding requires. All cores please, don't think resampling is multithreaded.

 

This still doesn't make the claim with the "modified OS" more true as it doesn't change the hard coded routines in the CPU, and these routines  already do what you try to achieve on OS level - just in a much more efficient way. This OS thing sounds to me like a red hering to me or: you try to solve a problem which doesn't exist. 

 

But now I'll look around a bit more to see what others use.


There isn’t a CPU currently made that can process DSD512 with EC modulators for playback without dropouts.

 

HQPlayer is the app. It can be coded to be multi threaded. You’re suggestion that resampling isn’t multi threaded is a bit off. It’s up to the developer of the app. 
 

HQP also offloads to the GPU Cuda cores. 
 

 

Founder of Audiophile Style

Announcing The Audiophile Style Podcast

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, ted_b said:

Gurkel,

Welcome to AS.  I think the general tenor of this thread is that a server with rigorous power yet delicate balance puts out the best sound. 

 

Yes, and I also plan to build one, but before wasting money on stuff I don't need on the one side vs buying cheap parts I have to replace immediately I do some research - in boards like this one here. And after stumbling across these high power machines and the claims with the pure sound I started digging around.

 

Because I like computers and my job is to write programs/generate workflows for the data exchange between machines, I had a closer look at the data sent to the USB port by a network streamer and did some calculations.

 

So far I am sure there is no difference in the digital data of such a port. That's why I asked around if there is someone here with the required background knowledge to explain what's going on.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Gurkel said:

 

Well, it's more like you are driving around at 30 km/h and tell others you need 500 horsepower and bi turbo so you can accelerate to 32 km/h when you use a 20 core computer to run Tidal which (according to the webpage of tidal) requires 512MB RAM, win7 and a CPU sold 10 years ago.


You should know better than to use a company’s stated minimum requirements as anything other than a bare minimum that may not work well. But, in this case you’re talking about the Tidal app which nobody uses. 

Founder of Audiophile Style

Announcing The Audiophile Style Podcast

Link to post
Share on other sites

 Just build it, listen to it and be happy...or open your mind and listen to more options and THEN make up your mind which route to go for best Sound Quality. It's not that this bunch of folks likes to invest in hardware just for fun. I don't need a high power CPU for my system at all, yet a fact is that my music sounds much better when it's processed that way.

 

to use a car analogy, a good 4.2L V8 with 350 or so HP accelerates a lot different than a biturbo car with 350 HP...there is no substitute for cubic inches except more cubic inches

ISP, cat8.1, Zylix switch on LPS, Finisar <1321>Solarflare 8522, AMD 9, Aorus X570 Master, Corsair AX1200i, 16Gb Apacer Ram, Pink Faun I2S OCXO on LPS, home grown RJ45 I2S cable, Metrum Amethyst (modded to accept I2S), Klangfilm 204a, Klangfilm Trionor (3Tesla 835, JBL2402)

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Gurkel said:

 

Yes, and I also plan to build one, but before wasting money on stuff I don't need on the one side vs buying cheap parts I have to replace immediately I do some research - in boards like this one here. And after stumbling across these high power machines and the claims with the pure sound I started digging around.

 

Because I like computers and my job is to write programs/generate workflows for the data exchange between machines, I had a closer look at the data sent to the USB port by a network streamer and did some calculations.

 

So far I am sure there is no difference in the digital data of such a port. That's why I asked around if there is someone here with the required background knowledge to explain what's going on.

 

 


Sending PCM at 1,536 kHz to one of my Windows machines for USB output causes stuttering. Switching to a custom Linux build using NAA and the stuttering is gone. Same hardware, custom OS. 

Founder of Audiophile Style

Announcing The Audiophile Style Podcast

Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:


There isn’t a CPU currently made that can process DSD512 with EC modulators for playback without dropouts.

 

HQPlayer is the app. It can be coded to be multi threaded. You’re suggestion that resampling isn’t multi threaded is a bit off. It’s up to the developer of the app. 
 

HQP also offloads to the GPU Cuda cores. 
 

 

 

DSD512 is not relevant here, but I found someone here in the board who does upsampling to DSD256, and he is doing this on "They built me a custom fanless, 4 processor i5 computer that runs HQP with output at DSD256. Andrew is the owner and very helpful. Just tell him what are looking to do and your budget and he can advise you.", and another one with "so I finally landed to a passively cooled I5-8400 that is capable to do DSD256/ASDM7"

 

Above rock64 level but below the current cpus - no need for a super computer. And if you push the calculations to the GPU via Cuda, then a fast CPU is not required at all.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, MarcelNL said:

 Just build it, listen to it and be happy...or open your mind and listen to more options and THEN make up your mind which route to go for best Sound Quality. It's not that this bunch of folks likes to invest in hardware just for fun. I don't need a high power CPU for my system at all, yet a fact is that my music sounds much better when it's processed that way.

 

to use a car analogy, a good 4.2L V8 with 350 or so HP accelerates a lot different than a biturbo car with 350 HP...there is no substitute for cubic inches except more cubic inches

 

6 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

This thread is not about theory, it’s about building a diy server. Clearly you have no plans to follow what other users here have tried.

 

That's why I am asking, and at the same time I come up with my opinion/knowledge and would like to discuss this with someone who knows a bit about the technology used in a computer. 

 

We are talking about good  sound quality here - that's the goal - and how to achieve it. Beside asking around I am also doing my own research and learn some tjings. And I came to the conclusion that PCM (used for data transfer over USB) and DSD are both completly indendenat of any analog influences of the network streamer. As long as you don't run into a ground loop, the data stream cannot be changed by the PSU, by the USB cable or similar things.

 

And then I find this board here where people spend thousands of dollars/Euros on hardware, and I wondered if they did a research or just blindly follow ideas they don't understand.

 

Which brings me back to topic: Anyone here with the required knowledge who can explain the whole stuff? I am talking about PCM encoded analog signals and DSD signals.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, MarcelNL said:

@Gurkel I somehow believe we are miscommunicating here, the purpose of this thread is not to lowest grade CPU that can run something but finding the system that offers the best sound quality.

Please see my last response. Anyone here who understands PCM/DSD encoding?

 

If the signal a cheap DIY server pushes to the USB port is identical to what an expensive computer does, why should I buy the expensive one. I haven't heard of any case where someone found out he got different data when running a program on computer A than he got when running the same program on Computer B. Which is great, because otherwise computers would be useless.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw and will stay silent. wondering if you read anything in this thread and what you are listening to.

ISP, cat8.1, Zylix switch on LPS, Finisar <1321>Solarflare 8522, AMD 9, Aorus X570 Master, Corsair AX1200i, 16Gb Apacer Ram, Pink Faun I2S OCXO on LPS, home grown RJ45 I2S cable, Metrum Amethyst (modded to accept I2S), Klangfilm 204a, Klangfilm Trionor (3Tesla 835, JBL2402)

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Gurkel said:

 

Well, DSD512 is not relevant here, but I found someone here in the board who does upsampling to DSD256, and he is doing this on "They built me a custom fanless, 4 processor i5 computer that runs HQP with output at DSD256. Andrew is the owner and very helpful. Just tell him what are looking to do and your budget and he can advise you.", and another one with "so I finally landed to a passively cooled I5-8400 that is capable to do DSD256/ASDM7"

 

Well, above a rock64 but far away from a 20 core machine. And if you can use Cuda, then just buy a GTX1080 and you are settled.


Please take a step back. One person doesn’t speak for everyone. The post you quote talks about a server from Andrew at SGC. 
 

Many people would do DSD512 if they could. 
 

DSD256 is done by many people but there are variables that require more power such as convolution, different modulators, and more channels. 
 

I highly recommend learning the landscape of uses here before making yourself look less than learned. I’m sure you have some good information but so far it has been inaccurate. 

Founder of Audiophile Style

Announcing The Audiophile Style Podcast

Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Gurkel said:

And after stumbling across these high power machines and the claims with the pure sound I started digging around.

 

Welcome Swiss compatriot....however, deserter here, living in NewMexico...;-)

 

NO settled science, while this thread argues for high power, another very prominent member, Miska, the author of HQPlayer, afaik argues for separating server and "head" which is a as low power machine as possible, while doing the heavy lifting and up-sampling on a powerful and potentially noisy machine. Search for HQP and you get another view. I did not say the right, just another view with many legit arguments. But then again, the author of this thread, Nenon, has a highpower machine and does NOT do real-time up-sampling but up-samples files offline.

 

No such thing as "settled science"....new findings every day ....

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You personally should not purchase such a computer. All good?

 

doesn't answer the nagging question about the relation between the digital audio signal and the influence of analog signals on it (and the resulted sound quality)

 

But otherwise. If I don't do upsampling and try to generate data out of thin air, does your answer mean that the output the computer generates (and therfor the SQ) is independant of the chosen hardware?

 

So if I use an i5 to transform the raw audio data (FLAC, WAV,..) into the data format which goes to the USB port (PCM/DSD) and from there to the DAC/AMP, it's the same data an I7 or a pi4 generates? And same data means same Sound Quality generated by the DAC.

 

So as long as I don't do any heavy calculations in the middle I am fine with a pi?

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Gurkel said:

completly indendenat of any analog influences

Some people also in other threads would disagree. Phase noise can have an influence. Read stuff in EtherRegen threads and especially what John, the developer wrote in a white paper.

 

Nobody really knows is it all here....in my very humble opinion, very few but very very smart AND educated professionals here (who obviously disagree ;-)) and then the vast majority of followers (guilty as charged) with their own more or less valid opinions ...haha.....(not saying the followers are not smart just MUCH more biased.....the curse of audiophiles....

Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Gurkel said:

generate data out of thin air

As I understand and learned here, all(?) DAC upsample internally. I read that Chord Dave, a 10k DAC, uses less power if fed upsampled data. So as I understand, there is consnsus here for the reason that a powerful CPU can upsample much better than a feeble DAC. Better filers, noise shapers, more Taps, what have you

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/10/2020 at 11:53 PM, Nenon said:

 

 

I have 8 CPU cores / 16 threads on my server. You can rarely see any of them exceeding 1% CPU utilization and the frequency quite often goes over 4 Ghz and rarely under 3.5 Ghz (without explicitly configuring any CPU frequency settings). This is when the magic happens.

1983715012_ScreenShot2020-02-10at4_43_16PM.png.bae7c6f46f4f4ac19ad27f3bc4101289.png

 

BTW, since this a "Building a DIY Music Server" feel free to post some pictures of your build. 

 

Exactly this is the reason I am asking around. Another one was the TO post (page 1) where someone posted the hardware details for hie Tidal streamer.

 

 

And I found this Upscaling Mika machine which is powered by an 6950X. Did a quick comparison with mine, and even at stock speed (3.6 Ghz) the Intel is only 3% faster - which is ok but nothing special. But As I don't plan to generate data out of thin air, I don't require this.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Gurkel said:

But As I don't plan to generate data out of thin air, I don't require this.

If your server doesnt, your DAC will.

 

Dude, you only scratched the surface. Read on, people get obsessed with clocks and phase noise (frequency domain) or Jitter (time domain). You see Nenon soldering better clocks on this motherboard....

 

 

It is SO much more than brute power and nobody knows. But in the end, its your system, you can grind it and eat it :-D

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Gurkel Perhaps as suggested by others you could start a thread on the topic of your choice. There are many knowledgeable and friendly people here who might share their thoughts with you.

 

In the end though SQ is what is, subjective and individually experienced. No one can convince you theoretically or otherwise of what you hear or like for that matter , or what you will hear from any specific build.  Start with what makes theoretical sense to you (you will not be the first nor last one) , and take it from there or end it there!

 

As for me- curiosity, with the help of some keen eared people here (which I am very grateful for), has improved my digital music files enjoyment beyond expectation.

 

Happy journeys.

 

ATB

b.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Mops911 said:

As I understand and learned here, all(?) DAC upsample internally. I read Hugo Chord, a 10k DAC, uses less power if fed upsampled data. So as I understand, there is consnsus here for the reason that a powerful CPU can upsample much better than a feeble DAC. Better filers, noise shapers, more Taps, what have you

 

Only a side topic here. I don't do it, I am just interested in DIY server for streaming, so back to topic.

 

Page 1, first comment and TO of this thread:

 

 

 

Quote

 

Hi everyone! I am building a computer for someone else and decided to share what I am doing with everyone. 

 

Let me start with some of the high level requirements:

  • One box solution to eliminate some of the clutter.
  • Optimized for Streaming (Tidal / Qobuz).
  • The best quality USB output

 

  •  Intel Core i9-9900K
  •  
  •  
  •  
  • USB Output: PinkFaun USB Bridge with ultraOCXO clock

 

  •  

 

There we go again. My knwoledge tells me the PCM/DSD signal of an USB port is not influenced by an analog signal, and you don't need an i9-9900K to stream Tidal/Qobuz.

 

Who knows how PCM/DSD works?

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Mops911 said:

If your server doesnt, your DAC will.

 

Dude, you only scratched the surface. Read on, people get obsessed with clocks and phase noise (frequency domain) or Jitter (time domain). You see Nenon soldering better clocks on this motherboard....

 

 

It is SO much more than brute power and nobody knows. But in the end, its your system, you can grind it and eat it :-D

 

 

 

 

Leva that aside. If you send data over the internet, each data package has it's own CRC code attached, and if the packet fails the check it is transitted again (if you use TCP). No switch alters data, there is no data clenaisng of whatsoever analog side effects here. Pretty obvious but people buy it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

trolling alert

 

ISP, cat8.1, Zylix switch on LPS, Finisar <1321>Solarflare 8522, AMD 9, Aorus X570 Master, Corsair AX1200i, 16Gb Apacer Ram, Pink Faun I2S OCXO on LPS, home grown RJ45 I2S cable, Metrum Amethyst (modded to accept I2S), Klangfilm 204a, Klangfilm Trionor (3Tesla 835, JBL2402)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×
×
  • Create New...