Building a DIY Music Server

[RickyV]

25 minutes ago, Exocer said:

Ideally:

 

Taiko DC-ATX + DC4 vs Optimo ATX

Taiko DC-ATX + PHSR7T vs Optimo ATX

Taiko DC-ATX + Nenon's Unregulated Linear Power Supply vs Optimo ATX

 

I have the Taiko DC-ATX in hand and will try the with19v 10A rated rail of my SR7T soon to power my i9 server (not sure if it can handle the load but still worth a shot, as I do not overclock).

 

Edit: @Nenon that PSU is a work of art. Well done.

Looking forward to your tests.

Imo the idea is not to restrict the delivery of current to the mobo so the DC4 or the PHSR7T will restrict the current demand in transient and amount. That’s where the unregulated supply comes in, less restrictive in high current spikes demands.
Keep experimenting

 

[Exocer]

50 minutes ago, RickyV said:

Looking forward to your tests.

 

To clarify:

 

I can only test single 19v in vs 12v to EPS + 19v to DC-ATX  and both compared to the unregulated supply once it is built ( to be tested on a single core i9 9900k based machine).

 

The list below was in response to @Marcin_gps's question.

 

50 minutes ago, RickyV said:

Ideally:

 

Taiko DC-ATX + DC4 vs Optimo ATX

Taiko DC-ATX + PHSR7T vs Optimo ATX

Taiko DC-ATX + Nenon's Unregulated Linear Power Supply vs Optimo ATX

 

I have the Taiko DC-ATX in hand and will try the with19v 10A rated rail of my SR7T soon to power my i9 server (not sure if it can handle the load but still worth a shot, as I do not overclock).

 

Edit: @Nenon that PSU is a work of art. Well done.

 

At this point, I do think the Taiko DC-ATX is a no brainer purchase even for those with single core setups and good LPSUs such as the ones mentioned above.

[MarcelNL]

As much as I don't mind spending money on quality of things that matter in life at a price point of 1200 euro or so this ATX is not a no brainer to me, some way to audition it would be nice.

[Exocer]

33 minutes ago, MarcelNL said:

As much as I don't mind spending money on quality of things that matter in life at a price point of 1200 euro or so this ATX is not a no brainer to me, some way to audition it would be nice

Absolutely. It would be great to try first then buy if the value proposition is right. I would invite you over for an audition but I am NYC based 😁. The improvement in my system has been worth the price, having purchased more expensive amps/preamps/dacs etc. 

 

Again, my situation is unorthodox as I have no cards externally powered via LPSU (most people here do) so perhaps the difference in my system is far greater than those with DC4s/DC3 or other high quality LPSU powering their network card/usb card.

 

I will get around to testing that in the future if there is interest in doing so.

[MarcelNL]

Living in the Netherlands where Taiko is based there ought to be ways to audition this PSU without travelling 8 hours ;-) (I used to frequent NYC and NJ a lot until this pandemic came around, so I would have taken you up on that offer)

 

Driving up to Taiko for a listen or loaning a unit is perfectly fine with me (or at whatever distributor they select should the busy work involved with serving us DIY crowd be too much of a burden, which I'd understand)

 

 

 

[MarcelNL]

BTW, I would strongly suggest to test powering cards and SSD externally where possible...I recently added a nice LPS for my SSD and was shocked about the difference it made (about as much as powering it externally with a switching PSU)

[OAudio]

6 hours ago, Nenon said:

The power supply that I built for @dminches was the game changer for him. I had a similar power supply powering my dual CPU server before switching to the Taiko ATX. And here is the truth about linear power supplies: they work amazingly good for low current applications. But when you get to high current draws like the dual Xeon CPUs in the Extreme, regulated LPS is not the best technology to use. I would use and recommend the Taiko ATX with the unregulated LPS for the dual CPU project. In fact I would put this against any regulated LPS, no matter the price, including the high current DC4 I built for @dminches. I compared the two in my system and had a hard time deciding. But the Taiko ATX + unregulated LPS for the dual Xeon project sounded more transparent.  And that is an important part of voicing the server. 

 

 

@Nenon, All,

 

I really would not want this pass into forum folk law, without putting an alternate view and note of caution forward. I think using higher current headroom as key parameter to select a power supply is akin to using amplifier wattage alone to compare sound quality of power amplifiers. It might not be a very good idea. Here is some of what I found designing supplies for c621 servers and why I say this.  

 

Important to remember first that there isn't anything mystical about c621 boards, they are just incrementally slightly larger then previous Xeon architectures. Threads on other web sites make it sound complex but they are just computer PCBs. These boards have finite and quantifiable load requirements. Provided that a supply be it linear or buck or any other type fully meets these the current load requirements of its rails the supplies current capacity head room can be as little as 1 amp and the board will not be bothered, and sound quality will be fine. A reasonable margin of current headroom is good thing as confidence factor but I have run dual core c621s at with 10 amp rated EPS supply designs and the sound has been spell binding. What really matters is on how the supply for the board performs in other more critical areas. 

 

So what matters for sound quality ? Based on developing and testing these supplies (background given below) the following: 

 

• 1 amp headroom above maximum motherboard rail's peak transient load level - kidding... a few amps for safety is a better idea :-)
• Transient response fast enough across the supply bandwidth required by motherboard with critically damped recovery.
• Stable feed back loop with phase margin to ensure stability when supplying into high di/dt and inductive loading.
• Good supply error feedback loop immunity to HF noise entering the supply from the PCs rail.
• Very good load regulation performance.
• Adequate PSRR.
• Very low ripple + noise. 

(I posted a few sensible figures in earlier post in the thread that people should look out for in the cases they are published by power supply manufactures)

 

 

 

As background to the above.

 

I designed and developed an advanced server supply system over the last few years. The power system was built as a technology test bed and development platform. It was designed specifically for flexibility to incorporate linear, switched buck and unregulated technology into the servers power system in any combination in order to look for optimum power arrangements. The aim was to test supply technology and topologies to makes choices based on experimentation and performance. For the last 3 years focus has been exclusively on how to supply single and dual core c621 based servers with up to CPU 20 cores per socket. So the "high current" types of system. The power system is a micro processor controlled and is "plug and play" so different designed linear power PCBs, third party DC-DC ATXs and unregulated choke supplies and "audiophile" grade SMTP supplies can be used in combination to supply the 3v, 5v, 5vSB, 12v ATX and 12V EPS rails of a c621 mother board.

 

With all of this work and the ability to select any of the supply technologies above in the final version of the server supply, what does the finished fully developed c621 supply system us ? There was absolutely not question what so ever, for sound quality, very high performance linear supplies (same for single and dual processor c621 systems). I need to add a proviso that the direct to board linear everywhere approach was very hard to perfect with the sound quality performance level I was aiming for. This in mind I accept and am not at all surprised when I read reports that linear everywhere results might not tally in other systems.

 

OAudio.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

 

 

       

 

      

[matthias]

There are two great posts from Taiko Audio about the topic LPS vs. SMPS:

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-276#post-696870

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-277#post-696871

 

Matt

[matthias]

.......and a short remark from Taiko Audio whether to go regulated or unregulated into the Taiko ATX:

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-278#post-697117

 

Matt

[OAudio]

2 hours ago, matthias said:

There are two great posts from Taiko Audio about the topic LPS vs. SMPS:

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-276#post-696870

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-277#post-696871

 

Matt

 

Hi Matt,

 

I am defiantly familiar with these two posts, I spotted them some time ago and to be honest they contributed to why I said this.

  

9 hours ago, OAudio said:

Important to remember first that there isn't anything mystical about c621 boards, they are just incrementally slightly larger then previous Xeon architectures. Threads on other web sites make it sound complex but they are just computer PCBs. These boards have finite and quantifiable load requirements.

 

There are some interesting points made in these two links but there a few tangents and assumptions that appear to be there, in order to make the argument that linear supplies can not supply the current levels needed by a music server without descending into mush :-).

 

This explanation is lifted below for instance which is just a nonsense argument. The math is correct, but no one would be stupid enough to apply a linear supply technology to supply 100 watts at CPU core voltage of 1volts ! Its irrelevant to any real world power solution for a music server (certainly one based on any commercially available motherboard). Nobody will every [be able to] try this for a simple reason. Motherboards have and will "always" use buck technology to step down their external supply rail voltages to the high current low voltages supplied that enable high frequency power efficient chip designs. They are required to meet industry efficiency standards and the drive in data centres to reduce power consumption puts further competitive pressure on motherboard, chipset and processors designs to do this. However the point and all the numbers quoted are then used to underline a notion that linear supplies simply cannot meet the high current demands and perform to the specifications needed for class leading sound quality. Just not the case.....

 

"As an extreme example, let's look at powering a CPU. A CPU typically operates at 0.6-1.2 volts but can easily draw 100 watts or more, let's assume 1 volt for easier calculations. For 100 watts at 1V you are talking about 100 Amps(!) of current. As current drops voltage over resistance (Ohm's law), a CPU is typically supplied with a 12V voltage rail, so we need to regulate 12V down to 1V. If you would use linear regulation, and you'd have a 100 Amp current draw at 1V, you would also have a 100 Amp current draw at 12V (simplified), meaning 12V*100A=1200 watts. Then we need to feed this 12V by a 16-19V supply (again to account for voltage drop caused by current over resistance), let's assume 19V as that's a very common value to ensure broad compatibility, and we are talking 19V*100A=a shocking 1900 watts. The conversion efficiency here would be ~5%, the other 95% will just be converted to heat. A switch mode regulator is the inverse of this, it can regulate 19V down to 1V at a 95% efficiency wasting only 5% as heat. That is a 1900W versus 105W of power consumption."

 

Buck and linear designs both have their challenges. They need engineered solutions to manage their respective design hot spots but for my these two posts far too quickly quickly adopt the message linear + high current = guaranteed noise and buck can perform better despite their many many challenges. 

 

Put and H probe anywhere near any DC ATX and it just sings with emissions. Even more relevant put a scope or analyser on its output and look at the characteristic of the switching noise breakthrough. Both these tests should really be done in a meaning full way, by which I mean whilst driving the intended load, a mother board's power rails. These spit back wide band RF and transients into the supply in question. Its really down to how a supply of any technology behaves under this condition (not necessarily in to a constant bench load) that will determine what the sound quality will be.  

 

I wanted to link another post, but just could not find the particular post in the long thread. In it linear and buck conversion are again being compared in the same vain. Some FFTs are posted for an example buck supply and linear supply. The buck predictably looks like it performs well al least under constant load and this is attributed in part to an unusually high frequency switch loop in the design (I am familiar with the device I think is being used which switches around 2MHz). The FFT of the linear supply that is provided in the post is however dreadful. I would hang my head in shame if a linear with that spectral content were being used in a supply here in the modules I make and these will supply 24 amps per rail and give the electrical characteristics I have mentioned in earlier posts in this thread.

 

The point is for me is that the posts maybe not be intentionally loaded to paint buck technology as the logic conclusion to the design decisions that have to be made, but I cannot follow the arguments and logic stated and accept that linear supplies are an inferior choice. I have some direct experience but to those that don't it all looks and sounds very complicated and credible. 

 

OAudio

    

 

[matthias]

@OAudio

Thanks for your post.

 

IMHO, the Taiko DC-ATX is a much superior design and can not be compared to standard DC-ATX.

The proof is in the listening, that is what @Nenon did, comparing it to one of the best LPS (if not the best).

 

Matt

[Marcin_gps]

9 minutes ago, matthias said:

@OAudio

Thanks for your post.

 

IMHO, the Taiko DC-ATX is a much superior design and can not be compared to standard DC-ATX.

The proof is in the listening, that is what @Nenon did, comparing it to one of the best LPS (if not the best).

 

Matt

Matt, are there any technical specifications or measurements to back up the superiority of Taiko DC-ATX? I'm sure this would be of interest to averyone in this thread and potential buyers. 

 

Regards, 

Marcin

[Marcin_gps]

@Nenon has a great experience, I have zero doubts about this. But the fact that he got the Taiko USB card as a non-SGM Extreme owner should ring a bell. As you all probably know, the Taiko USB Card is not available to purchase for anyone but Taiko SGM Extreme owners. I trust that this special treatment did not impact his objective opininion about the Taiko DC-ATX, but I'd like to see more reviews and comparisons before calling Taiko DC-ATX superior to all products on the martket. 

 

Full disclosure:@Nenonbought many products from me. I have no intention to doubt him. But l'd recommend waiting for more user reviews before calling Taiko DC-ATX the best. I would like to see a comparison to my upcoming OPTIMO ATX. 

 

Best regards,
Marcin 

 

 

[matthias]

6 minutes ago, Marcin_gps said:

@Nenon has a great experience, I have zero doubts about this. But the fact that he got the Taiko USB card as a non-SGM Extreme owner should ring a bell.

 

He got this card as loaner for testing from a friend who is an Extreme owner.

 

Matt

[Marcin_gps]

1 minute ago, matthias said:

 

He got this card as loaner for testing from a friend who is an Extreme owner.

 

Matt

OK, fair enough. 

[OAudio]

Matt hi,

 

Perhaps I should offer some additional information that might help understand why I have a least a little confidence that a linear everywhere to the motherboard supply system of the right performance level can defiantly hold its own. Before the lock down my server with its power system was in a very high end audio system for some fun back to back comparison with a Taiko extreme and another leading server. Using this as a reference point I am reasonably sure that unless the Taiko DC-ATX generates sound quality of a standard greater than their premium extreme server product, that full linear to the motherboard supplies of the correct standard will compare favourably with the new ATX.

 

I am honestly open about this however and you never absolutely "know" until you can get both in the same system and setup.

 

Regards,

     

[ASRMichael]

24 minutes ago, Marcin_gps said:

Matt, are there any technical specifications or measurements to back up the superiority of Taiko DC-ATX? I'm sure this would be of interest to averyone in this thread and potential buyers. 

 

Regards, 

Marcin

Don’t bother. 

 

11 minutes ago, Marcin_gps said:

@Nenon has a great experience, I have zero doubts about this. But the fact that he got the Taiko USB card as a non-SGM Extreme owner should ring a bell. As you all probably know, the Taiko USB Card is not available to purchase for anyone but Taiko SGM Extreme owners. I trust that this special treatment did not impact his objective opininion about the Taiko DC-ATX, but I'd like to see more reviews and comparisons before calling Taiko DC-ATX superior to all products on the martket. 

 

Full disclosure:@Nenonbought many products from me. I have no intention to doubt him. But l'd recommend waiting for more user reviews before calling Taiko DC-ATX the best. I would like to see a comparison to my upcoming OPTIMO ATX. 

 

Best regards,
Marcin 

 

 

Nenon had the ATX way before the USB card. Also few posts above Nenon explains his friend purchased for him. So I don’t believe there’s a biased view. 

[dminches]

24 minutes ago, Marcin_gps said:

@Nenon has a great experience, I have zero doubts about this. But the fact that he got the Taiko USB card as a non-SGM Extreme owner should ring a bell. As you all probably know, the Taiko USB Card is not available to purchase for anyone but Taiko SGM Extreme owners. I trust that this special treatment did not impact his objective opininion about the Taiko DC-ATX, but I'd like to see more reviews and comparisons before calling Taiko DC-ATX superior to all products on the martket. 

 

Full disclosure:@Nenonbought many products from me. I have no intention to doubt him. But l'd recommend waiting for more user reviews before calling Taiko DC-ATX the best. I would like to see a comparison to my upcoming OPTIMO ATX. 

 

Best regards,
Marcin 

 

 

 

I should like Nenon speak for himself but he did not buy nor can he buy a Taiko USB card.  His local friend has an Extreme and bought one for his Extreme and let Nenon borrow it to listen to it and burn it in.  I also think he has been very open about his industry affiliations.  Finally, Nenon has also always been honest about his review of products.

 

[Marcin_gps]

I'd like to believe he's doing this purely as an enthusiast. But the fact that the Taiko DC-ATX order form is not available on Taiko website nor in the official Taiko sticky thread on whatsbestforum and was first posted here by @Nenon does not make him objective and this can't be debated. 

 

 

[dminches]

On 1/13/2021 Nenon posted on this forum:

 

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I suppose then, neither could the comments from a competitor be considered objective. 

[NanoSword]

Nenon mention that Taiko DC-ATX is suitable for high CPU like 105TDP or above maybe the OPTIMO ATX will be competitive with 95 TDP or less .

 

 

 

 

[bit01]

@Marcin_gps- Do you please have a target price for this OPTIMO ATX ?

 

Thanks.

b.

[MarcelNL]

39 minutes ago, Marcin_gps said:

I'd like to believe he's doing this purely as an enthusiast. But the fact that the Taiko DC-ATX order form is not available on Taiko website nor in the official Taiko sticky thread on whatsbestforum and was first posted here by @Nenon does not make him objective and this can't be debated. 

 

 

I don't think anyone is objective, I have however a hard time buying the suggestion hidden in this comment. @Nenon has been completely transparent about his affiliation and initiative and is also transparent when he cannot share certain information. I'm  not  buddies with him, nor am I objective either ;-)

 

 

edit: nenon shared the PRE order form, just to capture interest. Neither is WBF a 'DIY rich' place IMO, there is little point selling an ATX to folks owning an Extreme.

 

 

 

 

[Marcin_gps]

7 minutes ago, bit01 said:

@Marcin_gps- Do you please have a target price for this OPTIMO ATX ?

 

Thanks.

b.

4000-5000 EUR