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42 minutes ago, Superdad said:


I would not bother with any of those C-W clocks you linked to.  Phase-performance of those is far worse than a good 

Crystek $10 XO.  
All you get with a $58 OCXO (besides a current-hog for the oven and a huge footprint) is a bit of frequency stability—something which matters not at all in the application.  To get decent low phase noise from an OCXO you either have to pay $350+ (and that’s at 200+ quantity) or scavenge particular clocks off of retiring 4G cell tower boards (that’s what the Chinese ham guy BG7TBL does; in fact the -125dBc/Hz at 10Hz offset 10MHz units he offers for $90 in a box are a steal).

 

Thank you @Superdad. The BG7TBL does provide an audible improvement in my system feeding the ER, itself powered by the LPS 1.2 @ 12v. Mine came with the FE-180 and not the DAPU.

 

For switches which are not ready to accept reference 10mhz clock input (the Buffalo in this case) something like the CW would seem like an improvement over the stock clocks although I do not know the specs of the included clocks.

 

I'm guessing Crystek or SiTime clocks are the only worthwhile replacements. Aside from the Uber expensive PF clock, and CW clocks, options appear to be a bit slim.

 

It would be nice to use the extra two outputs on my BG7TBL for something 😁.

 

Edit: @tgb you may be interested in this info as well.

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Neutron Star 3 reference clock incl. 230V Low Noise Power Supply (Class 2) and Cables 25.000000 MHz
Neutron Star 3 reference clock incl. Cables 25.000000 MHz
https://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=200

 

Neutrino 2 Reference Clock incl. cables 25.000000 MHz

https://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=168&hv=1

 

Network Switch Upgrade

https://www.fidelityaudio.co.uk/network-switch-upgrade-4616-p.asp

 

Clocks - Precision Low Jitter

https://www.fidelityaudio.co.uk/clocks---precision-low-jitter-143-c.asp

 

Definitely check with them and make sure that's compatible with BS-GS2016 first, the key word here should be LVCMOS.

 


 

Neutron Star seemed to be a viable replacement according to several members here, though that would be 24 MHz for USB instead of 25 MHz for Ethernet

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/22187-uptone-audio-regen/page/85/?tab=comments#comment-442146

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/24749-uptone-audio-regen-clock-mod/

 

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1 hour ago, Superdad said:


I would not bother with any of those C-W clocks you linked to.  Phase-performance of those is far worse than a good 

Crystek $10 XO.  
All you get with a $58 OCXO (besides a current-hog for the oven and a huge footprint) is a bit of frequency stability—something which matters not at all in the application.  To get decent low phase noise from an OCXO you either have to pay $350+ (and that’s at 200+ quantity) or scavenge particular clocks off of retiring 4G cell tower boards (that’s what the Chinese ham guy BG7TBL does; in fact the -125dBc/Hz at 10Hz offset 10MHz units he offers for $90 in a box are a steal).

 

Its good to hear from industry expert.

I got many of the Uptone products. Fantastic value for the mony .

Could you please be so kind to light up our view a little why do we see so gigantic experience by installing Pink Faun Ultra clocks in Buffalo ?

Which level is that clock in terms of the AUDIO performance in your opinion and if there are any better options?

Also in the price no object case.

Thanks Alex

Best

K

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

The SiTime MEMS oscillators do not offer very low phase-noise performance at all.  Even the SiT5711 favored by some (probably for its 3.3V input, small footprint, programmability, and fancy gold color) is only -109dBc/Hz (at 10Hz offset for 10MHz unit).

For comparison the $10 25MHz Crystek 575s we use are running about -108 to -112. Compensating for the 2.5 octave difference that -110dBc/Hz average equates to about -119 if that 25MHz Crystek was a 10MHz clock.

So why pay $150 for just unneeded long-term frequency stability. For these applications it does not matter at all if the frequency drifts a tiny bit over time!  

The ruggedness of the SiT5711 is something we will give it.  As a MEMS device it will perform better in a vibrational environment that most crystal-based clocks.  But still not low phase-noise...

 

 

Well what frequencies are you looking for?  There are (from Crystek, NDK, and a couple of others), some very low-phase noise XOs under $100. But finding stock for 24.0MHz and 25.0MHz is not easy (whereas the audio-related rates of 22.5792MHz and 24.576MHz and x2 those are readily available). But those will not get you into the -125dBc/Hz to -140dBc/Hz (@10Hz for a 10MHz) that a fine SC cut OCXO will.  But there you are looking at $375-$875 per piece...9_9

And again, don't look to Connor Windfield for those (C-W is in the -90 to -100 range at best).

 

Spend some time at Dove and your head will spin: https://www.doveonline.com

 

Here is a nice clock:

https://www.taitien.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/XO-0136_NJ-10M-6800_series.pdf

-135 at 10Hz is a nice place to start!  But don't ask the price or lead time...

Or really go for it with one of these:

http://magicxtal.com/products/?S=20&C=36&I=82

-120 at 1Hz!, -144 at 10Hz.  Those are $1,200 each if you order five pieces...x-D

 

Indeed.  But not without a really good programmable synthesizer to make the frequencies you want...

Very informative post! Thank you.

 

Taking a moment to process it all...

 

As for frequencies, we are interested in 25mhz LVCMOS output in this context. It would be great if it were at least possible to equal the (supposed, and unmeasured) -125dbc/hz of my reference clock.

 

As for programmable synthesizers, I would not know where to begin with this approach but it does sound intriguing to research further.

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I ask John Swenson yesterday if he knew of any easy to use modules that could synthesizers 25Mhz or 24Mhz from a 10Mhz clock but he didn’t know of any, that is of cause for people like us that are not electronics wizards.

Meitner ma1 v2 dac,  Sovereign preamp and power amp,

DIY speakers with scan speak illuminator drivers.

Under development:

NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus

Modded Buffalo-fiber-EtherRegen, DC3- Isoregen, Lush^2

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18 hours ago, Exocer said:

Very informative post! Thank you.

 

Taking a moment to process it all...

 

As for frequencies, we are interested in 25mhz LVCMOS output in this context. It would be great if it were at least possible to equal the (supposed, and unmeasured) -125dbc/hz of my reference clock.

 

As for programmable synthesizers, I would not know where to begin with this approach but it does sound intriguing to research further.

Andrea Mori at diyaudio have developed them the last 15 years, but still it looks like, that I am the only one, there is interested in his 25MHz or 6.25MHz crystal GB with his new clockboards and I don’t understand why and the price isn`t near PinkFaun, but maybe the crystal and clockboards are... Sorry, it is frustrating.     ;0)

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16 minutes ago, basillus said:

Andrea Mori at diyaudio have developed them the last 15 years, but still it looks like, that I am the only one, there is interested in his 25MHz or 6.25MHz crystal GB with his new clockboards and I don’t understand why and the price isn`t near PinkFaun, but maybe the crystal and clockboards are... Sorry, it is frustrating.     ;0)

 

It would be great if you (or Andrea) could provide some datasheets with specs. Is there a URL? Phase noise specs at 10MHZ appears to be one of the defacto specs which would interest us, also, frequency stability.

 

Perhaps that will allow some of the industry pros (and those of us learning) to weigh in on performance and increase interest level :).

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1 hour ago, Exocer said:

 

It would be great if you (or Andrea) could provide some datasheets with specs. Is there a URL? Phase noise specs at 10MHZ appears to be one of the defacto specs which would interest us, also, frequency stability.

 

Perhaps that will allow some of the industry pros (and those of us learning) to weigh in on performance and increase interest level :).

It`s a long thread, but here are a couple of links, but there are many other “test” in his threads. 

Andrea does it in his sparetime and is a hobbyist.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/261651-tempered-master-clock-building-low-phase-noise-jitter-crystal-oscillator-post6360033.html

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/261651-tempered-master-clock-building-low-phase-noise-jitter-crystal-oscillator-post6368700.html

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/261651-tempered-master-clock-building-low-phase-noise-jitter-crystal-oscillator-post6345475.html

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1 hour ago, basillus said:

The specs do look very good per my untrained eye. @ around 10hz they are all at least -120dbc/hz at 10Hz. Any info on the form factor?

 

Edit: I see the photos of the form factor. This could be an interesting alternative. Will do some further digging on the thread for pricing info etc.

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1 hour ago, Exocer said:

The specs do look very good per my untrained eye. @ around 10hz they are all at least -120dbc/hz at 10Hz. Any info on the form factor?

 

Edit: I see the photos of the form factor. This could be an interesting alternative. Will do some further digging on the thread for pricing info etc.

The final prices, BOM etc. are coming soon. The Group buy had running a while, the problem is that no one have yet ordered a 25MHz or 6.25 crystal and the minimum order is 10 or 15. 

The latest prices were:

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/291925-tempered-master-clock-buy-post6255266.html

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There were some posts on another thread where the Schröder Method was mentioned

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/page/665/?tab=comments#comment-1058990

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/page/702/?tab=comments#comment-1084944

 

Now that we've got dual switches (or more) in series, dual regulators in series, as well as dual Xeon to dedicate a specific (physical) processor for HQP and NAA respectively, what if we're able to get dual DACs to synchronize? NOT talking about a dual-mono design with a pair of DAC chips here, I really do mean playing two "Schröderized" lossless files (will be explained below) on the same dual-Xeon music server followed by two separate units of DAC.

 

We're starting with a single lossless (i.e. in stereo / 2.0) first, and then ending up two separate mono / 1.0 lossless files

 

https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/AudioChannelManipulation

QBvEePF.png

 

After that, each mono file will be "Schröderized" separately. 1st DAC will receive 2X the left-channel and then both RCA / XLR outputs will be connected to left-channel input of the amplifier. Similarly, 2nd DAC will receive 2X the right-channel and then both RCA / XLR outputs will be connected to right-channel input of the amplifier. I guess that maybe monoblocks could reap even more benefits?

 

For 1st DAC → qC1k528.png 

 

qC1k528.png ← For 2nd DAC

 

Of course the $64,000 question is whether the ASIO driver could handle 2 identical units of DAC on the same instance of Windows 10 or otherwise. This particular one could even handle 3 units

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/14657-first-multi-channel-dsd-playback-solution-with-mytek/

 

With the right cables maybe we could even go for double-stacking a pair of identical amplifiers?

 

NLcCQMpl.jpg

NLcCQMpl.jpg

 

A similar but fairly different concept

 

7SEFgTXl.jpg

 

Essentially we should be aiming for stuff like a "dual-stereo" setup of some sort, though here's a genuine dual-mono DAC (Esoteric Grandioso D1X) just for reference

5nBd64Fl.jpg

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14 hours ago, basillus said:

 

 

The final prices, BOM etc. are coming soon. The Group buy had running a while, the problem is that no one have yet ordered a 25MHz or 6.25 crystal and the minimum order is 10 or 15. 

The latest prices were:

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/291925-tempered-master-clock-buy-post6255266.html

If you want for example Pierce AOI oscillator with 6.25 MHz crystal then why don't you add yourself to the group buy interest list, I dont see your nickname in the list? If you do that it would increase the chance that others follow. Its is not committing to buy anything at this point, just an interest list. I see 2 people (including me) that sofar added themselves to the list for 6.00 MHz and Pierce AOI (giving 24 MHz output). I will need the 24 MHz for usb communication.  

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7 hours ago, realDHT said:

If you want for example Pierce AOI oscillator with 6.25 MHz crystal then why don't you add yourself to the group buy interest list, I dont see your nickname in the list? If you do that it would increase the chance that others follow. Its is not committing to buy anything at this point, just an interest list. I see 2 people (including me) that sofar added themselves to the list for 6.00 MHz and Pierce AOI (giving 24 MHz output). I will need the 24 MHz for usb communication.  


Thanks. You are right and I will do as you suggest. The reason I had not already done so is that I thought that it was more than a interest list and there were some sort of binding. 

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Seeteeyou  You have read my mind 😉, because to combine the Schröder Method with the diy helix have been on my to do list for a long time based on a 2 bare mundorf silver-gold wire each in their own silk tube with 2 carbon roving 50k filaments sprayed with a diy graphene solution there enclosed the wire and to keep the graphene encapsulated a shrinkable ptfe tube or ptfe tape around the silk tube and then twist the 2 wire together. Maybe a JSSG screen around it, wooden beads and use 2 Jantzen ptfe wire(I live in EU) as neutral and/or gnd. I also thought of to use it in a computer as dc cable. 

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1 hour ago, ASRMichael said:

Is there any risk of using the Schröder Method on RCA’s? As in potential damge to amp or DAC? Just want to make sure before I try it? 

 

In the beginning Douglas Schröder warned about to use his metode to class d amplifiers, but later I haven’t see that class d should be a problem with his metode. There could maybe be a problem if the preamplifier output and the amplifiers input impedans have a big mismatch. If not I don’t think there is a potential risk to use his metode...

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1 hour ago, Nenon said:

 

- Using Schroder on HFC cables is a no brainer. It works very well. Highly recommended. 

 

 

Very true. In fact, I have had multiple queries from folks asking if I would break up the Schroeder HFC CT-2 digital cables I have for sale, and sell them individual CT-2 cables. I suspect I would actually make more on the sales this way!

 

But I really want people to hear just how good this Schroeder config can sound. And @Nenon is spot on regarding connectors.

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6 hours ago, Nenon said:

- Using Schroder on HFC cables is a no brainer. It works very well. Highly recommended.

 

HF/RF cables and connectors should have exactly 75 Ohms impedance (or 110 Ohms for AES/EBU). Why? Because of 'return loss'. The best digital audio connections have a return loss of less than -30dB from 100 kHz, up to 100 MHz - incredibly difficult to achieve.

 

By parallelling a digital audio cable, you're changing its impedance and likely increasing the return loss. Not a good idea.

 

I think generally the 'digital audio guys' could learn a lot from the 'RF guys' who really know about this stuff. (I'm far from either by the way, but have had some dealings in the past with a quite vocal 'RF guy'.)

 

Mani.

Phasure Mach III audio PC -> HQPlayer/XXHighEnd @24/705.6 -> Phasure NOS1 DAC -> First Watt F5-cloned mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horn speakers

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Just to be clear - I was referring to analog interconnects, not digital cables. I should have clarified that in my post. 

In that application paralleling two sets of HFC Pro RCA cables was better than running just one set.

 

Never tried that with digital cables, where it is indeed quite important to have the right impedance. I believe Rajiv, Roy, and a few other people prefered parallel HFC cables as digital cables too, but that's not something I have tried. I think Mani makes a good point, though. 

Affiliated with Sean Jacobs

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Hello,

 

I would like to ask for your kind advice, which scenario would be the best solution for me in case of building a music server/control PC (as Roon Core).

 

System:

The dac to be used is an Ayre QX-5 Twenty (via USB input), which synergize well with my endpoint SOtM SMS-200ultra (with SPS-500).

According to one of our very knowledgeable forum members (who knows both products very well), the Ayre QX-5 Twenty is not a DAC that can be transformed by HQPlayer (with heavy PCM to DSD conversion). Therefore only PCM upsampling is needed to 352/384 kHz, so heavy computing power is not really necessary.

OS would be Audiolinux (with Roon Core + HQPlayer, if needed) or Roon Rock.

 

1st scenario

Cirrus7 fanless case with NUC 7i7DNBE

PSU: I would allocate my existing SOtM SPS-500 for this purpose (and my SMS-200ultra would get a new PSU, e.g. Farad Super3 12v)

 

2nd scenario

HDPlex H3

Intel i7-8700K (or similar Intel i7)

PSU: Keces P8 (and my SMS-200 ultra would remain with SPS-500)

 

For the sake of simplicity (especially for PSU), I am leaning toward the NUC scenario, but the 2nd scenario would add higher flexibility (for future upgrades) and CPU power is higher.

 

Thank you very much for your advice(s) in advance.

 

Regards,

Csaba

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14 minutes ago, Csaba said:

Hello,

 

I would like to ask for your kind advice, which scenario would be the best solution for me in case of building a music server/control PC (as Roon Core).

 

System:

The dac to be used is an Ayre QX-5 Twenty (via USB input), which synergize well with my endpoint SOtM SMS-200ultra (with SPS-500).

According to one of our very knowledgeable forum members (who knows both products very well), the Ayre QX-5 Twenty is not a DAC that can be transformed by HQPlayer (with heavy PCM to DSD conversion). Therefore only PCM upsampling is needed to 352/384 kHz, so heavy computing power is not really necessary.

OS would be Audiolinux (with Roon Core + HQPlayer, if needed) or Roon Rock.

 

1st scenario

Cirrus7 fanless case with NUC 7i7DNBE

PSU: I would allocate my existing SOtM SPS-500 for this purpose (and my SMS-200ultra would get a new PSU, e.g. Farad Super3 12v)

 

2nd scenario

HDPlex H3

Intel i7-8700K (or similar Intel i7)

PSU: Keces P8 (and my SMS-200 ultra would remain with SPS-500)

 

For the sake of simplicity (especially for PSU), I am leaning toward the NUC scenario, but the 2nd scenario would add higher flexibility (for future upgrades) and CPU power is higher.

 

Thank you very much for your advice(s) in advance.

 

Regards,

Csaba

I would build whatever gives me more flexibility for the future. If you aren't planning on doing DSD, no need for HQP or especially high power. You can do any upsampling in Rock, anyway.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +_iFi  AC iPurifiers >Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Conditioning+Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Listening: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Matrix Element i Streamer/DAC (XLR)+Schiit Freya>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: RPi 3B+ running RoPieee to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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