Building a DIY Music Server

[Exocer]

 

9 hours ago, Downtheline said:

Akasa NUC7i7DNH1E with crucial 8gb DDR4 ram, Gentooplayer, Keces 20v 8amp, matrix X SPDIF-2, Keces P3. Ghent dc cables, USB cable and HDMI cable: wireworld starlight 7

 

Thanks @Downtheline.

 

Curious as to what lead you to go the C621/Xeon Scalable CPU route versus the Z390-Z490/i9 route for a single CPU build.

 

Was it the extra PCI-E lanes?

Is it superior in terms of SQ for those who have no interest in upsampling? (compared to similarly spec'd I7/I9 builds)

 

Asking for a friend who is interested in taking their system to the next level (me).

 

Thanks,

-Rob

[Downtheline]

 

34 minutes ago, Exocer said:

Curious as to what lead you to go the C621/Xeon Scalable CPU route

 

I wanted the ability to use the pink faun I2s bridge, this ruled out the i9 route. I then wanted ECC RAM.  Then there were reports of good sound quality with 10 core cpu in the taiko whatsbest forum. This had the lowest TDP of the 10 core processors. 

 

Lastly cuz I needed a good challenge. 

[Downtheline]

also, I wanted an integrated GPU, the AMD CPUs don't have those.

[Exocer]

5 hours ago, Downtheline said:

also, I wanted an integrated GPU, the AMD CPUs don't have those.

You have motivated me to try this path with my next build

 

[Downtheline]

5 minutes ago, Exocer said:

my next build

Very cool! Let me know how I can help, especially with the cooling mods. 

[Nenon]

I had two Intel 665p M.2 2TB PCIe NVMe cards in an Asus Hyper PCIe card configured as VROC RAID0. They were installed on my Asus Sage dual Xeon build for local music storage. However, since the Asus Hyper card is a full height card, I could not close the top cover of my computer (which is probably fine for now as I am always doing something). 

 

@dminches sent me one of these Supermicro aoc-slg3-2m2 cards to try.

 

It is a low profile PCIe card that can accept 2 x M.2 cards. I moved my NVME M.2 cards from the Asus Hyper to this PCIe card. Booted my computer. But I missed the right time to hit the DEL button to enter the BIOS. Windows booted. And to my surprise everything was immediately recognized, and I was able to access my music stored on those NVME cards right away. The VROC RAID0 worked fine without any changes needed. Pretty cool. My main music folder is just a little bit under 4TB and it fits fine on those two NVME cards. So no immediate need for a new chassis that supports the full height Asus Hyper PCIe cards. I have enough available PCIe slots if I decide to add another 4 TB in the future. 

I haven't compared the sound quality between the Asus Hyper and the Supermicro aoc-slg3-2m2 cards. But given that all they do is split the x16 PCIe slots to multiple x4 PCIe slots, I am guessing there would not be a big difference, if any. The Asus card has a nice big heatsink, but the I/O activity is so little in my case, that I don't think think these NVME cards get hot at all. 

 

@dminches had some problems setting this card on the Asus ROG Crosshair VII Hero. I haven't tested it there yet, but I am glad this is a good replacement of the Asus Hyper card for my dual CPU / Windows server. 

 

[Downtheline]

16 hours ago, Nenon said:

VROC RAID0 worked fine

Nenon, did you need to purchase a vroc key?

[Nenon]

46 minutes ago, Downtheline said:

Nenon, did you need to purchase a vroc key?

 

No. it's not needed for RAID0 when you use Intel NVME storage. 

[Downtheline]

6 hours ago, Nenon said:

RAID0

Of course I just received my supermicro AOC-SLG3-2M2 card and a samsung evo plus ssd.... have you listened for any improvement RAID0 brings? 

[Nenon]

11 hours ago, Cazzesman said:

I spent the entire late afternoon and evening reading this thread and the highly informative one started by Neon.    Kudos to you all.

 

My lonely CAPS Lagoon was sadly feeling like the 'hillbilly stepchild' in this field of very heavy hitters.

 

One thing I have not read in any of the threads is costings.    I'm fairly certain us budding DIY PC builders would like to see some prices attached to the various components you have been discussing.  

 

Cases

Power supplies

USB cards

Ram

i9 Motherboards

CPU's,

Heat sinks.

 

They all come at a price along the way.   Please include the RRP of these items where possible. 

 

Whether it be in US $ or the Euro.    I'm presuming these PC's are pushing $10,000 US$.   I'm just trying to get my head around what is possible for the $$$ as a DIY build.

 

Thanks again for all your brilliant posting and ideas.

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

On 6/11/2020 at 8:58 PM, Ianderson said:

Curiously if you were to produce another, what would one of these cost?

 

Since there were a few questions about price, I decided to address those. Let's talk about the cost of these builds. They are not cheap. And there are too many options. It's not easy to cover all of them. But let me try to simplify it a bit. I will be using my recent AMD build for that as I am scared and refuse to calculate the cost of my dual Xeon build (I know it's a lot but I prefer not to know the final number). I'll break it down into 5 categories - computer parts, audiophile cards, clocks and vibration isolation, power supplies, and cables. Please accept my rough numbers. Some of them might be way off, but the intention is to give some idea to the people who have no idea... is it $3K, or $5K, or $10K, or $15K? Let's find out. 

 

1. Computer parts. Here is a sample breakdown. Prices and components change. Let's call it $1500. 

 

2. Audiophile cards. It's $1400 in this case, but it was a lot more when I actually bought them (due to the USD-EUR conversion rates). Let's call this another $1500 for easier math. 

 

3. (Optional) Motherboard OCXO clock and vibration isolation. I rounded up #1 and #2. I am going to round it down this time to balance things out a little and call it $1500 as well just for easier math. 

  

So far we are looking at $4,500 for a top computer. This is with no power supply and stock DC cables. Now comes the difficult part - power supplies.

 

4. Power supplies. That is the part that defines how the computer above would sound. It can easily go from Ok to better to best just by replacing the power supplies and DC cables here.

Let's look at three pricing options - cheaper, more expensive, and cost no object. Please note, I am not saying good, better, best! I am giving products in different price ranges, that's all.

Power supply comparison is a completely different topic outside of the scope of this post, which is focused on pricing. I know some people would ask me regardless, so let me answer this question in advance. I don't know how the DC4 compares to the custom DR or standard SR-7. I am as curious as you are and have been trying to arrange a comparison. But that would most likely take several months. 

 

4a. Cheaper

Get two Keces P8 power supplies. 20V / 8A for the HDPlex and 12V / 8A for the EPS connector. That would be around $1500.

This is not the cheapest option... there are other cheaper options but I would not consider them.

 

4b. More Expensive

Get a 2-rail Paul Hynes Design SR-7 to power the EPS and HDPlex and a JCAT Optimo to power the two JCAT cards. 

That would be around $4,000.

Alternatively, Sean Jacobs can do a 4-rail DC3 LPS.

 

4c. Cost no Object

Get a 4-rail Sean Jacobs DC4. That would be around $6,000. 

 

5. Cables.

The power supplies and the HDPlex have some stock cables included. And you can use those. But better cables are an improvement. Let's look at two options - Ghent Audio (Neotech 7N copper) and Mundorf silver/gold. I am going to make some assumptions for the cable lengths, and that of course may not be the case for everybody, but just to get an idea. Also, in the case of power supply #4b and power supply #4c the stock cables are as good as the Ghent, so 4 out of the 7 cables are not needed if using Ghent. The Mundorf silver/gold are improvement in any case, so I would add all 7. 

 

You need 7 cables.

- power supply to NIC card - 2 feet (16 AWG Neotech / 15.5 AWG Mundorf silver / gold)

- power supply to USB card - 2 feet  (16 AWG Neotech / 15.5 AWG Mundorf silver / gold)

- power supply to chassis (EPS) - 2 feet  (16 AWG Neotech / 15.5 AWG Mundorf silver / gold)

- power supply to chassis (HDPlex) - 2 feet (16 AWG Neotech / 15.5 AWG Mundorf silver / gold)

- chassis to EPS - 1 foot (18AWG)

- chassis to HDplex - 2 feet (18AWG)

- 24-pin ATX cable - 1 foot (18AWG)

 

Here, I explain the cost breakdown of the Mundorf silver/gold cables.

On 6/15/2020 at 12:11 PM, Nenon said:

The Mundorf silver/gold wire, which as the name implies is not a pure silver wire, is by far the best wire I have heard in that application. I would not use this wire for audio interconnects or speaker cables. But for DC cables it is a significant upgrade to any system. This wire is expensive. Here is a cost breakdown for a 3-foot cable:

- 6-feet of wire (what you need for a 3-foot cable) in the US is about $250

https://www.partsconnexion.com/MUNDORF-72180.html#40543

Since Mundorf is a German company, some people in Europe might be able to find it cheaper locally, but those are the US prices. 

- Two Oyaide DC Connectors would be around $50. 

https://www.vhaudio.com/oyaide-dc.html

- Everything else including cotton sleeves, techflex, heatshrink, WBT silver solder, teflon tape, copper braid, etc would be around $25. And if you get those parts from different places and pay multiple shipping fees, the amount grows up pretty quickly. 

- It takes about an hour (maybe a little more) to make one cable, properly dress it, and test it. I guess "your time is free for you" principle applies here. 

Adjust as necessary, add those things up, and do the math. This is not a cheap cable. But if it was sold by one of the big cable makers, it would cost many times the cost if its materials. So, if you think that way, it is actually an incredible value compared to commercial cables. The downside is you have to do it yourself. Or find someone to do it for you. 

 

The reason I am providing a cost breakdown is to make it clear who this cable is for. I would not suggest that people with a $200 LPS start making this cable. I believe it is silly to spend more on the cable than the component. You would be much  better changing the component first. Although, for some reason this cable makes a pretty significant difference even with cheaper power supplies if your system is resolving enough. 

 

To simplify things, I would be using the cost of the wire + $75 per cable ($50 for connectors and $25 for other various materials). 

 

Is it worth spending that much for the Mundorf silver/gold cables?!? In my system - absolutely! 

But also keep in mind that's the cost if you make the Mundorf yourself as DIY. If you have to pay someone else to do it, the cost goes up. 

 

Summary:

One of these DIY computers would cost you anywhere from $4,500 to over $12,000. Here is a breakdown:

 

And that does not include the software. Euphony is an additional $289. 

 

 

[Cazzesman]

2 hours ago, Nenon said:

 

 

Since there were a few questions about price, I decided to address those. Let's talk about the cost of these builds. They are not cheap. And there are too many options. It's not easy to cover all of them. But let me try to simplify it a bit. I will be using my recent AMD build for that as I am scared and refuse to calculate the cost of my dual Xeon build (I know it's a lot but I prefer not to know the final number). I'll break it down into 5 categories - computer parts, audiophile cards, clocks and vibration isolation, power supplies, and cables. Please accept my rough numbers. Some of them might be way off, but the intention is to give some idea to the people who have no idea... is it $3K, or $5K, or $10K, or $15K? Let's find out. 

 

1. Computer parts. Here is a sample breakdown. Prices and components change. Let's call it $1500. 

 

2. Audiophile cards. It's $1400 in this case, but it was a lot more when I actually bought them (due to the USD-EUR conversion rates). Let's call this another $1500 for easier math. 

 

3. (Optional) Motherboard OCXO clock and vibration isolation. I rounded up #1 and #2. I am going to round it down this time to balance things out a little and call it $1500 as well just for easier math. 

  

So far we are looking at $4,500 for a top computer. This is with no power supply and stock DC cables. Now comes the difficult part - power supplies.

 

4. Power supplies. That is the part that defines how the computer above would sound. It can easily go from Ok to better to best just by replacing the power supplies and DC cables here.

Let's look at three pricing options - cheaper, more expensive, and cost no object. Please note, I am not saying good, better, best! I am giving products in different price ranges, that's all.

Power supply comparison is a completely different topic outside of the scope of this post, which is focused on pricing. I know some people would ask me regardless, so let me answer this question in advance. I don't know how the DC4 compares to the custom DR or standard SR-7. I am as curious as you are and have been trying to arrange a comparison. But that would most likely take several months. 

 

4a. Cheaper

Get two Keces P8 power supplies. 20V / 8A for the HDPlex and 12V / 8A for the EPS connector. That would be around $1500.

This is not the cheapest option... there are other cheaper options but I would not consider them.

 

4b. More Expensive

Get a 2-rail Paul Hynes Design SR-7 to power the EPS and HDPlex and a JCAT Optimo to power the two JCAT cards. 

That would be around $4,000.

Alternatively, Sean Jacobs can do a 4-rail DC3 LPS.

 

4c. Cost no Object

Get a 4-rail Sean Jacobs DC4. That would be around $6,000. 

 

5. Cables.

The power supplies and the HDPlex have some stock cables included. And you can use those. But better cables are an improvement. Let's look at two options - Ghent Audio (Neotech 7N copper) and Mundorf silver/gold. I am going to make some assumptions for the cable lengths, and that of course may not be the case for everybody, but just to get an idea. Also, in the case of power supply #4b and power supply #4c the stock cables are as good as the Ghent, so 4 out of the 7 cables are not needed if using Ghent. The Mundorf silver/gold are improvement in any case, so I would add all 7. 

 

You need 7 cables.

- power supply to NIC card - 2 feet (16 AWG Neotech / 15.5 AWG Mundorf silver / gold)

- power supply to USB card - 2 feet  (16 AWG Neotech / 15.5 AWG Mundorf silver / gold)

- power supply to chassis (EPS) - 2 feet  (16 AWG Neotech / 15.5 AWG Mundorf silver / gold)

- power supply to chassis (HDPlex) - 2 feet (16 AWG Neotech / 15.5 AWG Mundorf silver / gold)

- chassis to EPS - 1 foot (18AWG)

- chassis to HDplex - 2 feet (18AWG)

- 24-pin ATX cable - 1 foot (18AWG)

 

Here, I explain the cost breakdown of the Mundorf silver/gold cables.

 

To simplify things, I would be using the cost of the wire + $75 per cable ($50 for connectors and $25 for other various materials). 

 

Is it worth spending that much for the Mundorf silver/gold cables?!? In my system - absolutely! 

But also keep in mind that's the cost if you make the Mundorf yourself as DIY. If you have to pay someone else to do it, the cost goes up. 

 

Summary:

One of these DIY computers would cost you anywhere from $4,500 to over $12,000. Here is a breakdown:

 

And that does not include the software. Euphony is an additional $289. 

 

 

 

 

Brilliantly done Nenon.   You are true gent on this forum.

 

Being use to the lowly Australian $ that would make the Top of the Range Unit (4C with Mundorf) anywhere from Aust $18,000 to $20,000 with assort postage etc.     That's a very interesting price for what you are getting.   It is well under half the price of the famous Taiko Extreme but we are taking about comparing apples and oranges. 

 

Thanks again for the detailed costings (as best you could)

 

Regards Cazzesman

[Cazzesman]

I have been pondering various upgrades and replacements that could also be reused and future proof to some extent in a new PC build down the track.

 

Based on what I have read (correct me if I am wrong) I would think an improved USB card and LPS to power MB and USB card would be a good step forward.

 

My current set up is

 

System - CAPS (Lagoon) - WS2019 - Audiophile Optimizer v3.0 - Fidelizer 8.4pro -128 gig & 2tb SSD (Music storage) + Sotm USB exp card - Synology NAS DS416 Slim (Backup) - JRiver Ver 25 - USB Curious Cable (Aqvox LNPS each end) into Mutec USB 3+ reclocker into MiniDsp 22D (Dirac Live) via Canare 110 AES into Kii 3 speakers via Ortofon 110 AES, with Kii Controller.  All powered from 2000 VA IsoTran.

 

I currently have a Sotm PCIe exp USB Card in my CAPS Lagoon.    Is the replacement of the Sotm with the JCat XE usb card as easy as swapping one in and out of the MB. (with software tweaks)?

 

Also the Keces 8P looks like a good start.

 

With the USB signal currently being reclocked by the Mutec where do you expect the improvement to come from if the Sotm USB was changed out for the Jcat XE.    Is the Mutec just doing the same thing at the XE?

 

Any thoughts about a slow rebuild whereby the improvements can be carried on into a major rebuild?

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

[Nenon]

2 hours ago, Cazzesman said:

I have been pondering various upgrades and replacements that could also be reused and future proof to some extent in a new PC build down the track.

 

Based on what I have read (correct me if I am wrong) I would think an improved USB card and LPS to power MB and USB card would be a good step forward.

 

My current set up is

 

System - CAPS (Lagoon) - WS2019 - Audiophile Optimizer v3.0 - Fidelizer 8.4pro -128 gig & 2tb SSD (Music storage) + Sotm USB exp card - Synology NAS DS416 Slim (Backup) - JRiver Ver 25 - USB Curious Cable (Aqvox LNPS each end) into Mutec USB 3+ reclocker into MiniDsp 22D (Dirac Live) via Canare 110 AES into Kii 3 speakers via Ortofon 110 AES, with Kii Controller.  All powered from 2000 VA IsoTran.

 

I currently have a Sotm PCIe exp USB Card in my CAPS Lagoon.    Is the replacement of the Sotm with the JCat XE usb card as easy as swapping one in and out of the MB. (with software tweaks)?

 

Also the Keces 8P looks like a good start.

 

With the USB signal currently being reclocked by the Mutec where do you expect the improvement to come from if the Sotm USB was changed out for the Jcat XE.    Is the Mutec just doing the same thing at the XE?

 

Any thoughts about a slow rebuild whereby the improvements can be carried on into a major rebuild?

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

I am afraid I won't be able to give you a good advice on gradual upgrade path, simply because I don't know some of the components in your system. 

Replacing the SOTM PCIe card with a JCAT USB XE card should be a very simple task. But then you are outputting USB from your computer, converting to AES with the the Mutec DDC, then going through another DDC (MiniDsp 22D), then going to the KII. 

 

What if you replace the SOTM and the Mutec with PinkFaun AES/EBU or SPDIF card? You will lose the ability to play DSD, and your PCM would be limited to 192 KHz, which is probably fine as I am guessing your miniDSP does not support that either. And that is if the Pink Faun card is even supported on your computer. I am not familiar with the CAPS (Lagoon) server and honestly I don't feel like I understand your system enough to be able to suggest gradual upgrades. Sorry, maybe other people can chime in. @bobfa has Kii speakers, but I don't know if he uses Dirac Live. 

There are two other AES options you may want to check (also check if they can fit in your server):

- Lynx AES16e
- RME HDSPe AES

In my system, I prefer the JCAT XE over the SOTM, by a big margin. But on the other hand, when SPDIF was my prefered output, the PinkFaun SPDIF card with ultraOCXO sounded better than any USB card + DDC I have tried. The problem is those PinkFaun cards don't work well with every CPU. 

[flkin]

7 hours ago, Nenon said:

 

 

Since there were a few questions about price, I decided to address those. Let's talk about the cost of these builds. They are not cheap. And there are too many options. It's not easy to cover all of them. But let me try to simplify it a bit. I will be using my recent AMD build for that as I am scared and refuse to calculate the cost of my dual Xeon build (I know it's a lot but I prefer not to know the final number). I'll break it down into 5 categories - computer parts, audiophile cards, clocks and vibration isolation, power supplies, and cables. Please accept my rough numbers. Some of them might be way off, but the intention is to give some idea to the people who have no idea... is it $3K, or $5K, or $10K, or $15K? Let's find out. 

 

1. Computer parts. Here is a sample breakdown. Prices and components change. Let's call it $1500. 

 

2. Audiophile cards. It's $1400 in this case, but it was a lot more when I actually bought them (due to the USD-EUR conversion rates). Let's call this another $1500 for easier math. 

 

3. (Optional) Motherboard OCXO clock and vibration isolation. I rounded up #1 and #2. I am going to round it down this time to balance things out a little and call it $1500 as well just for easier math. 

  

So far we are looking at $4,500 for a top computer. This is with no power supply and stock DC cables. Now comes the difficult part - power supplies.

 

4. Power supplies. That is the part that defines how the computer above would sound. It can easily go from Ok to better to best just by replacing the power supplies and DC cables here.

Let's look at three pricing options - cheaper, more expensive, and cost no object. Please note, I am not saying good, better, best! I am giving products in different price ranges, that's all.

Power supply comparison is a completely different topic outside of the scope of this post, which is focused on pricing. I know some people would ask me regardless, so let me answer this question in advance. I don't know how the DC4 compares to the custom DR or standard SR-7. I am as curious as you are and have been trying to arrange a comparison. But that would most likely take several months. 

 

4a. Cheaper

Get two Keces P8 power supplies. 20V / 8A for the HDPlex and 12V / 8A for the EPS connector. That would be around $1500.

This is not the cheapest option... there are other cheaper options but I would not consider them.

 

4b. More Expensive

Get a 2-rail Paul Hynes Design SR-7 to power the EPS and HDPlex and a JCAT Optimo to power the two JCAT cards. 

That would be around $4,000.

Alternatively, Sean Jacobs can do a 4-rail DC3 LPS.

 

4c. Cost no Object

Get a 4-rail Sean Jacobs DC4. That would be around $6,000. 

 

5. Cables.

The power supplies and the HDPlex have some stock cables included. And you can use those. But better cables are an improvement. Let's look at two options - Ghent Audio (Neotech 7N copper) and Mundorf silver/gold. I am going to make some assumptions for the cable lengths, and that of course may not be the case for everybody, but just to get an idea. Also, in the case of power supply #4b and power supply #4c the stock cables are as good as the Ghent, so 4 out of the 7 cables are not needed if using Ghent. The Mundorf silver/gold are improvement in any case, so I would add all 7. 

 

You need 7 cables.

- power supply to NIC card - 2 feet (16 AWG Neotech / 15.5 AWG Mundorf silver / gold)

- power supply to USB card - 2 feet  (16 AWG Neotech / 15.5 AWG Mundorf silver / gold)

- power supply to chassis (EPS) - 2 feet  (16 AWG Neotech / 15.5 AWG Mundorf silver / gold)

- power supply to chassis (HDPlex) - 2 feet (16 AWG Neotech / 15.5 AWG Mundorf silver / gold)

- chassis to EPS - 1 foot (18AWG)

- chassis to HDplex - 2 feet (18AWG)

- 24-pin ATX cable - 1 foot (18AWG)

 

Here, I explain the cost breakdown of the Mundorf silver/gold cables.

 

To simplify things, I would be using the cost of the wire + $75 per cable ($50 for connectors and $25 for other various materials). 

 

Is it worth spending that much for the Mundorf silver/gold cables?!? In my system - absolutely! 

But also keep in mind that's the cost if you make the Mundorf yourself as DIY. If you have to pay someone else to do it, the cost goes up. 

 

Summary:

One of these DIY computers would cost you anywhere from $4,500 to over $12,000. Here is a breakdown:

 

And that does not include the software. Euphony is an additional $289. 

 

 

Cost no object version is approaching the Pink Faun 2.16x streamer with 4 OCXO ultra clocks. 
 

https://www.pinkfaun.com/shop/content/15-streamer216x

[ray-dude]

16 hours ago, Nenon said:

One of these DIY computers would cost you anywhere from $4,500 to over $12,000. Here is a breakdown:

 

 

Fantastic Nenon!  I did similar back of the envelope math earlier this year, then added in a fudge factor because while I knew I would eventually get to the more premium end of the spectrum, I also knew I would feel compelled to travel the intermediate steps to get there.  That's how I got to spitting distance of jumping on the Extreme train and skipping the intermediate 5 steps.  It's amazing how much power (and to a lesser extent clock) dominates the calculus.  We're basically building power supplies and clock generators with some electronics and storage attached.

 

I continue to have a nagging tingle from my spidey sense that Emile's "mother of all capacitor banks" for filtering will have a LOT more running room on the power side of the equation than the incredible supplies from Sean and Paul et al.  If one were to have (theoretically) perfect filtering capacity with an arbitrarily large and fast filter bank, your options on the power side of the bank REALLY open up (who cares if you have a noisy supply if the filter bank takes care of business?).  From a DIY perspective, Sean certainly leans heavy into crazy large filters, but even he is an order of magnitude off what Emile is doing.  Has anyone seen another power supply maker take a similar strategy?

 

 

[bobfa]

12 hours ago, Nenon said:

 

I am afraid I won't be able to give you a good advice on gradual upgrade path, simply because I don't know some of the components in your system. 

Replacing the SOTM PCIe card with a JCAT USB XE card should be a very simple task. But then you are outputting USB from your computer, converting to AES with the the Mutec DDC, then going through another DDC (MiniDsp 22D), then going to the KII. 

 

What if you replace the SOTM and the Mutec with PinkFaun AES/EBU or SPDIF card? You will lose the ability to play DSD, and your PCM would be limited to 192 KHz, which is probably fine as I am guessing your miniDSP does not support that either. And that is if the Pink Faun card is even supported on your computer. I am not familiar with the CAPS (Lagoon) server and honestly I don't feel like I understand your system enough to be able to suggest gradual upgrades. Sorry, maybe other people can chime in. @bobfa has Kii speakers, but I don't know if he uses Dirac Live. 

There are two other AES options you may want to check (also check if they can fit in your server):

- Lynx AES16e
- RME HDSPe AES

In my system, I prefer the JCAT XE over the SOTM, by a big margin. But on the other hand, when SPDIF was my prefered output, the PinkFaun SPDIF card with ultraOCXO sounded better than any USB card + DDC I have tried. The problem is those PinkFaun cards don't work well with every CPU. 

 

The Journey

 

 

@Cazzesman I think that there is not an "end game" here. I believe in continuous improvement; it is never "really done." Over the past four years, I have been following a path that is sometimes well beaten down by others, and sometimes the I have to provide the compass.

 

I am currently totally enamored by the Kii Three Speaker system. I have the BXT modules, and as a system, they are amazing.  That is my baseline along with the system location in my living room.

 

With the Kii system I have set up, I made the strategic decision to have room correction on the digital feed. I am using Roon and Convolution filters with the help of @mitchco for that. The Kii's allow excellent placement in my living room, and the correction in Roon cleans up the room nicely.  

 

For my ears and eyes, this makes a great platform to build on. 

 

1. USB for digital source
2. Coax for Sonos integration
3. Balanced for Turntable.

 

Now that you have some more background, let us talk about the path to today. For quite a while, I ran a Mac Mini as my music server. It did a functional job of providing a digital music source. I fussed over a couple of them for several years. I started playing with different platforms, and for most of 2019, I used two systems, a NUC and a Xeon server that I built (see my links at the end of this post). I have used that Xeon server for over a year and have been pretty happy with it. I published an article on the JCAT hardware that showed me I could do better with my server builds. Thus the current journey. Here is the current system:

 

 

The build I am testing today has been driven from multiple threads here on the forum and much more. First more cores, second fast processor, third AMD experiment. I am re-using my APACER RAM and my Optane SSD. I am running Roon and Euphony, and currently, I store music on my NAS.  I am using a SOtM txUSBext card to a SOtM txUSB ultra. YES, is make a difference. The USB card and the external re-clocker are powered by an HDPLEX 200, which also powers my Sonore Opticalmodule. I am testing two motherboards and have settled on the ASUS ROG Crosshair VII Hero at the suggestion of @Nenon. The second Motherboard that is also interesting is a ROG Crosshair VIII Formula.

 

So welcome to the crossroad! Here are a few rules I am following right now.

 

1. Work backwards from the Room
2. No Soldering
3. Limited Software fussing. Roon on Euphony baseline.  (I spent 2019 on this)
4. No Case selection
5. Cables are less relevant until the system design is closer to being finalized.

 

The rules help me limit my scope and move faster. No soldering eliminates some of the tweakings that slow me down. I do not want to be limited by the case right now. I have a fan on the CPU Cooler, that will change later!

 

Right now, I am getting ready to work several variables, power supply, Network, and USB chain. I am leaning on ordering one of the new JCAT USB cards to A/B against what I am doing now. I am considering the JCAT network card, the Uptone EtherRegen. Finally, I have an M.2 PCIe card that I can put four drives in as music storage.  

 

I will be starting a power supply discussion on the forum shortly. I have an exciting idea to discuss So that is one man's direction in server land. Single Box AMD, Fiber network, USB connected using Euphony OS, Roon Application, Music on NAS.

 

 

Overview of current cost:

 

Roon Lifetime $600

Euphony OS $300

Motherboard $250

APACER RAM $250

AMD 7300 $330

Noctua HN-D15 $115

 

I am using a $200 Open Benchtable stand to allow me to work.  

 

HDPLEX 200 $300??

SOtM USB $350

SOtm USB ultra $1500

 

I have been testing a couple of power supply options, my default was an HDPLEX 400, but it seems a bit overloaded. That supply is about $800??

 

 

Where else is the money going

 

Room correction software and service $1000

Speakers $40,000

AC Power cords and filter $5000

Tidal and Qobuz $500 / year???

 

 

bob

 

Here are some links :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nenon]

1 hour ago, ray-dude said:

Fantastic Nenon!  I did similar back of the envelope math earlier this year, then added in a fudge factor because while I knew I would eventually get to the more premium end of the spectrum, I also knew I would feel compelled to travel the intermediate steps to get there.  That's how I got to spitting distance of jumping on the Extreme train and skipping the intermediate 5 steps.  It's amazing how much power (and to a lesser extent clock) dominates the calculus.  We're basically building power supplies and clock generators with some electronics and storage attached.

You are absolutely right. And the Extreme is a great value when you consider all the parts inside, the time you would save, the support you get, etc.

 

1 hour ago, ray-dude said:

From a DIY perspective, Sean certainly leans heavy into crazy large filters, but even he is an order of magnitude off what Emile is doing.  Has anyone seen another power supply maker take a similar strategy?

I am not so sure about this. I actually think if anything was compromised on the Extreme, it might have been the power supply. But I don't know much about the design, and it would not be fair to make any conclusions. So far I have not seen any compromises on the Extreme, and maybe if I learn more its power supply I would change my mind :). We know Emile is full of surprises!

But I can comment on what I see and if I was to do some educated guesses and speculations, here is what I think. I'll break this down in 3 parts - capacitors bank, transformer(s), and number of rails.

1. Capacitors bank.

What I see is 14 electrolytic Mundorf Mlytic AG capacitors (those are the big capacitance caps) and 3 small value film capacitors (2 Duelund and one Mundorf in a special tankwood stand). Let's focus on the electrolytics as they provide the high capacitance. Those Mundorf Mlytic AG go from 1000 uF to 47000 uF. The most commonly used values in DC LPS are 10,000 uF, 22,000 uF, 33,000 uF, and 47,000 uF. They are typically 30 mm or 35 mm in diameter. I have seen Sean Jacobs using different values in his power supply. He uses four of these per DC rail in his DC4 (and in some DC3's). I don't think he uses the largest values, and I believe this is done for a reason (not related to cost).

A perfect DIY server has 6 rails - 3 rails for the ATX, 1 rail for the EPS, 1 rail for the Network card, and 1 rail for the digital output card (i.e. USB). So, going with 6 x DC4 rails, you will end up with 24 of those Mundorf Mlytic AG capacitors. That's actually a lot more than the Extreme (14). I am not considering the value of the capacitors here. I think Sean is using 10,000 uF by default, but I also think if you need more capacitance he would be able to accommodate it. Whether the end result would be better or worse, I don't really know. I am strictly comparing the capacitance in a vacuum. 

 

2. Transformer(s)

Taiko Extreme uses one 400VA transformer. That's probably not the best transformer for the Extreme. I do believe the transformer is a weak point here.  I power up my dual Xeon server with two 400VA transformers that I believe are of better quality, but I don't want to judge by the cover. Taiko has the transformer geniously installed in a tankwood enclosure - that's brilliant! 

I also always find the transformer to reduce the sound quality when installed in the same chassis as the motherboard. But the Extreme has a thick copper panel between the two. I have tried multiple different panels - they helped but did not completely fix the problem - but I have never done such thick copper panel or the many holes on the Extreme designed to help with EMI/RFI. Let's assume Emile has nailed this down, and that has no negative impact in the Extreme. 

But what if you were to go with 6 rails of DC4? Per Sean's web site, the DC4 is limited to 3 rails: "If you require more than 3 outputs, then you will need to order multiple DC4 units". So, that means you actually need to get two DC4 power supplies for 6 rails. 

That is 2 x 600VA transformers! Again, much (3 times) more than the Extreme. You don't get the tankwood enclosure, but the DC4 has some vibration damping... probably not as sophisticated as on the Extreme though. 

 

3. Number of rails

From our past experiments, we know that the more isolated our server components are with different linear power supply rails, the better. A separate rail for the EPS makes a big difference. A separate rail for the USB makes even bigger difference. And so on. That's why my perfect build has 6 separate DC rails. That has always been better in all my tests. The problem with so many DC rails is heat dissipation. 

I have no idea what Taiko Extreme does for power supply, but I honestly see one rail only. If the Extreme was using many rails with linear regulators, I would expect to see those regulators exposed to the heatsink with adequate space between them, to provide proper cooling as they need to dissipate quite some heat. I don't see anything like that there. If I was to speculate big time, the Extreme is using one rail and the everything is handled by switching mode regulators. Again, Emile is full of surprises, so is it possible that he has discovered something that works better than multiple rails of LPS? Why not... I would not be surprised at all. 

 

All I wanted to say is that although that bank of capacitors looks very impressive, there are DIY options than can give you much more capacitance. But the important part here is the end result. Taiko Extreme has set a new bar and our DIY experiments are not even close at that point. We all need to get back to work :). 

[ray-dude]

 

The other wrinkle is Emile sharing that high quality clocks actually take away SQ in the Extreme (although he is understandably proprietary about his clock strategy).  He is definitely taking the road less traveled when it comes to power supplies and clocking.  

 

That being said, that many rails of Sean Jacobs DC4 rails would be something to behold!  I only have one Sean Jacobs supply (DC3'ish) but it was custom built/configured for my DAC, so I haven't had the opportunity to hear this bespoke supplies further back up the digital chain.  Alas, I suspect that by the time my SR7 custom build gets here, we will have all moved on to Mr. Fusion power supplies

 

 

[Nenon]

4 minutes ago, ray-dude said:

The other wrinkle is Emile sharing that high quality clocks actually take away SQ in the Extreme (although he is understandably proprietary about his clock strategy).  He is definitely taking the road less traveled when it comes to power supplies and clocking.  

 

The guy has a lot of experience and knows what he is doing. Here is an example I don't think I have shared...

When I got the PinkFaun ultraOCXO clock for my motherboard, I received a board that looks exactly like the board used on the previous Taiko servers (SGM EVO). Was PinkFaun making the clock boards for Taiko? Or was Taiko making the clock boards for PinkFaun?

Either way, Emile must know a thing or two about clocks! And clocks work hand in hand with vibration treatment and power supplies. 

[ray-dude]

34 minutes ago, Nenon said:

And clocks work hand in hand with vibration treatment and power supplies.

 

A thousand times this!  When we finally unravel all the secret sauce, I suspect a huge part of it will stem from conceptualizing all of these as aspects of a single component in the design.  

 

I keep relearning basic metrology - what you measure/observe is only as good as the integrity of your weakest reference.  Especially for digital systems, perfect reference power and timing, and a lot of "problems" just go away!

 

And since we're sharing untold stories, somewhere in the garage I "unofficially" have a memory board from a Cray 1S. As a whipper snapper engineer, I learned so much from studying that board (and for programming for the Cray).  The entire board design was about clock and power distribution, with a twist of cooling mixed in to keep it from (literally) melting. Complete brute force design, like a lot of Cray designs back in the day, but overwhelming brute force focused like a laser on the key things that mattered most.  I was thinking a lot about that board as I studied Emile's design.

[Cazzesman]

3 hours ago, bobfa said:

 

The Journey

 

 

@Cazzesman I think that there is not an "end game" here. I believe in continuous improvement; it is never "really done." Over the past four years, I have been following a path that is sometimes well beaten down by others, and sometimes the I have to provide the compass.

 

I am currently totally enamored by the Kii Three Speaker system. I have the BXT modules, and as a system, they are amazing.  That is my baseline along with the system location in my living room.

 

With the Kii system I have set up, I made the strategic decision to have room correction on the digital feed. I am using Roon and Convolution filters with the help of @mitchco for that. The Kii's allow excellent placement in my living room, and the correction in Roon cleans up the room nicely.  

 

For my ears and eyes, this makes a great platform to build on. 

 

1. USB for digital source
2. Coax for Sonos integration
3. Balanced for Turntable.

 

Now that you have some more background, let us talk about the path to today. For quite a while, I ran a Mac Mini as my music server. It did a functional job of providing a digital music source. I fussed over a couple of them for several years. I started playing with different platforms, and for most of 2019, I used two systems, a NUC and a Xeon server that I built (see my links at the end of this post). I have used that Xeon server for over a year and have been pretty happy with it. I published an article on the JCAT hardware that showed me I could do better with my server builds. Thus the current journey. Here is the current system:

 

 

The build I am testing today has been driven from multiple threads here on the forum and much more. First more cores, second fast processor, third AMD experiment. I am re-using my APACER RAM and my Optane SSD. I am running Roon and Euphony, and currently, I store music on my NAS.  I am using a SOtM txUSBext card to a SOtM txUSB ultra. YES, is make a difference. The USB card and the external re-clocker are powered by an HDPLEX 200, which also powers my Sonore Opticalmodule. I am testing two motherboards and have settled on the ASUS ROG Crosshair VII Hero at the suggestion of @Nenon. The second Motherboard that is also interesting is a ROG Crosshair VIII Formula.

 

So welcome to the crossroad! Here are a few rules I am following right now.

 

1. Work backwards from the Room
2. No Soldering
3. Limited Software fussing. Roon on Euphony baseline.  (I spent 2019 on this)
4. No Case selection
5. Cables are less relevant until the system design is closer to being finalized.

 

The rules help me limit my scope and move faster. No soldering eliminates some of the tweakings that slow me down. I do not want to be limited by the case right now. I have a fan on the CPU Cooler, that will change later!

 

Right now, I am getting ready to work several variables, power supply, Network, and USB chain. I am leaning on ordering one of the new JCAT USB cards to A/B against what I am doing now. I am considering the JCAT network card, the Uptone EtherRegen. Finally, I have an M.2 PCIe card that I can put four drives in as music storage.  

 

I will be starting a power supply discussion on the forum shortly. I have an exciting idea to discuss So that is one man's direction in server land. Single Box AMD, Fiber network, USB connected using Euphony OS, Roon Application, Music on NAS.

 

 

Overview of current cost:

 

Roon Lifetime $600

Euphony OS $300

Motherboard $250

APACER RAM $250

AMD 7300 $330

Noctua HN-D15 $115

 

I am using a $200 Open Benchtable stand to allow me to work.  

 

HDPLEX 200 $300??

SOtM USB $350

SOtm USB ultra $1500

 

I have been testing a couple of power supply options, my default was an HDPLEX 400, but it seems a bit overloaded. That supply is about $800??

 

 

Where else is the money going

 

Room correction software and service $1000

Speakers $40,000

AC Power cords and filter $5000

Tidal and Qobuz $500 / year???

 

 

bob

 

Here are some links :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brilliant Bobfa.

 

Can't thank you enough.   Inspiring post full of great information.

 

I can see here my work has just begun.    And he's me thinking my eventual retirement might be boring 🙂

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

[Blackmorec]

8 hours ago, ray-dude said:

 

A thousand times this!  When we finally unravel all the secret sauce, I suspect a huge part of it will stem from conceptualizing all of these as aspects of a single component in the design.  

 

I keep relearning basic metrology - what you measure/observe is only as good as the integrity of your weakest reference.  Especially for digital systems, perfect reference power and timing, and a lot of "problems" just go away!

 

And since we're sharing untold stories, somewhere in the garage I "unofficially" have a memory board from a Cray 1S. As a whipper snapper engineer, I learned so much from studying that board (and for programming for the Cray).  The entire board design was about clock and power distribution, with a twist of cooling mixed in to keep it from (literally) melting. Complete brute force design, like a lot of Cray designs back in the day, but overwhelming brute force focused like a laser on the key things that mattered most.  I was thinking a lot about that board as I studied Emile's design.

One of the reasons I like Innuos so much is their very clear focus on certain engineering aspects; excellent High stability low noise power supplies, EMI minimisation (internal generation, external screening), vibration control, clock timing and clock power.  When I took exactly these aspects and applied them to the upstream network, I was rewarded with major sound quality improvements. Interestingly I still haven’t found a point where the classical ‘law of diminishing returns’ applies, as each upgrade brings further improvements, in sometimes unexpected ways that are difficult to describe in hi-fi terms of how the music sounds and more easily described in terms of listener feelings, reactions and emotions. Music becomes more exciting, more deeply moving or thrilling, more joyous, easier to listen to without needing to concentrate, more inviting, more compelling, more believable, more bounce-you-out-of-your-seat rhythmical. 

 The one area that still blows me away is the influence of DC cables. The addition of Chord umbilicals to the Statement made me wonder why they weren’t available as an Innuos upgrade, as their effect was so ‘fundamental’ and impactful. Similarly Nenon’s Mundorf Silver/Gold DC cable design has a massive impact, way out of proportion to what it actually is....a DC cable to a network switch for example. 

I came into digital streaming firmly believing that digital was about convenience and choice, but vinyl was still the most convincing medium musically. All the above improvements moved my digital set-up so far beyond what my vinyl set-up was delivering that it well and truly obsoleted my implementation of the analog medium, relegating it to a fussy, old fashioned technology whose days were clearly passed.  

For over 40 years I managed to achieve my version of ‘almost’ complete satisfaction from analog......To put that in perspective, I can now get that level of replay from Radio Swiss Classical....beautiful music and perfectly satisfying sound. So when you hit the play button for a good Redbook resolution recording from Quboz, its still a shock how much better the replay can get, with qualities I at least never dreamed possible from the CD format.  The key to unlocking this performance, at least for me, lay in the engineering goals listed above. 

[Aryoh]

12 hours ago, Nenon said:

You are absolutely right. And the Extreme is a great value when you consider all the parts inside, the time you would save, the support you get, etc.

 

I am not so sure about this. I actually think if anything was compromised on the Extreme, it might have been the power supply. But I don't know much about the design, and it would not be fair to make any conclusions. So far I have not seen any compromises on the Extreme, and maybe if I learn more its power supply I would change my mind :). We know Emile is full of surprises!

But I can comment on what I see and if I was to do some educated guesses and speculations, here is what I think. I'll break this down in 3 parts - capacitors bank, transformer(s), and number of rails.

1. Capacitors bank.

What I see is 14 electrolytic Mundorf Mlytic AG capacitors (those are the big capacitance caps) and 3 small value film capacitors (2 Duelund and one Mundorf in a special tankwood stand). Let's focus on the electrolytics as they provide the high capacitance. Those Mundorf Mlytic AG go from 1000 uF to 47000 uF. The most commonly used values in DC LPS are 10,000 uF, 22,000 uF, 33,000 uF, and 47,000 uF. They are typically 30 mm or 35 mm in diameter. I have seen Sean Jacobs using different values in his power supply. He uses four of these per DC rail in his DC4 (and in some DC3's). I don't think he uses the largest values, and I believe this is done for a reason (not related to cost).

A perfect DIY server has 6 rails - 3 rails for the ATX, 1 rail for the EPS, 1 rail for the Network card, and 1 rail for the digital output card (i.e. USB). So, going with 6 x DC4 rails, you will end up with 24 of those Mundorf Mlytic AG capacitors. That's actually a lot more than the Extreme (14). I am not considering the value of the capacitors here. I think Sean is using 10,000 uF by default, but I also think if you need more capacitance he would be able to accommodate it. Whether the end result would be better or worse, I don't really know. I am strictly comparing the capacitance in a vacuum. 

 

2. Transformer(s)

Taiko Extreme uses one 400VA transformer. That's probably not the best transformer for the Extreme. I do believe the transformer is a weak point here.  I power up my dual Xeon server with two 400VA transformers that I believe are of better quality, but I don't want to judge by the cover. Taiko has the transformer geniously installed in a tankwood enclosure - that's brilliant! 

I also always find the transformer to reduce the sound quality when installed in the same chassis as the motherboard. But the Extreme has a thick copper panel between the two. I have tried multiple different panels - they helped but did not completely fix the problem - but I have never done such thick copper panel or the many holes on the Extreme designed to help with EMI/RFI. Let's assume Emile has nailed this down, and that has no negative impact in the Extreme. 

But what if you were to go with 6 rails of DC4? Per Sean's web site, the DC4 is limited to 3 rails: "If you require more than 3 outputs, then you will need to order multiple DC4 units". So, that means you actually need to get two DC4 power supplies for 6 rails. 

That is 2 x 600VA transformers! Again, much (3 times) more than the Extreme. You don't get the tankwood enclosure, but the DC4 has some vibration damping... probably not as sophisticated as on the Extreme though. 

 

3. Number of rails

From our past experiments, we know that the more isolated our server components are with different linear power supply rails, the better. A separate rail for the EPS makes a big difference. A separate rail for the USB makes even bigger difference. And so on. That's why my perfect build has 6 separate DC rails. That has always been better in all my tests. The problem with so many DC rails is heat dissipation. 

I have no idea what Taiko Extreme does for power supply, but I honestly see one rail only. If the Extreme was using many rails with linear regulators, I would expect to see those regulators exposed to the heatsink with adequate space between them, to provide proper cooling as they need to dissipate quite some heat. I don't see anything like that there. If I was to speculate big time, the Extreme is using one rail and the everything is handled by switching mode regulators. Again, Emile is full of surprises, so is it possible that he has discovered something that works better than multiple rails of LPS? Why not... I would not be surprised at all. 

 

All I wanted to say is that although that bank of capacitors looks very impressive, there are DIY options than can give you much more capacitance. But the important part here is the end result. Taiko Extreme has set a new bar and our DIY experiments are not even close at that point. We all need to get back to work :). 

Much of the Extreme power supply design has a choke filter, he has a big impact on ripple https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzwaHO6WPCk&t=383s

This power supply has similarities to the SGM server but uses a Lundahl choke instead of 2 Hammonds and one extra double coil .

 

[flkin]

12 hours ago, Nenon said:

 

The guy has a lot of experience and knows what he is doing. Here is an example I don't think I have shared...

When I got the PinkFaun ultraOCXO clock for my motherboard, I received a board that looks exactly like the board used on the previous Taiko servers (SGM EVO). Was PinkFaun making the clock boards for Taiko? Or was Taiko making the clock boards for PinkFaun?

Either way, Emile must know a thing or two about clocks! And clocks work hand in hand with vibration treatment and power supplies. 

 

Taiko and Pink Faun (at that time PF was a house brand of the Dutch Triple M Audio) has a history together that involves more than clocks.. 😉

 

Taiko got their clocks and their boards from TMA in previous models before the Extreme. At that time, they used Conner Winfield OCXO clocks. Later PF spun off into a separate company and came out with their own Ultra range of clocks custom made for them.

 

[altsouza]

Hi @Nenon

First of all I would like to congratulate Nenon and the other participants in this topic, for the excellent information on how to build an Audio Music Server.
 

My Server consists of: (AudioLinux running Roon Server >>> Allo USB Signature Streamer with Salas Ladapter PSU)

- Mini Itx Gigabyte B360n Board

- i5 5400 processor

- 8gb Ram

- M2 264gb drive

- AudioLinux 

- Roon Server

Taking advantage of this Home Office period, I installed Audiolinux on the server. And the result was fantastic, far superior to Win10. With that in mind, I discovered that the Server is a key part of the System.
 

My next purchase will be a PSU for the server. Unfortunately it's out of my budget to buy a $ 600 LPSU like the HDplex LPS 300. I thought about buying the HDPlex SMPS (Switch Mode) 200W + atx DC-DC adapter combo (US$130). Certainly this combo would be superior to the normal Psu I use now. (a $ 20 SMPS (10a) + Pico Psu)
 

But I was just thinking of Nenon's claims about using Multi rail PSU connecting directly to the terminals of the board, and that the amperage needed would be around 2 to a maximum of 5 amps.
I can buy, relatively cheap,  some Toroidal transformers in the range of $ 25 for a 100w and $ 50 for a 200w  from a local supplier.

So I thought about using the AC-DC regulators in the link below, together (or without)  the HDx Atx DC-DC Adapter (200 or 400w version),  in a multi rail configuration:

 

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/linear-regulated-psu-c-6305.html

 

So the total cost would be about $150.

First, I don't know if this idea could be used, and I also wouldn't really know which AC-DC regulator to use on each rail. And also which connectors to use.
 

Any help will be appreciated.
 

graciously
Anronio