Building a DIY Music Server

[Dev]

6 minutes ago, dctom said:

It has been a long wait  but I have now received the final component of my server/streamer build - a PH SR7 turbo, dual rail 12v 12amp, 19v 10amp power supply. Stephen informed me this turbo version is quite a bit closer, than the standard, to the dual regulator version in performance. It feels very solid built into it's Streacom case, comes in at around 12.75 Kg.

 

Looks fantastic. Have been thinking of ordering one with dual rail 12v and 19v to power my server. How long did it take to deliver ?

 

Please post your listening impression when it has broken-in. I am very eager to hear how does it compare to others.

[Dev]

32 minutes ago, Nenon said:

Let me be the first one to say it out loud.... this is crazy! :) 

 

Nah...I wouldn't call it crazy until you upgrade all 4 Buffalos to PF Buffalos and then the remaining two to PF clocks  as well 🤪🤪

[Dev]

7 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

Thoughts on this range of power supplies anyone? 

 

https://www.pachankostudio.com/products

 

 

One thing I must say that the chassis looks extremely beautiful and high-end, very much "Ayre" type and something I would like to see in my rack, off-coarse provided their performance is at par or beyond.

[Dev]

9 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

Having been burned by Adrian at TLS, I was naturally skeptical.  @seeteeyou confirmed my intuition to stay away.

 

Reading that thread I thought all issues were sorted out....but anyways, my comment was not for anyone to go ahead and buy it. I was merely commenting on the chassis which no one seems to offer. Pretty unique in that respect, regardless of what anyone claims.

 

[Dev]

30 minutes ago, dminches said:

I am a firm believer that the power supply is so critical with these servers.

power supply is critical to any component related to audio. If your DAC power supply has a broken design or your Amp’s power supply is busted, no matter how much DC4 you put into your server, will it sound good ? It won’t. The only reason why power supply for a server is deemed very especial is just because folks here are on the DIY route to these music servers. In other forums where folks mostly use commercially available gears, nobody talks about power supply of a server. Companies, like Ayre, Dagostino, Luxman, Esoreric, Gryphone and many more, won’t leave their power supply half hearted and still sound good. It’s just not possible.
 

The fact is, once you delve your hands into DIY for DACs and other analog gears, you will perhaps realize the important of power supply in all places makes for good audio. 

 

[Dev]

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

Did anyone build a 10th gen Intel i9-10900K or any of the Comet lake series ? I am curious how you are managing the higher TDP of 120Watts ?  Will the HDplex H5 be upto the task ? And what motherboards are you using with it ? Any comparison to the 9th gen will be nice ?

 

 

[Dev]

1 hour ago, bit01 said:

@Dev Happy Thaanksgiving! FYI

 

 

 

 

@bit01 awesome. Thanks you. How do you like the sound ? yes, my application will be basic Euphony/Roon playback without any upsampling. So I am assuming I can keep the temp within 50deg C. My 8-core Xeon E is able to keep within 50deg C with normal Roon playback. Do you hear any noise out of the CPU if you put your ear close to it ?

 

Have anyone compared between Gigabyte and Asus mobo for the 10th gen Intel ?

 

I am thinking Aus ROG MAXIMUS XII HERO but most Asus mobo seems to have shared 12V rail between the CPU EPS and 24-pin ATX. Not sure how to deal with this if I want to power the EPS separately. Anyone know ?

 

 

[Dev]

44 minutes ago, Nenon said:

Cut the +12V wires on the 24-pin ATX connector. 

 

You mean not power the +12v rail from the ATX, right ? In that case, do you know if any PCIe card without external power supply will work properly ? 

[Dev]

@Nenon are you still using the Asus C621e build ? Have you found a better chassis in terms of CPU temp and to fit the hdplex 800w inside ?

[Dev]

17 minutes ago, Nenon said:

The homemade passive cooling I did (and described earlier in this thread) works really good while using both HDPLEX H5 heatsinks. Here is how it looks:

 

 

I would call that pretty good. It has been running pretty much non-stop for 8 months.

 

That looks cool. Mine hovers in the mid 40's but the Xeon E's CPU core freq is higher than the Xeon Silver. 

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Nenon said:

No, I wasn't able to fit the Hdplex 800W inside. I mounted it outside on the heatsink, using the heatsink holes and long brass standoffs.

 

The ATX cable is going through the hole for the computer power button, which I don't really need. I had to run the wires through the hole and then snap into the 24-pin Molex. That cable is permanently embedded in the case currently :). 

 

The bottom chassis is my power supply in another Hdplex H5 chassis. You can notice that the 6-pin Molex that powers the Hdplex 800W also goes through the power button hole. Everything is maximized for the shortest possible cable length. It sounds better and costs less because that Mundorf silver/gold wire I use everywhere is expensive. 

 

A lot of DIY!

 

Indeed! Taiko seems to be thinking of contributing something in the DIY arena. Not sure what.

 

If I go with the Asus C621 Sage in H5 case, I would probably go the LPS route with the ATX rails. In that way I can skip the DC-ATX converter completely. Now this have me thinking - since the ATX will not use the 12V, I can do away with just two rails - 3.3V and 5V. Currently my server is powered from 4xDC-3 rails, so I need to see if I can repurpose some of the existing rails. While I am at it, I might think of upgrading the 12v EPS and 5V JCAT USB to DC-4 as well.

 

All the above are doable but my biggest worry is what s/w to run. As you have already figured out, Windows is the only option but then I am left with the need to tweak the hell out of it - the possibilities are endless :-) By any chance are you using AO or Fidelizer to optimize the Windows ? I have used AO a while back with Windows server 2016 when I had Jplay and it did very an excellent job but not sure what is the current state of affairs. 

 

 

38 minutes ago, Nenon said:

I am hoping a manufacturer would come up with passive cooling for this soon... something that's professionally made, not my ugly bended pipes and thermal epoxied glued coolers that I kept in the kitchen oven for 24 hours :))

 

Yes, that would really be nice. I think there is not lot of interest/business in this area for the manufacturers.

 

 

[Dev]

14 minutes ago, Exocer said:

Thanks @seeteeyou,I am looking forward trying Windows eventually.

 

For those who have tried both Linux and Windows, is there an opinion on which one sounds better with streaming? Or is this too general of a question, given the multitude of configurations/flavors possible with both?

 

Cheers,

 

 

I used to use Windows Server 2016 with AO/Jplay a while back and found Daphile (Linux based) to sound better. It was as if looking into a window that has been wiped real clean. I eventually moved AudiolInux and later Euphony which is what I use till date. But that was on a 4th Gen low power (S model) Intel proc (with motherboard clock upgraded to TCXO) and h/w along with power supply that was much inferior to what I have today. There has been a lot of advancements on the Windows front since I used and actually plan to revisit it again but its also a slippery slope with endless tweaks possible.

[Dev]

In terms of tweaking, Linux is a bigger rabbit hole than Windows if you are proficient not only in terms of OS customization but also you could modify at the source code level which is not possible with Windows.

 

when I moved from Windows to Daphile, I started liking what I heard but that slowly turned into a desire of wanting to do something more myself and that lead me to Audiolinux as Daphile is closed door. With Audiolinux, you would tweak something and then listen to compare even if I was happy prior to tweaking. It’s just the desire of wanting something more which slowly turned into an obsession. This went for a while, until I realized that I was no longer enjoying music as I used to but enjoyed tweaking on almost everyday basic. Nothing wrong tweaking, but this is not what I wanted and I am glad that there is Euphony to rescue. Not only Euphony sounds better than Audiolinux in “my” system, it also takes the headache of tweaking out of the equation by completely closing its doors (well only a very limited set which is very much manageable). 
 

it’s possible that Audiolinux hasn’t been tweaked to the extent it needs to be to compete with Euphony but I have no time nor desire to do this endlessly. This is why I am also reluctant to experiment with Windows. It’s my poison so far ☠️ But who knows I might change my mind later 😉
 

 

@lmitche you haven’t mentioned what those tweaks are which makes Audiolinux better than Euphony. Maybe it’s a trade secret or something you are selling ? Is there a tweaked version of Audiolinux that can be paid/bought ? I am not looking into NUC and low power stuff - that road has met a dead-end a while back and have no desire to go back. If you are selling something packaged (s/w only) similar to Euphony, please post some details as I am interested (and so are many here I guess), otherwise it really doesn’t help much for those of us who have no desire to tweak Audiolinux.

 

 

on SQ and how much does OS, cabling and h/w, power supply helps - IMO, they are all equally important and I would put equal weights on each of them. To get the best SQ out of a particular system, they all have equal role to play and has a cumulative effect to the overall sound.

 

[Dev]

11 minutes ago, ted_b said:

Do you mean as a server, or as an endpoint/NAA? 

 

Its a server and connects straight to DAC via USB. No physical endpoint but when I run Roon, I use SytlusEP as a Roon endpoint which mimics NAA. So the same physical server runs both a Roon Core and a Roon endpoint. This is something especial to Euphony.

 

There is another player in Euphony called Sylus which sounds better than Roon but their UI/interface is not as sleek as Roon. So for serious listening, I switch to Stylus and I think many Euphony users does that as well. 

[Dev]

24 minutes ago, Exocer said:

 

You have encouraged me to try Euphony Stylus this evening and I am smiling from ear to ear with what I am hearing. The only downside is I was going to purchase an HQPE license just for the capability to use convolution filters (I have created some in REW recently and was very happy with them in combination with HQPE). I see no way to import these filters into Euphony based HQPE...so I need to read up on how to do that or reach out to support.

 

 

Get in touch with Željko, the Euphony developer is very helpful. I should not post his email address publicly but PM me if you need it or use https://euphony-audio.com/contact/

 

 

24 minutes ago, Exocer said:

I will purchase a Euphony license because it sounds A LOT better than what i'm used to (in my system).

 

CPU is running 4 degrees cooler, the UI and mobile app are working well and i'm hearing major improvements in the PRAT department with zero CPU isolation or tweaks. All i've done is set tracks to buffer 100% before playing and enable Ram Root.

 

yeah, it can't get any simpler than this...couple of clicks and enjoy the music.

 

Btw, I should note that I have no affiliation with Euphony in any shape or form 😄

 

 

 

 

[Dev]

6 hours ago, lmitche said:

Hi Dev,

 

It is indeed easy to buy and install Euphony, plus the results are good.  Clearly there is a market for that, and it is terrific that it works for you and so many others. I am happy to build solutions using Euphony and listen to it, as reference, on a regular basis.

 

Yes, I do ship most systems here with custom Audiolinux almost always running Roon.

 

 

@lmitcheLarry, I am still not clear if you are providing an optimized/tweaked version of AudioLinux separately, just like Euphony ?

 

Its interesting that AudioLinux is not optimized out of the box for Audio, after all its named as "Audio"Linux 🤪

 

 

 

Quote

I am detecting a trend moving away from Roon led by Takio Audio, Grimm Audio and others, so the next few years will be interesting.

 

PS Audio, who is (or shall I say was) a Roon supporter, started coding there music server (its called Octave I think) a while back, long before anyone else, I think. They actually found quiet early that Roon can't be optimized with their hardware to sound its best.

 

Another example is Aurrender, one of the most popular music server, does not even support Roon from day one because of the same reasons. I guess there are many other examples as well. The trend has been there for sometime now.

 

 

 

Quote

Personally I'd like to see Roon SQ improve, as I love the user interface as a music discovery tool.

 

Trust me, you are not the only one 😄

[Dev]

 

24 minutes ago, dminches said:

I am not sure that is why Aurender doesn’t support Roon.  They wrote their own music and cataloging software. I don’t think they ever intended on allowing 3rd party software to tun on their hardware.  Correct me if I am wrong.

 

The reason why Aurrender has written their own software from the start is exactly the reason why PS Audio started writing it but at later point when they realized Roon is not cutting it. To get the best out of any hardware, their has to be a closer/tighter integration between s/w and h/w and this is probably not possible with Roon (or for that matter any other 3rd party software) as a audio playback. They can't control Roon, nor they have any control over the quality. So you are basically leaving the sound quality of a $20k music server at the mercy of others. If I were manufacturing it, I would have gone down the very exact path that Aurrender did.

[Dev]

MPD is used by many well known manufacturers. Its not surprising. Carry Audio had faced similar litigation issues with open source license. MPD is open source and can be modified/improved by any manufacturers which you can't do with Roon. That was the point and it also goes to show how much can be had from open source.

 

You are just looking at one or two, but in reality there are countless manufacturers, irrespective of Audio, who are probably in GPL licensing violation today. Remember, Linux is an operating system that runs in your smartphone, to your household smart devices (modems, routers, switches, nas, fridge, TVs, you name it) to gigantic devices, like core/edge routers used in ISP to some very sophisticated hardware used in security. 

 

I don't want to mix up licensing/GPL violation  issues with sound quality - they are two different things.

[Dev]

Looks cool. Full size slots are very welcome but not a deal breaker. I don't have an issue with bigger chassis - my current power supply chassis is 440mm(W)x400mm(D). Man, I only fear this thing will be pricey for DIY 😬

 

 

 

[Dev]

1 hour ago, Nenon said:

1. Target cost - my plan is to try to get this recipe around $10K. Time will tell if we would succeed or not.

I suspect it will be out the door for many for the DIY market. Will there be any option for the chassis only ?

 

1 hour ago, Nenon said:

2. Power supply - I can't reveal much yet, but if all goes as planned, I doubt people would be thinking much about changing the power supply. Let's keep it at that for now. More to follow. 

I own’t ask for details but is it from Taiko or SJ ?

[Dev]

I am noticing that many are looking to build an Extreme as DIY with all sort of requirements - best parts, best chassis, best power supply, TAS, Taiko USB card, etc. If this is going to mimic the Taiko Extreme as close as possible, I wonder what's left of Extreme ? I am sure Taiko is not going to give away their IP but its good to understand how far apart or how close this build will be from it so that some can decide if it makes sense just to buy the Extreme instead ?

 

Some do DIY for the love of it, irrespective of the cost, some do it for the savings, while many are in both the categories. I belong to both and for me its critical to understand the price to performance ratio. If I need to spend $15k for this build, I would probably have double thoughts on spending couple of grand more and getting a commercial server instead. What do others think ?

[Dev]

52 minutes ago, AME said:

 

It was a lot of handwork, but I quess a lot can also be done with an computer controlled milling machine.

I will drop an email to Larry from HDPlex to see if he is interested.

 

Definitely send a mail to Larry. A while back he said he couldn’t do it due to lack of time and commitment. If you have a blue print, he might be interested in taking it forward. Let us know what he says.

 

btw, very nice build. Many over here are interested in similar builds but due to lack of chassis and cooling, it hasn’t moved very far.

[Dev]

14 minutes ago, Nenon said:

I have to put a lot of time and energy trying to explain why point to point soldered motherboard / CPU would not work

 

2 minutes ago, MarcelNL said:

Please don't feel the need to start to moderate, I'll moderate myself given the fact that questions seeking more fundamental answers don't seem to resonate.

 

wow....seriously ? are you aware of something called SI ? and there are dedicated SI engineers employed by companies who does high speed digital design ?

[Dev]

Fantastic news and development.

 

I won't be surprised if some manufacturers or Taiko develops an Audiophile quality AC ATX power supply in the future. Intel's dynamic power consumption seems to get steeper with new processor lines. 

 

I am not too clear if the DC power supply for the DIY project is orthogonal to this DC-ATX or they both will work in conjunction ?  

[Dev]

7 hours ago, Nenon said:

 

A suggested list of parts and schematics will be provided to make the unregulated AC to DC linear power supply. It would consist of:

Transformer —> Rectifier —> Choke —> Filtering capacitors; or to be more complete:

IEC inlet/fuse --> SoftStart module -->Transformer —> Rectifier —> Choke —> Filtering capacitors.

 

That unregulated LPS will be tweaked to work with Taiko's ATX module. The output of the unregulated LPS goes to the input of Taiko's module. And we would have:

IEC inlet/fuse --> SoftStart module -->Transformer —> Rectifier —> Choke —> Filtering capacitors --> Taiko ATX.

 

The Taiko ATX module has two 8-pin EPS connector outputs, one 24-pin ATX connector and an Auxiliary connector with (+5V and +12V output) for future use. You will need one or two EPS cables (depending on the motherboard used) and one ATX cable to connect the Taiko ATX to your motherboard.

 

That is the entire power supply. The Taiko ATX is super transparent. Tweaking the unregulated power supply has a significant impact on the overall sound. This is one area where we can tweak things. This is also an area where we can have different versions - a more affordable version and a more exotic version. We can potentially add a solderless option to make things easy for those who like building computers but would like to stay away from soldering. I am sure that would be a popular request. 

 

This unregulated power supply is something that people can do on their own with parts of their choice. Or use the recommended parts. Taiko would try to arrange stocking the transformer I really liked, to make that more accessible (you have to order hundred(s) to get it). That would be the recommended transformer but you can get whatever transformer you like. The rest is still work in progress. 

Nice...

I won’t ask for the details but I am simply assuming the Taiko DC-ATX is all capable of powering the dual Xeon and beyond (for future extensibility). I am also assuming $10k ballpark price that you mentioned earlier includes this DC-ATX ?

 

That reminds me, the cooling solution will only include 3647 ? Or does Taiko plan to release other sockets as well ?

[Dev]

it will be very useful if a single rail DC4 (reg+recap+transformer) can fit inside the Taiko DIY chassis to power the JCAT XE, along with other unregulated power supply parts and DC-ATX. The JCAT has a molex connector which can be used to power it internally. Possible or is it too tight and can't handle the heat dissipation ?