Building a DIY Music Server

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, MarcelNL said:

That sounds very plausible and so far my findings concur with this (except the dual Xeon, never heard those...wich probably is good for my wallet).

To it appears that adding a great LPS to a low powered computer is easier, and cheaper than supplying hundreds of clean (peak) watts to a beast of a server.

Perhaps I should try pair a vintage tube PSU (Klangfilm) with a computer :-)

 

The best digital sound I have ever heard was short before the Jcat USB card died, I'm now trying to get the Pink Faun I2S card to work but it seems that it is incompatible with my (Intel) NUC (wish they had a compatibility list...).

 

 

I have a vague memory that the Pink Faun I2S card has a dependency on an AMD processor.

[lmitche]

5 minutes ago, MarcelNL said:

That is indeed what Piero told me, and he worked with PF on the OS for their server...so the search for a computer I2S continues and the PF is likely going back.

It may be cheaper to move to an AMD processor and motherboard.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, Dev said:

 

 

@lmitcheLarry, I am still not clear if you are providing an optimized/tweaked version of AudioLinux separately, just like Euphony ?

 

Its interesting that AudioLinux is not optimized out of the box for Audio, after all its named as "Audio"Linux 🤪

 

 

 

 

PS Audio, who is (or shall I say was) a Roon supporter, started coding there music server (its called Octave I think) a while back, long before anyone else, I think. They actually found quiet early that Roon can't be optimized with their hardware to sound its best.

 

Another example is Aurrender, one of the most popular music server, does not even support Roon from day one because of the same reasons. I guess there are many other examples as well. The trend has been there for sometime now.

 

 

 

 

Trust me, you are not the only one 😄

 

Hi Dev,

 

No, I don't sell the software separately from the hardware.

 

Larry

[lmitche]

OK, so thanks to everyone for your thoughtful feedback on the role of software in the sound quality equation. While there seems to be no overall consensus, the level of passion this topic engenders is impressive.

 

Nenon is right, I am interested in the 80 - 20 rule of music server sound quality. It would be sad to see people think that great digital playback can only be achieved with exotic power supplies and music servers that cost as much as a new car.

 

Enjoy your systems and be well,

 

Larry

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, MarcelNL said:

pls tell me the lighting comes off....I don't want any noisy LED's in that place in my computer build if I can avoid it... 

StreamFidelity is right, the Corsair Platinum memory is excellent, but the 2400mhz model is no longer manufactured. It's strength is the high quality Samsung B-die modules used to achieve low latency performance. These same modules are used in the Apacer memory that Nenon introduced to this forum.

 

Take a look at my project list where amongst other topics you can find links to other B-die options from a variety of manufacturers besides Apacer and Corsair:

 

I agree with your thinking about the bling RGB lighting. Thankfully you can find many dark modules as well.

[lmitche]

39 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Now a CRITICAL question in relation to server storage.

 

I've learned that SSD generate a ton of noise which gets dumped into the 5v power line, and isolating this power line or filtering it has a big effect of lifting the veil. In my first (and only) attempt at building an audio PC I addressed this by getting a simple SATA-USB splitter cable which split the power line to a standard USB plug so that I can then plug it into a common 5v battery pack to completely isolate it. Now, that only works with SSDs.

 

So, what about NVMe drives? How do these sound? Do these need filters and/or power isolation as well? Does the memory architecture matter? Should you just stick with the working SSD solution? Is it better just to give up, put all the noisy stuff into the back-end system and focus clean-up effort on the renderer?

It really depends on NVME drive and usage you are talking about. Here is what I have experienced.

 

The Optane NVME drives are the best when used for the OS and music apps. They are too small for storing most music libraries.  During playback the OS and music players tend to write a lot of short bursty data and the Optanes excel at that kind of traffic. These fast service times, mean the operations are short in time.

 

Larger NVMEs for music storage are mostly read-only, and in my testing range all over the place in terms of  SQ.  The Samsung drives are the worst for SQ, and the Intel and Sabrent Rocket series the best. My experience is by no means exhaustive and only include samples from these three manufacturers.

 

SQ from of all of these drives benefits from NVME coolers and EFI absorption materials.

[lmitche]

3 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

I will make that comparison again, I have an external HDD with ly library and an internal SSD with PSU outside of the computer with the same files. I know that playing from memory sounded better for both options, yet that is bested by Optane. I am most interested in learning if copying from the external HDD sounds different than copying from external SSD and then how it sounds if I connect via f.e. ethernet. 

When comparing HDDs consider 3.5 inch as well as 2.5 inch models. The former takes 12 volts for the motor and actuator, and 5 volts for the signal carrying circuits with separate circuits for each. A quality LPS for the 12 volt USB enclosure power will positively influence SQ. Likewise USB drive enclosures power the the actuator and signal carrying circuits with USB Vbus power at 5 volts.

 

2.5 inch drives don't offer the same level of flexibility.

 

With either type of HDD enclosure connection to a USB PCIE card allowing external power, like JCAT or Startech can benefit SQ.

 

Lastly USB 3.1 Gen 2 at 10gbps sounds slightly better here.

 

Welcome to the music storage can of worms. Nevertheless, IME,  music stored on 3.5 inch HDDs in a USB enclosure can sound as good as any other storage option. The modern NVME drive approach is much simpler, especially if you have a spare M.2 or PCIE slot and can avoid the PCH.

 

 

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, MarcelNL said:

I only have an external 'no name" PCIe USb card left, my JCat USB died....

 

I will likely only test what HDD/SDD I have lying around, I don't plan to test across HDD types and brands simply because I don't have more than perhaps 2 lying around. (not even sure if I have 2,5 and 3.5", the external 1.5Tb external HDD is likley old enough to be 3,5")

 

It's either going to be NAS/server, or USB SDD /HDD  for me, with a small chance for PCIe IF I can get past POST when removing the graphics card from the MB. That Pink Faun I2S card is FAT...

Yeah, the GPU thing is another can of worms. Disabling GPUs in software can work well if GPUs are difficult or impossible  to remove.

 

I look forward to mainstream support of external GPUs that are easy to disconnect.

[lmitche]

6 minutes ago, MarcelNL said:

Daphile automatically shuts down graphics after booting and enabling the network, it is designed to run headless.

The problem is rather that the MB likely thinks it needs a GPU anddoes not let me past POST...

You can usually disable the "halt on F1 errors" behavior in the bios boot settings menu.

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

thanks all!

I once upon a time built a Le Monstre 7W class A amp by Jean Hiraga, I have something akin to that PSU in mind as the general idea is the same, having enough headroom with large current swings at low voltages requires plenty capacitors to store enough Joules in the PSU. 

There has been a lot written about PC PSU choices in these pages. I will attempt a quick summary.

 

There are few commercial choices of LPSes at 10 amps or more for powering servers with motherboards using ATX 24 pin power inputs. Three major manufacturers are successfully used by many people here, Hdplex, Paul Hynes and Sean Jacobs but there may be others. 

 

Use of a 19 volt DC to DC ATX supply can be used to split out and derive the various voltages used for the ATX connector. These DC to DC supplies can be used to power the ATX connectors only, or to power the 12 volt CPU/EPU input as well. Most of my machines use split 12 and 19 volt power with one (multi-rail) or two (single rail) supplies.

 

Hdplex makes 3 different models of DC to DC ATX supplies. There are also several new models from a variety of vendors under development.

 

Hdplex also make a power supply with ATX outputs with long cables and connectors to connect to the 24 pin and 8pin inputs.

 

There are as many different opinions about the best approach, and related SQ, as there are members on this forum. Beware!  LPS discussions can get a bit heated as people are passionate about what works for them. Generally the consensus appears to be that the more you spend, the better things sound.

[lmitche]

On 1/20/2021 at 6:59 AM, LTG2010 said:

It might be the Ram refresh rate, tRF-c, the slower the refresh / longer the cycle, the better the sound. You can adjust this in some bios, but I couldn't find a setting in Sage bios.

the slower the refresh / longer the cycle, the better the sound

 

due to lower current demand.

[lmitche]

On 1/27/2021 at 4:20 AM, Nenon said:

The ideal endpoint would be one that does not have a network connection at all.

 

Doesn't the ASUS WS C621E SAGE motherboard used in your Taiko Audio Extreme clone with it's two sets of ram and two processors connected with the Intel Ultra Path Interconnect (UPI) match your description of an ideal endpoint and server? 

 

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, Darryl R said:

Ethernet seems like a lot of baggage for those of us with local data who only need it for playback commands (occasional server management could be disconnected)

Darryl,

 

I agree, ethernet is the root cause of many of the evils in computer audio. My suspicion is that it is the physical layer that causes most of the problems. USB has it's own problems, but we know more about taming them.

 

Lately, I have been thinking about building a switch using USB 3 instead of ethernet connections for the device end. This would be rather like an OTG connection for android devices. Of course there would need to be traditional wired or wireless connection to a router.

 

Larry

 

 

 

[lmitche]

On 1/31/2021 at 10:32 AM, Darryl R said:

 

Hi Larry,

 

I was wondering about Bluetooth for mobile access.  But there is the distance limit, and my last few motherboards seemed to couple it with Ethernet, at least in the BIOS when I went to disable it after adding a fiber NIC.  For you hardware-smart guys that have a creative desire, homegrown gadgets are the ones that eventually become businesses.  Again, I keep thinking about that long interview with the owner and designer of Shunyata who said his hobby became his full-time job.  I'll look up USB OTG.

Yes, many small sized M.2 2230 form factor wifi cards carry Bluetooth radios that seem connect via a (Virtual?) USB controller. This is alongside a PCIE X1 connection to the wifi portion of the card. I have never tried bluetooth as a music signal carrier in a serious way, but will have a think about it. It could be a missed opportunity.

 

Curiously, these same M.2 2230 form factor pcie slots can hold a SDcard or micro SDcard which opens some interesting music storage possibilities, especially for smaller libraries with 512gb micro sdcards in the $60 to $70 range.

[lmitche]

7 hours ago, genvirt said:

Hi!

In my build because of some high t’ issue I reassembled cooling pipes and last time I somehow missed a recommended pipes installation and now it’s looks like this.

So the question is if such installation is OK too and not impacting cooling or it better put it in a recommended way?

Unfortunately Euphony that I’m using not supporting AMD cpu t’ measure (hope they soon will add it) and it difficult to obtain this info on-line (if someone can give me an advice how to get it in my condition without being load windows (bios always shows higher t’ than win monitoring apps showed me once) - thank You!).

So, what You say?

 

Your heat pipe installation looks fine. In the Hdplex manual the pipes you have on the outside are placed in the inside slots first and so on. The only impact is that the end of the pipes don't line up in cast iron channels on the outside heatsink. Assuming you used thermal grease for the full length of the pipes in the iron channels, you are good to go.  This is just an aesthetic difference.

[lmitche]

26 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

How do you find out which PCIE ports are connected direct to CPU? 
 

My motherboard is Asus ROG Maximus X1 Formula Z390

 

My 2 cards are connected as follows

 

PCIEX16_1 — Pink Faun USB

 

PCIEX16_2 — JCAT Eth card

 

32GB Optane connected to M.2_1

With ASUS boards, if you read the technical specification top to bottom on the website or in the manual it usually tells you. 

 

For your board, PCIE slots 1 and 2 are direct to cpu. All the M.2 slots connect via the PCH. 

 

In the old days block diagrams with this information were published in the motherboard manuals. I don't know why they stopped this.

 

Few new Intel gaming motherboards have any M.2 slots direct to cpu. X570 and B450 AMD motherboards often have 2 direct M.2 slots, but the new B550s are all one M.2 direct to cpu. X299 boards are almost all direct to cpu.

[lmitche]

18 hours ago, mikicasellas said:

With the i7-10700K and having returned the Rog Strix Z490-E, im towards the Z590 which are compatible with my actual CPU and easier to upgrade to Gen 11th, so far these are the ones that im trying to decide.

 

- Asus Motherboard Intel Z590, ROG Maximus XIII Hero.....$499.99

- Gigabyte Z590 AORUS Master...........................................$409.00

- Asus Motherboard Intel Z590, ROG Strix Z590-E..............$379.00

- Gigabyte Z590 AORUS Ultra...............................................$319.00

 

Much of the differences that i have read is about more connectivity, internal audio, VRM and fans on the costlier ones, im willing to get any of these ($$) if they really have something to add in the final performance of the audio signal.

 

Any suggestions ?

 

Thanks !!

 

 

Mike,

 

Which OS and music player are you running?

[lmitche]

13 minutes ago, mikicasellas said:

 

Hi Larry,

 

Im using Euphony...So far !

Mike,

 

From what I tell with a quick glance the two ASUS boards below are essentially the same, with different plastic and metal bits.

 

- Asus Motherboard Intel Z590, ROG Maximus XIII Hero.....$499.99

- Asus Motherboard Intel Z590, ROG Strix Z590-E...............$379.00

 

It is hard to believe there will be a difference in SQ between the two.

 

The good news is that these z590 boards include the return of dual M.2 direct to CPU slots that went entirely missing with the z490 series. Also, the ASUS B550 AMD line dropped one of the two direct to cpu M.2slots. This was a nasty trend and it is good to see the return of two direct to cpu slots on a dual channel memory Intel motherboard. I hope the next generation of AMD motherboards does the same.

[lmitche]

3 hours ago, Dev said:

Yes, that's a good part but there is a catch - the M.2 direct will only work with 11th gen proc

Hi Dev,

 

Just to be clear, here is what the specs say:

 

Intel®11th &10th Gen Processors*

M.2_1 slot (Key M), type 2242/2260/2280/22110

- Only Intel® 11th Core™ processors support PCIe 4.0 x4 mode, this slot will be disabled for other CPUs

M.2_2 slot (Key M), type 2242/2260/2280/22110

- Intel® 11th processors support PCIe 4.0 x4 mode

- Intel® 10th processors support PCIe 3.0 x4 mode

So one M.2 slot is supported with the 10th gen, and two M.2slots with the 11th gen.

 

Nevertheless, more ways to connect direct to cpu is great. With an 11th gen processor four direct to cpu connections are possible, such as two NVME drives (boot and music storage) in the 2 M.2 slots, and a USB card and network in the two direct PCIE slots. Seldom used GPU cards can go into the PCH based slot when required.

[lmitche]

8 hours ago, Dev said:

In other words, any GPU card with x16 cannot work in tandem and you are only left with x8 + x4.

You are right, the motherboard specs are confusing.

 

Yes, x8 +x4  is correct. The 10th gen has three PCIE configurations for 16 lanes - 1x16, 2x8, 1x8+2x4.

 

Intel 11th gen has three PCIE configurations for it's 20 lanes 1x16+1x4, 2x8+1x4, 1x8+3x4, so 11th gen is the way to go. Intel mainstream processors have caught up to AMD Ryzen chips with this configuration.

 

With the 10th generation Intel processors, I guess for a gaming machine where 1 or 2 GPU cards were required at x16, or x8 + x8, the two PCH based M.2 slots are to be used instead.

[lmitche]

On 4/19/2021 at 11:36 AM, Nenon said:

But it needs to be fed by higher voltage properly designed unregulated LPS.

How about tying together 12 and 19 volt rails in a serial DC cable from a high current two rail supply or two separate high current supplies? It seems like 31 volts would be ideal. Indeed two 19 volts supplies may work as well.

 

 

 

[lmitche]

42 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Since 10GE SFP+ sounded better than 1GE SFP to begin with, do you think that 25GE SFP28 might be worth a gamble or otherwise?

My guess is that the law of diminishing returns kicks in above 10GBPS, but who knows. The only way to know is to test this. I'll look for some cheap SFP28s on ebay and if found may give this a try.

[lmitche]

13 hours ago, Gurkel said:

why are you building super computers or at least machines which are expensive enough to buy one and have enough cpu capacity to idle around most of the time?

 

Good question. Perhaps there are capabilities other than CPU capacity in these "super computer" machines that impact SQ in a positive way?

[lmitche]

On 5/7/2022 at 1:03 PM, bobfa said:

The SDTrans384 SD card Transport is one of the best sounding devices I have in-house.  Give it a great power supply and it is even better, Break out fancy clocks, other power rails very interesting. 

 

BUT

 

It only plays WAV files, in the order that they are on the directory.  The UI/UX is through a dot-matrix display and five buttons.  IT is supplied as a bare board device.

 

The "software" only comes into play when the user is operating the device.  The FPGA takes over once playback has started.

 

So sounds great, but the UX sucks.  

 

RJF

Your description reminds me of a turntable UX.

[lmitche]

5 hours ago, ray-dude said:

500lb hydraulic lifts are your friend ;)

 

when I first got mine I had to enlist the civilians in the house to help lift it. They were beyond terrified that they might drop it

Wow, do you have to turn the crank to keep it playing or just to start it like a Model T?