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2 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

It would have been nice if it worked. I had done this experiment before and have now repeated it with Taiko Audio DC-ATX and 2 Keces P8. I use ROG MAXIMUS XI FORMULA.

 

The nice thing about the Keces P8 is the display of the voltage and power consumption. This means that there can be no mistake about where the electricity comes from.

 

1. Use case:
- Keces P8 20V to Taiko Audio DC-ATX
- Keces P8 12V to 8 pin CPU EPS
- Taiko Audio DC-ATX 12V to 4 pin CPU EPS

 

No power was drawn from the Keces P8 12V! The audio PC booted successfully anyway.

 

2. Use case:
- Keces P8 20V to Taiko Audio DC-ATX
- Keces P8 12V to 4 pin CPU EPS
- Taiko Audio DC-ATX 12V to 8 pin CPU EPS

 

No power was drawn from the Keces P8 12V! The audio PC booted successfully anyway.

 

Beware of placebo effects and measure specifically where the electricity is coming from. 😉

 

I think it only works if the 8 pin and 4 pin connections are fed from the same LPS. Then the larger cable diameter may help something.

Too bad it didn’t work with the Taiko.

 

I can only speak with 2 Keces P8… in terms of measurements, the first P8 draws about 3.7A on the Keces display and the second P8 a bit less than 1A on the Keces display.

 

So both P8 do have a measurable power draw when they power the CPU

 

To be more precise, my first P8 is 12V/8A single rail and the second one is dual rail 12V/5V with 4A each (I use 12v for the CPU, obviously). Second 5V rail is currently unused. DC cabling wise, it’s a mix of Ghent / Canare 4S and FIS audio.

 

Also now that I have a second P8 on the CPU, I have enough amps to run the CPU completely unthrottled if I wanted to (the 8A single rail limit was not enough to boot Euphony before due to high peak current draw of my 3950x). The reason I did try successfully but didn’t do it permanently is due to passive cooling case.

 

2 more data points that I considered before writing my post that I didn’t mention:

 

1) a friend of mine who has an advanced audio PC has a Teradak ATX LPS and mentioned to me the same SQ jump when he used an additional rail from his Teradak to power the 4 pin on his MB

 

2) a forumer here with the HDPlex 500w also advised me to do the same ie connect the 4 pin and mentioned significant gains as well (that was in pm)

 

However neither of the above can positively prove that the 4 pin is used by the MB/LPS, something that I can do since the Keces P8 has an amperage display.

 

The gain in SQ is unmistakable and can be easily repeated. With those independent reports I don’t think it’s placebo but as always, YMMV since it’s all 100% subjective :-)

 

On a similar subject, to give context, I tested for my PC:

1-Teradak ATX LPS 650W (I’m not sure why nobody talk about those, they go up to 800W I think) vs

2- the brand new ATX HDplex LPS 500w that shipped a few weeks ago

3- vs 2 Keces P8

4- vs 3 Keces P8

with both

a- HDplex 400w ATX DC to DC converter

b -vs HDplex 800w ATX DC to DC converter (short story the 800w is better)

5- Seasonic Prime TX 700W fanless (one of the lowest ripple noise available)

6- Seasonic 450W fanless

 

many combinations as you can imagine. The best was 4.b.The only constant is that LPS direct to CPU was always best. Maybe I can do a test report one day…

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2 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

It would have been nice if it worked. I had done this experiment before and have now repeated it with Taiko Audio DC-ATX and 2 Keces P8. I use ROG MAXIMUS XI FORMULA.

 

The nice thing about the Keces P8 is the display of the voltage and power consumption. This means that there can be no mistake about where the electricity comes from.

 

1. Use case:
- Keces P8 20V to Taiko Audio DC-ATX
- Keces P8 12V to 8 pin CPU EPS
- Taiko Audio DC-ATX 12V to 4 pin CPU EPS

 

No power was drawn from the Keces P8 12V! The audio PC booted successfully anyway.

 

2. Use case:
- Keces P8 20V to Taiko Audio DC-ATX
- Keces P8 12V to 4 pin CPU EPS
- Taiko Audio DC-ATX 12V to 8 pin CPU EPS

 

No power was drawn from the Keces P8 12V! The audio PC booted successfully anyway.

 

Beware of placebo effects and measure specifically where the electricity is coming from. 😉

 

I think it only works if the 8 pin and 4 pin connections are fed from the same LPS. Then the larger cable diameter may help something.

Thanks. This is similar to what I would test, except, my 12V would come from a separate rail of the same LPS. I doubt my results would be any different than yours. Not courageous enough to try either...

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By the way, I can 100% relate to the P8 drawing no current (0 on the display). That’s what happened when I tried to power the CPU with:

- Keces 12V + any of the Seasonics, or

- Keces 12V + 1 rail of Teradak, or

- Keces 12V + 1 rail of HDplex 500w.
 

Same exact issue. Not surprised that Keces + Taiko leads to the same result ie Keces becomes “unused” with 0 amp.

 

But for some reason, it did work with the 2 Keces. If someone knows why, I’m interested to know.
 

So why did I insist so much with so many failed attempts? Well… the reason I kept trying is because my friend (he’s been researching audio PC very very deeply for many years) *insisted* that I must connect the 4 pin for best SQ. He was absolutely right. Back then when I selected my MB, I made sure it had the extra CPU 4 pin. Mind you, he’s the kind of guy who uses 3 different *types* of storage for OS, music application and music files for optimal SQ after many many tests. A deep topic for another day too. Because each music storage type has a different sound in combination with what it’s used for.
 

Forgot to mention: it’s all at your risks and perils if you choose to try!

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4 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

I think it only works if the 8 pin and 4 pin connections are fed from the same LPS

Can you use 4pin from taiko EPS 2 to power the 4pin CPU or it will not work like this ? I see all of them have same volt 12/GND like EPS1.

 

1212456256_ScreenShot2021-06-13at5_13_30PM.thumb.png.73951d98c76abf51fcd814a5c4788024.png

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2 hours ago, Topk said:

But for some reason, it did work with the 2 Keces. If someone knows why, I’m interested to know.

 

We may not be talking about the same things. I also use two Keces Single P8. But I only use the 8 pin CPU EPS.

In my opinion, the question revolved around using the 4 pin CPU EPS as well. So ultimately to use the CPU EPS over 12 pins in total. That is only possible with an LPS.

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14 minutes ago, NanoSword said:

Can you use 4pin from taiko EPS 2 to power the 4pin CPU or it will not work like this ?

 

Sure it's possible. I use an 8 pin Molex cable on both sides for this. 4 pins remain free on the side of the motherboard. But I only did this for my experiment with 2 Keces P8. Otherwise, of course, I took the 8 pin on the motherboard. What is the point of only using the 4 pins?

 

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However, this constellation cannot keep up with a direct CPU supply bypassing the Taiko ATX as shown above. Nenon has said that this requires an unregulated LPS to take advantage of the Taiko ATX.

Grigg Audio Solutions Owner

StreamFidelitys Setup

Sonus Faber Amati Futura | T + A M10 | T + A SDV 3100 HV | fis Audio PC | HFX RipNAS Solid V4 | GigaWatt PC4-EVO + | Afterdark Buffalo Switch | Solidsteel HJ-3 / HY-A

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26 minutes ago, NanoSword said:

I see all of them have same volt 12/GND like EPS1.

 

I just see that my Taiko circuit diagram looked different. EPS 2 was still called PCIe and EPS 1 was called CPU.

 

So another use case would be the connection with
Taiko ATX EPS 1 to 8 pin CPU EPS &

EPS 2 to 4 pin CPU EPS?

 

Grigg Audio Solutions Owner

StreamFidelitys Setup

Sonus Faber Amati Futura | T + A M10 | T + A SDV 3100 HV | fis Audio PC | HFX RipNAS Solid V4 | GigaWatt PC4-EVO + | Afterdark Buffalo Switch | Solidsteel HJ-3 / HY-A

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5 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

I just see that my Taiko circuit diagram looked different. EPS 2 was still called PCIe and EPS 1 was called CPU.

 

So another use case would be the connection with
Taiko ATX EPS 1 to 8 pin CPU EPS &

EPS 2 to 4 pin CPU EPS?

This is my exact question, can you try this method to connect both 8 pin and 4 pin at the same time .

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55 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

We may not be talking about the same things. I also use two Keces Single P8. But I only use the 8 pin CPU EPS.

In my opinion, the question revolved around using the 4 pin CPU EPS as well. So ultimately to use the CPU EPS over 12 pins in total. That is only possible with an LPS.

spacer.png

 

 

Sure it's possible. I use an 8 pin Molex cable on both sides for this. 4 pins remain free on the side of the motherboard. But I only did this for my experiment with 2 Keces P8. Otherwise, of course, I took the 8 pin on the motherboard. What is the point of only using the 4 pins?

 

spacer.png

 

However, this constellation cannot keep up with a direct CPU supply bypassing the Taiko ATX as shown above. Nenon has said that this requires an unregulated LPS to take advantage of the Taiko ATX.

Just to clarify on what I’m doing. I want to make sure there’s no confusion and sorry if I repeat myself. 
 

First, I use 3 Keces P8 in total to power my MB and CPU. 

 

1) 2 Keces P8 on the CPU alone (and both are delivering power on the amp meter): 1 P8 on the 8 pin EPS connector and 1 P8 on the 4 pin EPS connector. 12 pins used in total. Using 12 pins is possible with 2 Keces P8 in my case.

 

you can see the 8 pin connector and the 4 pin connector on the diagram below in the red circle. Again, 2 Keces P8 LPS used (one single rail and one dual rail - not sure if it matters, but for full clarity if someone wants to reproduce). No converter involved.
 

BTW the power is not split evenly. The first Keces on the 8 pin draws about 4A and the second Keces on the 4 pin draws about 1A - when playing music (peaks are higher).

 

In the future, I might try 2 Keces 12v single rail and will report back if/when I do that. 

 

2) 1 Keces P8 on the HDplex 800w converter for the MB only. I’m not using the EPS connector from the HDplex since the CPU is direct from LPS x2 which has better SQ in my tests. The only cable coming out of HDplex to MB is the 24 pin (because I don’t use SATA).

 

So 3 P8 in total. I hope it clarifies what I’m doing.

 

994E94AB-F90F-47BD-9E23-F7E1C222BB78.jpeg

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16 minutes ago, NanoSword said:

This is my exact question, can you try this method to connect both 8 pin and 4 pin at the same time .

 

Ok i did it. 😉

 

Of course, this is only possible with one Keces P8 (20V). It works. Unfortunately I cannot say whether the motherboard accepts the 4 pin CPU LPS but I suspect it will.

 

In a direct, quick listening comparison, however, 2 Keces P8 are still better. The bass is more accentuated and the space opens up better.

Grigg Audio Solutions Owner

StreamFidelitys Setup

Sonus Faber Amati Futura | T + A M10 | T + A SDV 3100 HV | fis Audio PC | HFX RipNAS Solid V4 | GigaWatt PC4-EVO + | Afterdark Buffalo Switch | Solidsteel HJ-3 / HY-A

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50 minutes ago, Nenon said:

 

Motherboards typically have only one 12V EPS rail. Even if there are multiple EPS connectors, they feed the same rail. Those Molex pins are rated at 5A. So an 8-pin connector can provide 20A (or 240W). For obvious reasons some motherboards may need more than 20A. And the solution for that is to add more EPS connectors. An 8-pin + 4-pin connectors would give you 30A (360W) theoretical limit. An 8-pin + 8-pin would give you 40A (480W). The dual CPU ASUS Sage motherboard has two 8-pin connectors and one 6-pin connector which can supply 55A (660W).

 

What happens when you connect the 4-pin and the 8-pin from two different power supplies?

If the power supplies have different output impedance, the power supply with lower impedance would be the better voltage source. In the case of Taiko ATX and Keces competing to deliver the 12V voltage, the Taiko ATX wins by a big margin and the Keces does not do anything. Hence, "No power was drawn from the Keces P8 12V! The audio PC booted successfully anyway.". You were essentially not utilizing the Keces. In that case it would probably be better to feed both EPS rails from the Taiko ATX (i.e. more wires, lower resistance... see the end of this post). Or you may just feed the EPS with the Keces and not use the Taiko ATX.

That unfortunately also means the Keces has much higher output impedance, which does not make it a good candidate to feed the Taiko ATX. This is a case where a good unregulated LPS feeding the Taiko ATX would sound better. 

 

What happens when you connect two Keces P8 power supplies to the EPS, i.e. one to the 4-pin EPS and another to the 8-pin EPS?

Two Keces P8 power supplies would likely have similar impedance and will balance the load better. You are nearly doubling the current capabilities. Our CPUs like the extra current headroom and usually sound better. Not only that, but you are also reducing the output impedance in (nearly) half - when you have two resistors connected in parallel the equivalent resistance drops by half. The downside, or at least one of them, is that you have more potential for ground-related problems since you also parallel the two grounds. 

 

From the above, the picture should be clear that the lower the power supply output impedance, the better voltage source it is. Running more wires to the EPS, would decrease the wire resistance, and that certainly helps. 

I believe the 15.5AWG Mundorf silver/gold wire has about 3 mOhms resistance per foot. Need to double check, but let's assume for a moment that is correct. A 4-pin / 1-foot EPS cable would have about 1.5 mOhms resistance. An 8-pin / 1-foot EPS cable would have about 0.75 mOhms resistance. An 8-pin + 4-pin / 1 foot EPS cables would have about 0.50 mOhms resistance. This is why shorter, thicker, more wires help here. 

 

@sakso136 - to answer your question - yes, using an 8-pin instead of 4-pin EPS connector would most likely result in a little uptick in sound quality. The downside is It also doubles the price of the wire :). 

Thks for the clarification nenon.

My question rests unanswered though.... Hiw about powering the 4 pin left unconnected from the hd800?

 

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6 minutes ago, sakso136 said:

Thks for the clarification nenon.

My question rests unanswered though.... Hiw about powering the 4 pin left unconnected from the hd800?

 

I have a doubt also now,my mb have 12 or 8 pin connector? : )

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4 minutes ago, Nenon said:

Then you will run in the same situation as @StreamFidelity where the 12V Keces P8 and the 12V output from the HDPlex (Taiko ATX in StreamFidelity's case) would be connected in parallel to the 12V rail and would be fighting to supply current to the 12V rail. The results would be unpredictable. It's not impossible that the unpredictable result might sound better, but the chance is small, and it's not something I would do in my system.

You know my recommendation - sell the two Keces and HDPlex, build an unregulated LPS and get a Taiko ATX :).

 

Your motherboard has one 8-pin EPS connector. 

Thks buddy.

I have that in mind...

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Hello,

 

Anyone with a MoBo with dual tau boost ?, I have a ROG MAXIMUS XIII HERO z590 and has it "turn it off" by default in CPU config in BIOS and i wonder if this could be helping the performance in audio next to having turbo enabled 

 

Appreciate your inputs,

Thanks !

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@Nenon, what are your thoughts about using two Taiko ATX for one motherboard setup? Asking because I’m wondering if I could power a video card and need more connections to do so.  It looks like some cases have room for two PSUs.

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On 6/10/2021 at 5:46 PM, Exocer said:

..

 

@bit01 - you may want to consider this wire for flavoring your setup. I also swapped out the Paul Hynes silver wire at the SR7T outputs for Mundorf SG 15.5awg wire and this was a step in the right direction. It is much better than the PH silver wire used internally.

..

 

 

I have a Ghent custom built cable using 16 AWG Gotham wire and the JSSG360 shield between the SR7T and TAIKO DC DC ATX currently. It works really well here.. (Note - It runs a full length of wire for each Molex pin- so heavy gage)

 

I will get some of that Deulund wire to try out for the EPS as it seems to be on sale - wish it was 18 AWG (more useful all around) Thanks for the tip.

 

ATB.

b.

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Jupiter is a great wire, neutral sounding. I mostly use Jupiter as go-to wire and Neotech Up OCC for the upgrades.

 

Currently my EPS 8 pin is Neotech (PVC) UP-OCC 18AWG and the ATX is a mix of Neotech (PVC) UP-OCC 18AWG and some thinner leftover neotech up-occ

ISP, cat8.1, Zylix switch on LPS, Finisar <1321>Solarflare 8522, AMD 9, Aorus X570 Master, Corsair AX1200i, 16Gb Apacer Ram, Pink Faun I2S OCXO on LPS, home grown RJ45 I2S cable, Metrum Amethyst (modded to accept I2S), Klangfilm 204a, Klangfilm Trionor (3Tesla 835, JBL2402)

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