Building a DIY Music Server

[jean-michel6]

On 2/20/2020 at 9:54 PM, dctom said:

 

 

SGM extreme people make a big thing of not using SATA channel for storage of music files, they use Pcie M2. Apparantly sata channel is very noisy. 

On my set up , I have disable all sata . It really made a nice sound quality improvement . For me sata and sata ssd is a no go .

uploading files into ram either from hdd/usb or sata ssd was always better from the hdd/usb . I did no try ssd/usb .

[jean-michel6]

Hi , 

 

I am now putting together a server with the supermicro X10sdv-f motherboard. It has a Xeon with 8 cores .

My mobo is drawing 3 to 4 A @12V .

There is no accessory powered by the mobo except an optane m2card. 

 

I am now powering it with a 12v Sean Jacobs psu .

However since I have been told that I will get better sound quality if I use the atx connector , I want to buy an hdplex dc to atx converter .

Eventhough I do not need high power , Is there any interest to use the 800 over the 400 or 200 ? ( powered by a 19v Sean Jacobs psu )

[jean-michel6]

Thank for your reply . From your perspective sq is the same for 800 or 400 .

 I will be powering the cpu through the atx plug  as there is no 12v  cpu specific plug on my mobo .

Does efficiency of dc-dc conversion is different between 800 and 400 ?

[jean-michel6]

10 hours ago, Dev said:

 

In that case, make sure you have a good beefed up power supply for the 19v rail and much greater than 5A. With 19v @5A rail, I couldn't boot. If you are not upsampling, you "might" be bottle-necked at boot as it requires a ton of power to initialize. Once this is past, the normal operation should be a breeze. I have DIY'ed LPS using SJ regs and have gained and measured a ton of data recently. 200w Hdplex is probably not a good idea for 8-core but depending on which CPU you are using I would at least go 400w. The 800w is preferrable for powering high-power CPU.

 

 

sorry, I can comment the dc-dc conversion efficiency between the two since I haven't used them to power the CPU. For low wattage application, I don't hear any audible differences between the two as I was saying earlier. Maybe you can check with Larry on this. 

The CPU I am using is a Xeon d 1541 . Right now I have no problem booting from the Sean Jacobs 12v @5A using of course the 12v plug on the mobo.This dépends also of the amount of ram you are using I am using 8 giga rdimm apacer industrial.

You can also do some set up in the bios to have a slower boot that will take a little bit longer .

If it is ok with 12v@5A , I think it will probably be right at 19v@5A with the dc Atx converter 

But I agree that a more powerful psu should be better , however there is no Sean Jacobs psu above 5A . I have found the Sean Jacobs to be extremely good in term of sq and I want to stay with them.

 

For dc-dc efficiency it’s is in the range of 94 to 96 % for both the 400 and 800

[jean-michel6]

13 hours ago, Nenon said:

Check with him. He has one but does not advertise it. This thread might be of interest to you if you have missed it:

Thank’s , I will definitely ask him as I am currently involved with him buying dc3 and DC4 reg modules 

 

I have one question which puzzled me . On the beginning of this thread you are detailing the construction of a server that you built using three dc3 reg to supply the dc atx for this board . 
I am surprised to see that there is no boost modules for these dc3reg . 
The dc3reg by itself is capable of only 1.5A power which is quite low you need the boost module to go to 5A .

Thank for your feedback . 
 

Also about using separate reg modules to power the atx compared to using a dc to dc hdplex converter . 
I have read that for some mobo the timing to power up the different voltage could be critical and the mobo will not start if that was not correct.

Did you ever experienced difficulty using discrete reg to power the atx connector of the mobo ? 

[jean-michel6]

@Nenon & @ASRMichael  Thank's for your answers , this help clarify what is available from SJ . I will contact him .

[jean-michel6]

Buffalo bs gs 2016 . There are many report of the sq impact of using pf ultra ocxo clock on this switch .

Did anyone tried the same modification with their less expensive ocxo clock ?

[jean-michel6]

16 hours ago, Nenon said:

Just so everyone is aware - I am now officially affiliated with Sean Jacobs.

 

Per the forum rules:

1. My signature clearly displays that.

2. I will not promote his products but can answer any questions you have.

 

That is actually good news for the DIY community here, because:

a) I am not doing any of that to pay my bills. Any work I do with Sean is planned to be invested back in my hobby!

b) I will have access to as many of his DC4 rails as I need for my personal experiments. And that is very exciting news.

So what can I do with some extra cash for my DIY experiments and a number of DC4 rails available? Hmmm, I can think of A LOT OF THINGS! And I hope I have the time to do all of them. 

 

You can expect me to continue to share any successful DIY experiments as I always have. I understand if you take my words with a grain of salt from now on. And you should! But my only goal and agenda remains to advance the level of my system.

Congratulations for this partnership.

And thank’s for all the good things you share with the community.

[jean-michel6]

20 hours ago, lmitche said:

Thanks Dminches,

 

My experience is that in a computer running Euphony/Stylus more CPU power means better SQ. I believe there are many here that have had a similar experience with Euphony such as yourself.

 

The original comment was "since a more powerful CPU should sound (much) better under most circumstances". This is a complete generalization that makes no mention of Euphony. My objection is with the generalization.

 

The server mentioned in the post doesn't run Euphony. The post states it comes "with custom BIOS / stripped down version of Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC" running on a Pentium J4205. While the Pentium is far from the fastest Intel processor, to imply that SQ must be below Euphony running on the fastest Intel processor is conjecture at best. We wouldn't know unless we have a listen. That is straight logic, not an opinion.

 

I believe people should listen to a solution before sharing an opinion based on some "theory" or extrapolation of others experience. There is no substitute for "hands-on" empirical evidence. An opinion on sound quality based on anything else is a disservice to the community.

Hi , myself I have  been using dual pc configuration using supermicro x10sba running on Daphile . I just copycat the board innuos was using .

The overall sq was quite good .

The I moved to an other dual configuration using the supermicro x11saa (used in statement innuos ) with an ereddock engineered card as the player .

Again a very nice boost in sound quality , again using daphile as software .

 

After reading all the very good feedback on using powerful pc board , I felt the itch to try this way .

I did move to a supermicro x10sdv-f board  a quite powerful 8cores Xeon server board with apacer ram and still used the ereddock from engineered as a player and again still using daphile as software.

The sq gain was very significant especially in dynamic , image and bass . 
No way to go back to low power configuration , even though it was good and very nice to hear ,  the high power pc server bring you much closer to life like music reproduction .

[jean-michel6]

1 hour ago, Nenon said:

3 hours ago, lmitche said:

Power supplies handle constant current demand much better than changing demand, and if a system is tuned in this way the need for exotic power supplies is less important.

This is where I disagree and pretty much everyone here who has tried a really good quality power supply would disagree. Otherwise, you would see a whole bunch of custom Paul Hynes SR7's and Sean Jacobs DC4 power supplies for sale on the used market. 

I have a semi powerful server board supermicro x10 sdv-f with an 8core Xeon .

It is powered by a Sean Jacob psu .

Between the power box and server I was using a heavy gauge Neotech (awg 14) 50cm cable .

I did switch to mundorf 1.5 mm cable .

 

It did made a huge increase in sound quality .

In my opinion this illustrates how sensitive is power supply for our system and how only a 50cm long piece of wire can make or break the system .

[jean-michel6]

13 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

Just out of curiosity, did you use that size for all wires and are those single leads? (meaning; do you have more leads running parallel for the same voltage)?

 

I just used single wire . 
The tdp for this cpu is 45w .... therefore I do not think it will ever draw 12A of current . Typically I measured 1 to 3 A .

[jean-michel6]

On 12/13/2020 at 4:40 PM, ASRMichael said:

The best sata cable is no data cable! I recently turned on sata controller to listen to internal storage. Wasn’t on for long. Even with good LPS, it’s just too noisy. 

Fully agree .... sata turned off is really the way to go . Sata is so noisy .... also turned of usb 3 if possible ! 

[jean-michel6]

On 12/13/2020 at 4:45 PM, MarcelNL said:

You'll need to store the data somewhere, I don't envision going the server client route if I can help it...I hear what you are saying, I listened to a couple of SATA cables and PSUs and was amazed how much that affects SQ

 

Storing all content in RAM is a bit hard, streaming means investing in more hardware as I also listened to the effects of network cables routers etc...choices...

A 2,5” hdd on usb is better than ssd on sata  . 

[jean-michel6]

19 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

thought the Optane supposedly sounds better due to lower noise than SSD running the OS, I already have 64GB RAM installed and Daphile fits easily in a tiny portion of it as it is.

I am also using an optane 32 go card with the Daphie os on it , a nice sq bump compared to running from a usb stick .

Have you ever tried to put music files on the optane drive and running from there ? 

[jean-michel6]

22 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

am comparing the two, and with somewhat surprising, well baffling rather,  results. 

All fairly quick comparisons (30 sec or so, with not more than 5-10 sec between them), done using the same track by the late Johnny Cash, 'unearthed' track 14 (alternate take) of 'down there by the train'

Thank’s for these very interesting results .

 

If I understand well you did get the best sound quality with music files streamed from the optane drive , correct ? 
If yes it means it is even better than music buffered and then streamed from ram ! 

Ideally then instead of buffering to ram it will be nice if we could buffer to the optane drive . 
 

Can I ask how did you managed to transfer music files to the optane drive ?

[jean-michel6]

51 minutes ago, MarcelNL said:

Once the drive is mounted/installed using the Daphile file manager it's a matter of copy pasting folders or files to the free partition of the Optane drive, and sitting back amazed seeing how fast the file moves (actually faster than noticeable). The Optane drive has three partitions, one is free (12 or so Gb out of the 14.x that is available on a 16Gb).

Thank’s for this info . 
I will try it tomorrow and report results . 

[jean-michel6]

I did managed to copy some music files on the optane drive as you said it is very easy . 
i will do the listening tomorrow.

If it is clearly a sound quality improvement we may be could ask the developer Kimmo to put that as an option .

Either buffer to ram or music internal drive ! 
Great 

[jean-michel6]

I am in bed :-) .... but my system is running because I am burning in some mundorf cabling ( by the way this is also a true sq lift ! ) .

 

If several of us are asking Kimmo , he may do it ! 

[jean-michel6]

1 minute ago, MarcelNL said:

I need to get me some Mundorf wire, I am a big Neotech fan but I hate the insulation used on it....Jupiter wire is also nice.

I was also in neotech copper ( heavy gauge ) , the mundorf is really a big sq lift over the neotech.

[jean-michel6]

4 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

I wonder if that SSD noise through the SATA cable is EMI due to the high speed data or is it electrical noise creeping into the MB (or both), do you know Nenon?

 

My best SQ is when I simply unplug the external PSU for the SSD, I could live with an 'OCD switch' for serious listening of a few tracks/albums from Optane...that is how big the difference is for me. No way I am coughing up the dough for 2TB or so local storage in Obscene, eeerr Optane.

 

 

A while ago I did some test using Daphile . I had an internal music ssd on sata and the same music library on an external hdd usb connected .

I was buffering in ram the same piece of music coming from the ssd and from the hdd .

The sound quality was different and always worse from the ssd !

[jean-michel6]

On 5/31/2021 at 11:24 AM, ASRMichael said:

Then I got a notification that the Taiko ATX was available to purchase! I hummed & hawed. Well not for long! Thinking “what happens if there’s was only one batch made & I miss out” I went and purchased the Taiko card!

Hi Michael , 

 

I did like you 😂. Very interested by your results . I have not yet installed my Taiko ATX . I will initially power it with a SJ DC3 19 V@5A . 
I am waiting on some feedback and may be I will use one of unregulated ps from Nenon . 
My server is a supermicro X10sdv-f ( Xeon 8 cores ar 2.1 MHz ) . This board is only fed through the atx there is no eps connector . I run only Daphile so no need for more horsepower . 
I have measured 4A at start up and about 3A during normal operations . 
 

Since you have an etherregen, I very very strongly recommend an external 10 MHz master clock . I did that recently and I call the result a small miracle . It does improve everything in sound quality and makes the sound so much more natural . It really worth every penny . 
I went for an afterdark Giesemann  the cost is 1700€ , I did try before an afterdark double crown loaned by a friend and it was also really excellent cost is more reasonable about 900€ 

 

Jean-Michel 

[jean-michel6]

48 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Hopefully cables arrive this week and I’ll give early impressions.
 

I’ve decided not to spend anymore on network. I’m only using local files at present. No streaming services.

 

I had Edge X & OM before my EtherRegen. All powered by DC3 rails. I after 12 months in place I removed the Edge X and OM because it sounded better without them. This might be because my DC3 was powering 2 less devices, who knows! Also Euphony now has a feature to disconnect network. 
 

IMHO £1700 for a clock is a lot of money, could this amount of money be spent better elsewhere? 

In my case the music data goes this way 

local hdd (usb ) > x10sdv-f server > etherregen > ered dock player . 
I also play only local file and do not stream . The master clock is a huge progress because it delivers a very very noise free music data to the ereddock player .

In your case you go from 

Nas > etherregen > I9 server & player . 
The master clock may be not an as significant experiment as what I did . Anyhow if you have the opprtunity I recommend you to test it. 

[jean-michel6]

In my home electrical panel I am using gold plated fuse holder with audiophile beeswax shd fuse . 
 

I did exchanged with an audiophile who had gigawatt circuit breaker and was selling it because he did not like the sound . He went to the same solution as mine and did like the result . 
 

 

[jean-michel6]

6 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

thanks for this info, I tried to read up on the SSD disc, but I'm not sure if ANtipodes is seriously using SSD using SATA?

My experience is that SATA SSD, on an external linear PSU sounds worse than NVME in an M.2 slot without linear supply.

Fully agree with you . Sata is noisy and ssd with sata is worse than hdd with sata .

Deactivate sata and use m2 nvme is the best for sq .

[jean-michel6]

I am in the process of building my ULPS V3 for my server   and I need a little advise for the output connection set up .

 

 My server is not very high tdp ( Xeon only 45 W , super micro x10sdv-f ) ,this server is powered only with the ATX since there is no EPS connector on it .From what I have observed the power consumption is about 50 watts during start up and then 12 to 36 watts

It is obviously important to achieve the lowest output resistivity (impedance ) to properly feed the taiko dc-dc card , less than 20 milliohm according to Nenon .

 

In my set up I will need to have about 70 cm of wire between the ULPS and to use two connector ( one on ulps and one on the server)

 

For connectors the option are the aviation type , the XLR and the Jaeger  . The Jaeger contact resistivity goes from 1,5 to 0,7 milliohm depending on contact size  and the XLR have less than 3 milliohm contact resistivity .  I have not found the data for the aviation type , I have low confidence about these connectors as they are fairly cheap and made in china .

 

I intend to use the Mundorf Angelique wire for this either 1mm diameter or 1.5 mm diameter .

 

I have a question about the calculation of the resistivity of my connection set up .

 

Let's imagine I use the following configuration :

 

2  wire ( 1.5mm) for each polarity ( plus or minus ) using and XLR 4 connector .

The resistivity for one line will be 6.8 milliohm for the wire + 6 milliohm(3+3) for the connector resistivity = 12,8milliohm .

 

Since I have two wire for each polarity the resulting resistivity should be  ( 12.8*12.8)/(12.8+12.8)= 6.4 milliohm . Is this correct ?

 

Thank for your feedback and  to validate or not what I have written. ...