Building a DIY Music Server

[NEMO777]

15 hours ago, Nenon said:

 

По Эмилю: "ll2773 с 66 000 мкФ убьет atx постоянного тока при включении питания".

Can you explain why LL 2773 will kill ATX? After all, Taiko himself, judging by the photographs of his unregulated power source, does not use any current-limiting components of the ATX relay. Apparently, Taiko himself uses LL2773 made according to his specification. I compared the original LL2773 and a photograph of the Taiko TA 350 throttle printed in the original size. I did not find any differences in the dimensions and cross-section of the wire and the number of turns.

[NEMO777]

Want to ask the respected DIY community. I want to build a copy as close as possible to Taiko Audio SGM Extreme. Having studied all the available sources and reviews, I understand what components it consists of. Everything is in free sale and has already been ordered by me. It is not possible to buy a similar unregulated power supply to Taiko. I want to assemble it using details as close as possible to the original. I tried to simulate the circuit. Before you start assembling it and purchasing expensive components, I ask you to tell me, maybe I did not take into account something or mistakenly indicated it in the diagram. Any comment is appreciated.

[NEMO777]

4 hours ago, Nenon said:

Не совсем то, что я сказал. Вы пропустили часть в 66 000 мкФ. Вам нужно больше емкости. Но если вы добавите больше емкости, вы увеличите нагрузку на выпрямитель... и так далее... Множество вещей, требующих тщательного рассмотрения.

 

Я изучал Экстрим последние 2 года. Здесь больше, чем кажется на первый взгляд.

Вы не можете получить пользовательскую память, которую использует Taiko. Тайко сравнил его с нашей любимой промышленной оперативной памятью Apacer (и ей не понравился Apacer). Вы не можете получить USB-карту Taiko, или USB-драйвер, или TAS, или настроенную Windows. Было бы даже трудно скопировать настройки BIOS.

Но когда дело доходит до Экстремального источника питания, в нем определенно есть нечто большее, чем кажется на первый взгляд. Жаль, что я не могу сказать вам точно, что используют Экстремалы. Но на самом деле я не знаю. Я не думаю, что Экстрим использует постоянный ток Taiko ATX от постоянного тока до постоянного тока, который мы покупаем для DIY. Насколько я понимаю, там есть что-то еще, что на самом деле работает лучше в крайнем случае.

Когда я посетил Тайко, я указал на этот конденсатор в панцерхольцском лесу:

Я спросил Эмиля: "Это действительно имеет значение?". Эмиль заверил меня, что это так. Он добавил, что если бы это не было в панцерхольце, он бы никогда не использовал этот конкретный конденсатор. Я видел больше панцерхольцев внутри Крайностей, которые они строили, чем я видел в завершенных подразделениях. Он скрыт под ним, и его трудно увидеть в готовом устройстве.

 

Похоже, что бы вы ни попытались сделать, это будет совсем не то, что находится внутри Экстрима. Вы не получите точный пользовательский трансформатор, предполагая, что вы не получите их точный выпрямитель, вы не можете получить пользовательский дроссель Лундаля, вы не можете получить регулируемую часть конструкции источника питания, предполагая, что вы не можете использовать конденсатор panzerholz и т. Д. Поскольку это будет совсем другое, это может быть клон хита или промаха. И если у вас нет ссылки для сравнения, вы понятия не будете иметь, что вы сделали.

 

Возможно, лучшим началом будет создание нерегулируемых пластинок, которыми я поделился здесь, и использование их в качестве эталона. Когда вы копируете другие части экстремального дизайна, сравните их с эталонными. И, пожалуйста, поделитесь тем, что сработало, а что не сработало. Удачи и, пожалуйста, присылайте несколько фотографий и отзывов.

Thanks for your sane comment Neon. I am a realist and I perfectly understand that I cannot completely repeat all the technologies of Taiko Extreme. I have been analyzing all available sources of information on this server for a long time. So far, my plans include repeating as much as possible the already finished server assembly. Of all the periphery, I cannot install only the ATP RAM, I cannot purchase it. But in the process of setting up, I will try RAM from different manufacturers, I have such an opportunity. Now I am working hard on the selection of capacitors for the power supply. Taiko showed what their power supplies look like, the photos are on their website in the gallery - https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/taiko-gallery/. The only question is in the ratings of the capacitors. With capacitors according to my scheme C1, C3-C9, C11-C16, there are no questions, this is 47000uF 25V Mundorf MLytic AG Electrolytic Capacitor - https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/mlgoag180-47000uf-25vdc-mlytic-electrolytic-caps -p-8251.html.
The capacitor C2 is questionable. The mundorf in this design has a kindergarten with a red inscription only - Mundorf MCap Supreme EVO Oil Capacitors. Since it shunts the capacitor by 47000 uF, then in terms of syenergy in a ratio of 1: 10000 there should be a 4.7uF capacitor. I think Taiko used a capacitor - 4.7uF 800Vdc Mundorf Mcap Supreme EVO Oil Capacitor - https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/seo-070-4-7uf-mundorf-mcap-supreme-evo-oil.html ... The big question is I have shunt capacitors C10 and C17. I could not see their denominations. But apparently this is 0.47uF 630Vdc Duelund CAST DC Silver Capacitor - https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/castdcag014-047uf-630v-duelund-cast-silver-stock-p-9473.html.
Can someone from our community be able to confirm the information on capacitors?

[NEMO777]

4 hours ago, Nenon said:

Not exactly what I said. You missed the 66,000 uF part. You need more capacitance. But if you add more capacitance you put more load on the rectifier... and so on... Plenty of things that need careful considerations. 

 

I've been studying the Extreme for the last 2 years. There is more than it meets the eye.

You cannot get the custom memory that Taiko uses. Taiko has compared it to our favorite industrial Apacer RAM (and did not like the Apacer). You cannot get the Taiko USB card, or the USB driver, or TAS, or the customized Windows. It would be even hard to copy the BIOS settings. 

But when it comes to the Extreme power supply, there is definitely more to it than meets the eye. I wish I could tell you exactly what the Extreme uses. But I don't really know. I don't think the Extreme uses the Taiko ATX DC to DC that we buy for DIY. My understanding is there is something else there that actually works better in the Extreme. 

When I visited Taiko, I pointed out this capacitor in panzerholz wood:

I asked Emile: "Does this really make a difference?". Emile ensured me that it does. He added that if it was not in panzerholz, he would never use this particular capacitor. I saw more panzerholz inside the Extremes they were building than I have seen in the completed units. It's hidden underneath and it's hard to see it in a completed unit. 

 

Seems like whatever you attempt to do will be quite different than what's inside the Extreme. You won't get the exact custom transformer, guessing you won't get their exact rectifier, you can't get the custom Lundahl choke, you can't get the regulated part of the power supply design, guessing you can't do the panzerholz capacitor, etc. Since it will be quite different, it may be a hit or miss clone. And if you don't have a reference to compare to, you will have no idea what you have done. 

 

Perhaps a better start will be to build the unregulated LPS I have shared here and use that as a reference. As you copy other parts of the Extreme design, compare to the reference. And please share back what worked and what did not work. Good luck and please send some photos and feedback. 

I also plan to use bakel plywood for damping capacitors, transformer and chokes like Taiko did. It is not difficult to buy such plywood in my region. Now I'm thinking about what kind of plywood to use, it can be birch or beech. Judging by the photo from neon, there is plywood from Beech. Although Emil himself said that he uses birch plywood.

[NEMO777]

12 minutes ago, RickyV said:

sorry can’t help you with the capacitors but I was wondering about the double choke coil in your schematic. Why did you learn that from?

I want to repeat Taiko's original circuit. Taiko himself uses 2 throttles in his power supply. You can see it on their website in the gallery. - https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/taiko-gallery/

[NEMO777]

9 minutes ago, RickyV said:

I was going to say “ but I do not see any wires going underneath the capacitor bank” 

But 

 

But with a transformer symbol on the pcb, confusing.

 

I am sure that these are taps to the second coil of the inductor. The photo shows that the ATX output has only one MI Fit for 6 contacts.

[NEMO777]

1 hour ago, RickyV said:

So I looked a little closer and I now think I see 4 connecting wires.

 

 

red for coil 1. Yellow for coil 2, see only one wire.

 

 

So @NEMO777, not sure if this is helpful or makes things more confusing.

 

In my opinion it is pretty necessary to know the values of al these coil if you want to duplicate this power supply.

yes, I now also saw that the wires go to two coils of the drosel, apparently it is switched on in three-phase mode. now the question arises in which part of the scheme it is included. yes, taiko is increasingly puzzling me.

[NEMO777]

Thanks to the DIY community for contributing to the discussion on the original Taiko Audio SGM Extreme unregulated power supply circuit. I am especially grateful for the personal messages from the participants who helped me with information on the real denominations of the components and the scheme for their inclusion. In my opinion, the circuit has original solutions for the parts used and the circuit for their inclusion. I will definitely try to collect it completely, as well as various options for including individual elements in order to influence the final sound. Now I am waiting for all the components of the server to come to me in order to assemble it and start experimenting with the power supply. As distinguished members of the community noted that it is better to look for your own path to implementation, I think that at this stage my path is to start from the already implemented model, and on its basis find the best solution for myself.

[NEMO777]

Having carefully studied the available sources for Taiko Audio SGM Extreme, I noticed that the rectifier circuit no doubt uses dual Schottky diodes. There are 2 of them with a common anode and a common cathode for voltage rectification. But in one of the photos, I saw that Taiko uses 4 elements. Does the community have an explanation of how Taiko uses them?

[NEMO777]

1 hour ago, Nenon said:

 

@NEMO777 if my comments that you are doing it all wrong were not enough, Emile from Taiko, who is checking this thread occasionally, saw your posts and reached out to me this morning. Here is what he said:

“That is not the Extreme power supply schematic. If you are undertaking the effort and invest considerable funds to build a ULPS for the DIY Taiko DC-DC ATX, you will have far better results using a 24V AC transformer secondary with 32-33V DC out. If you want to use larger value chokes, or chokes with a lower DCR, do simulate and adjust capacitance value to match.”

 

I tried telling you the same thing in my post, which I highly recommend you re-read:

To repeat again - I believe you are wrongfully assuming that the Extreme is using the DIY Taiko ATX and doing things that will not sound so good with the DIY Taiko ATX. 

 

We used the opportunity to discuss different chokes in this unregulated LPS design. For those who want to play with the Hammond 195J10 or the even bigger Hammond 195K12 choke, here is what you need to do:

• 22000uF - Hammond 195J10 - 22000uF - Hammond 195J10 - 220000uF; or
• 22000uF - Hammond 195K12 - 22000uF - Hammond 195K12 - 330000uF

These designs will sound tighter and a bit more mechanical than the v2 and v3 I have shared. These larger values chokes will have a sound signature more typically associated with “digital sound” when used with the DIY DC-DC ATX. The difference in sound between these two versions is very minimal. But the Hammond 195K12 is very big and won't fit in the upcoming DIY chassis. You will need an external chassis for that. 

 

My recommendation still remains the V2 or the V3, but if you want to play with different chokes, at least make sure you have the right capacitance for the choke you are using. 

Thank you Nenon for your comment. English is not my first language. It is difficult for me to convey all the nuances of my thought and idea through machine translation. I'm not going to blindly copy the Taiko circuit, it is important for me to take the initial concept and, on its basis, conduct a series of experiments, find that unique combination of physical power parameters such as voltage, capacity and number of capacitors, shunt elements, and more. The power supply is just one piece of the puzzle of a good audio server. An extremely important element is software customization. I really hope that you, as you promised us, will share the intricacies of setting up a two-processor server in due time.
I want to ask you, can you have any thoughts on how the dual Schottky diodes are included in the Taiko circuit?

[NEMO777]

6 hours ago, Mags said:

What softstart are folks using? DIY or off-the-shelf? I'm looking for a small unit for a tube amp I'm building that works with a remote low voltage pushbutton/switch so I can put the switch on the amp front while still keeping all the AC in the back.

 

I've used a NewclassD before but I need something smaller due to limited room.

HYPEX Softstart module for amplifiers - https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/softstart-protection/hypex-softstart-module-for-amplifiers-p-1616.html

The same module is used by Taiko in his Extreme.