Building a DIY Music Server

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Guide on how to use a high power/high TDP CPU (AMD 3900x, 5900x, 10900K, etc) in a Hdplex H5 or Streacom fanless case, without loss of CPU performance

 

I have 105w TDP 3900x in Asus ROG Strix B-550E and I can comfortably use it in a H5 case at less than 55 degrees, full speed, even if HDplex recommends a max of 95W TDP (and most people limit themselves to 65W TDP CPUs). No, you don’t have to limit yourself to lower TDP CPUs! And no, your fanless case doesn’t have to be an inferno...

Why does it matter?

 

High power CPUs sound fuller, weightier, more relaxed, more analogue, more inner detail than lower power (i personally tried 3700x vs 3900x). This is a very clear, very strong difference. I would only advice highest power CPU for audio PC after personal testing of different CPUs of different power levels. Lower power = thinner sound. Simple.

 

High CPU heat is also correlated with harshness 

 

 Process 

0) use Kryonaut thermal paste

 

1) use custom acrylic lid with holes, as suggested by Streamfidelity. This is critical to let the heat of the chipset, copper pipes, PCIe and CPU out of the case. The heat pipe system is just not enough

 

2) in the bios: lock the CPU core ratio to stock speed (eg 38 for 3900x). this will prevent the bios to dynamically change the speed of the CPU

 

3) undervolt the CPU by using manual override. The 3900x runs by default at 1.3V or more. You can safely go to 1.2v or even lower. Use increments of 0.25V and test for stability. By going from 1.3V to less than 1.2v, fully stable, my Keces P8 went from 4.5a continuous consumption to 2.5A, a -45% reduction!

 

On top of that, this technique gives more headroom to the LPS, boosting further sound quality
 

there’s no loss (or very minimal, a few percent at most) of CPU performance. Huge difference compared to underclocking where some had to decrease CPU speed of 50% or more to achieve heat targets. And huge difference compared to lower TDP CPUs.
 

In fact, you can lock the core ratio higher (ie overclock) if your temps are low and can go higher, and increase CPU voltage as necessary (which increases heat). I dont view this as necessary for audio considering the minimal performance gains from overclocking
 

Full CPU performance is critical for sound quality: more cores, more cache, more CPU power leads to a fuller, weightier, more natural, more detailed sound. It’s very obvious and correlates findings of many others like Romaz etc

 

this technique allows to have NO compromise sound quality in a fanless case.... you can even go 16 cores with 3950x/5950x: no problem (I will test myself soon but outcome is already known since 3900x/3950x/5900x/5950x are all 105W TDP with similar real life thermals, as tested all over the internet and YouTube)

 

next topic: importance of power phases, chipset choice etc.

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4 hours ago, mikicasellas said:

 

This is what Euphony is showing now !!

 

Im using a Asus Hyper M.2 PCIE card where my Optane resides but has no info on it yet, this might be elevating the heat

 

 

 

There must be something wrong on how you installed CPU, thermal paste, copper pipes. I would disassemble and redo it carefully (check out YouTube videos) and use Kryonaut thermal paste. 

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Impact of CPU on audio quality (going from 3700x to 3900x to 3950x in a fanless case)

 

I wanted to report my findings going from 3700x to 3950x in a H5 case.

 

Since I have HDplex H5 case I started with 3700x since it’s 65W TDP CPU (Asus rog strix b550-E MB and I can explain why vs. Gygabite Aorus master). It sounded good but for me was lacking some body and weight. I then upgraded to 3900x. No other change. Immediately the sound became much weightier, bigger, fuller, more inner detail, more calm and analogue, more realistic tone, more dense, much more depth, better soundstage.. etc. There were only upsides. If I had to put %, I would say sound quality increase of 50%. 

The reason I did this is because of reports here on the impact on CPU on SQ (eg Romaz) and because a friend who upgraded from i7 to 3900x reported a shocking increase in SQ in his system. I was able to make this 105W TDP work in H5 with undervolting done the right way (you can also use manual PBO, I might explain if people are interested)

 

Since I was able to make 3900x (12 cores) work in H5, I then decided to go for 3950x (16 cores but the same 105w TDP) and use same BIOS techniques, assuming more cores, more processing power = better/bigger sound.

 

Well guess what, the sound quality increased again. Same exact type of change in sound going to 3900x to 3950x. Bigger, denser, more musical content inside the sound, fuller, better tone, better depth, better decay... Very clear and obvious. Sounds a bit like you have a big amplifier upgrade, the sound is so much more powerful and real. In %, I would say plus 25% this time.

 

So my recommendation to anyone doing a DYI PC is start with the biggest CPU. I like AMD because they use 7nm technology and therefore generate less heat (even though they might have slightly higher latency than Intel).
 

I don’t know a way to create this sound without a bigger CPU, and at the back end, no USB card or LPS can re-create what’s not there in the first place...
 

Reported temp on the MB LCD is about 45-48. I do use a Keces P8 12v single rail on the CPU so YMMV. The 3950x is only drawing 2.1 amps on the P8 while playing music (no upsampling) which is less than 3700x and 3900x (boost etc all activated).

 

For context I have:

Asus MB B-550E MB (fanless chipset) 

AMD 3950x (16 cores and 70mb of cache)

Apacer 2666Mhz ECC RAM 8gb (latest model)

Euphony O/S

Jcat XE USB and Femto USB, El Fidelity USB, Pink Faun SPDIF bridge 

Jcat Net Femto

Uptone JS2 LPS

2 custom LPS with supercaps etc

KECES P8 dedicated to the CPU with FIS audio CPU cable

Uptone USB isoregen

Jcat Ethernet isolator

Etc

McIntosh and Harbeth 

I will post photos later on.

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9 minutes ago, bit01 said:

Apacer has 3200MHz DDR4 industrial wide temp modules out now. I have just received a 16GB one! In due time I will compare it to the G. Skill Ripjaws V (3200MHz). The Ripjaws produced a 'bigger' sonic  in my setup than the Apacer standard temperature 2666MHz modules, but not as 'sweetly polished'.

Wow interesting!! Looking forward to your review! Where did you buy?

 

By the way we can talk about RAM: I alternate between

- Apacer 2666Mhz C19 ECC wide temp

- Corsair 3200 C15 and

- Patriot 4000 C16

 

It’s really a matter of taste. Also 1 stick is different (probably better for most) than 2 sticks (even if 2 or even 4 sticks are dual/quad channels and higher bandwidth).

I can also share my experience with latency, CAS/RAM timing, ram speed, ram voltage...etc but nothing really new vs. what others have reported before me.

Overall: Jury is out for now... I wouldn’t say Apacer is unambiguously better for everyone. 

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54 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Thank you for the post. Can I ask what clock speed have you set? 
 

I’m now using Intel i9 10900k. I had to restrict to 8 cores, no matter if frequency was set at 3.5ghz or 5.3ghz it would not work on 10 cores. Doesn’t get past boot. 
 

Currently CPU is fully open on turbo 5.3ghz. Boots fine with 8 cores. 
 

I’m using 10a LPS to power it. 
 

My temps are 45-48c like yours. @ 5.3ghz. 
 

41c @ 3.7ghz

 

much higher than my i9 9900k. @ 5.0ghz idle was around 37c. 
 

What doesn’t help is the XII Extreme MB has a heatsink close to cpu, its bit higher than previous MB. As a result the H5 copper pipes just fit but are touching the MB heatsink. 
 

No listening tests as yet. Just powered it up, wait few days and will revert back. 

First of all, 10900K is 125W TDP, that’s 30% above what HDplex recommends for H5. You have low temps but the 10900k does need power. It can pull up to 225W if I recall correctly.

 

Right now with 3950x, my CPU is un-throttled for speed within the limits of the core voltage which is set manually at a pretty high 1.25V (I’ll explain what I mean by that).

 

All the rest including Precision Boost Overdrive, Asus performance enhancement, CPU clock speed are all on Auto. Which means the CPU is free to boost frequency as needed (well

above 4 GHz) as long as core voltage is no more than 1.25V. And based on Linus Tech Tips tests and others, the 3950x runs around a very low 1V voltage under most conditions / benchmarking tests. Also, keep in mind music is not a CPU intensive task (without upsampling). It’s not like you’re running Cinebench R20 or Prime95.
 

To cut a long story short, my 3950x is pretty much running full speed in a fanless case....

 

On the other hand, the very powerful 10900K is rated 125W TDP which means it draws a lot of power. Intel was very smart in optimizing with thinner die but it’s still 14nm.
 

If I were you, I would first:

1) run all cores - it’s critical for sound quality

2) pick a decent clock speed - start with the stock speed and manually lock it (manual override in the BIOS). If needed you can decrease later on 

3) disable turbo boost (for now) - that can potentially put strain on your LPS 

4) Decrease CPU core voltage. Start with stock voltage and decrease in 0.25v increments, and check for stability 

 

Another way to do it is manually set TDP (if you can on Intel) to 95W or less and let the BIOS adjust everything else. 

Now - you mention you can’t go past boot. So a few more tips:
 

It could be because your CPU is boosting on the 10 cores and exceeds 10A of power usage during boot. In that case, the locked lower voltage might help. The lower fixed TDP might help. Or if you manually lock the power going to the CPU (PPT for AMD), max peak amperage (EDC for AMD) or max amperage (TDC), that should help too. Under AMD terminology:

 

- Package Power Tracking (“PPT”): The PPT threshold is the allowed socket power consumption permitted across the voltage rails supplying the socket. Applications with high thread counts, and/or “heavy” threads, can encounter PPT limits that can be alleviated with a raised PPT limit.

- Thermal Design Current (“TDC”): The maximum current (amps) that can be delivered by a specific motherboard’s voltage regulator configuration in thermally-constrained scenarios.

 

- Electrical Design Current (“EDC”): The maximum current (amps) that can be delivered by a specific motherboard’s voltage regulator configuration in a peak (“spike”) condition for a short period of time.

i don’t know the intel equivalents of the above but that could fix the issue

 

And I agree hyper threading should be disabled (for sound quality) if you’re not upsampling  but I don’t think it’s the root cause

 

I couldn’t boot in euphony (maybe like you if you use it too) and I could see on the Keces P8 the CPU pulling much more than 8A (which is the max for P8), probably boosting the CPU during boot. When I manually locked the voltage to 1.25V, the issue went away.

 

while you’re at it, disable spread spectrum as well since it measurably creates jitter. 

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3 hours ago, Dev said:

 

46-48C

43C as we speak on the MB, and drawing 2.0 Amps on the 12V Keces P8, playing music with Euphony 

 

the PCIe card on the photo with red Wima caps is an El Fidelity PCIE power filter, a must have for an audio PC (but that’s for another post...)

 

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29 minutes ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

I tried this a year ago with HQPlayer on a 3900x - setting CPU to 1.0v and it destroyed the SQ in this case, but yes massive power and heat savings.

 

Interestingly I also swapped in my Ryzen 5800x in place of my 3900x.  5000 series has big AVX2 improvements which meant the 5800x could do the same tasks with less power/compute which meant HQPlayer was running with the lowest cpu usage i'd seen in years.  SQ wise?  To my surprise I could barely tell them apart, maybe the 5800x has a slight advantage but beyond that I'd struggle.

 

The other thing worth mentioning is the Solarflare X2522 is worth getting hold of.  It's a clear refinement of the 8522 cards, especially when it comes to transient attacks and obvious lower noise floor.  Just be warned its not as widely compatible with SFP+ being SFP28, but some work no problem.

1V is very low. When you went to 1V, did you lock the CPU core ratio back then? This is key otherwise the bios would make dynamic adjustments impacting performance and sound quality indeed. You can even manually lock and run the core above stock speed since there’s very little heat generated. 

 

On the 5800x, I didn’t compare the 3 series with the 5 series but the 5800x has 8 cores vs 12 and 36mo cache vs 70mo. On the other hand the 5800x has the latest architecture. Your finding seems to indicate the 5900x and 5950x might be even better and that the 5 series is better sounding than the 3 series (which absolutely makes sense because the 5 series has better performance than the 3 series). Could also be system dependent and O/S dependent.

 

On the solarflare, did you compare with Jcat Net cards (Femto or XE)? Did you notice any harshness? The reason I ask is that a couple of users including Emile from Taiko noticed some analytical nature or harshness with Solarflare cards.

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37 minutes ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

It did indeed lock the CPU cores to 3.3ghz which was more than enough to run the workloads, I also tried 1.1v resulting in 3.6ghz core speeds and got similar results.  My guess is there's a combination of cooling and power supply pressure going between different systems, hence the different outcomes, as well as running a much harder workload than simply streaming files.

 

I'm not sure tbh.  This breaks the whole more cores = better thing IMHO, as I was expecting a downgrade tbh.  Points more towards manufacturing processes and product binning.  It is interesting how the Extreme has stuck to a certain 10-core CPU as for some reason "it sounds better than the others".

 

Nope, but as mentioned the x2522 is definitely the smoother on transient attacks.  With the wrong SFPs however it can easily be made to sound aggressive / robotic.  And I use Onload which takes the performance to another level entirely quite frankly (something that can't be done in Windows). 

 

Someone else on here has compared the Femto NET powered externally and still preferred his 8522 Solarfare.  I should mention the whole network chain is powered by 5x LT3045s, with an EtherRegen and OpticalModule in the path before it arrives at the SFP which does majorly improve the SQ.  

 

37 minutes ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

It did indeed lock the CPU cores to 3.3ghz which was more than enough to run the workloads, I also tried 1.1v resulting in 3.6ghz core speeds and got similar results.  My guess is there's a combination of cooling and power supply pressure going between different systems, hence the different outcomes, as well as running a much harder workload than simply streaming files.

 

I'm not sure tbh.  This breaks the whole more cores = better thing IMHO, as I was expecting a downgrade tbh.  Points more towards manufacturing processes and product binning.  It is interesting how the Extreme has stuck to a certain 10-core CPU as for some reason "it sounds better than the others".

 

Nope, but as mentioned the x2522 is definitely the smoother on transient attacks.  With the wrong SFPs however it can easily be made to sound aggressive / robotic.  And I use Onload which takes the performance to another level entirely quite frankly (something that can't be done in Windows). 

 

Someone else on here has compared the Femto NET powered externally and still preferred his 8522 Solarfare.  I should mention the whole network chain is powered by 5x LT3045s, with an EtherRegen and OpticalModule in the path before it arrives at the SFP which does majorly improve the SQ.  

CPU sound: I think we all agree that each CPU range sound different and some definitely better, and yes Emile favors the silver dual Xeon due to the way it sounds

 

CPU cores: the Extreme does have 2x10=20 cores in total, split between core and endpoint and dedicated as such. This, in conjunction with the sound of the CPU itself, in my view - is part of the recipe for good sound.

So it appears part of the recipe is not only the CPU sound but the number of cores and the core isolation, in conjunction with the MB itself (and many other factors). In other words, it’s unlikely that the single CPU Xeon version of the same Asus Sage MB would sound as good since it has only 10 cores.
 

The next test to validate the core/power theory would be to move up in cores within the 5 series and assess impact on SQ. But it does seem to indicate the inherent CPU sound of the 5 series as a CPU range might sound better than the 3 series. 
 

I also want to mention that my test was with euphony (which allows for core isolation), not HQ player, and without upsampling, on a single PC setup. It would be interesting to know the rest of your system for context.

 

In other words having 16 cores and dedicating some to the Core and some to the player (gstp) in euphony in a single PC/CPU setup is some kind of replication of the taiko setup but on a smaller scale and without ram isolation. 
 

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29 minutes ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

I think we'd simply have to try tbh, but this logically still kills the more cores = better for me, as surely even with improvements in the 5000 series the less cores would result in worse sound?    

 

The chiplets (each 4 core unit) on the 5900x are rated at the same clock speeds as the 5800x (each 4 core unit) which suggests on paper they're using the same grade, but there's more cache on the chip too so who knows.

 

I think HQplayer and also active cooling will change the results considerably,  I've seen the same thing with running a slow active fan against a LT3045 10x PSU (considerably better SQ with fan). 

 

Would be interesting if you guys with passive cooling can try some fan cooling outside the chassis, possibly followed by higher vcores. 

 

Also the Keces PSU you use is rated to 8amps and as posted lately the HDPlex 500w offers 2x 12.5a outputs, which when both plugged into the CPU EPS resulted in a big unexpected uptick in dynamics.

Our responses crossed. I happen to have the HDplex 500w on the way so I can compare soon vs Keces P8.

 

As for the core theory, I am making the distinction between CPU cores/cache and inherent CPU sound.

 

It appears that the inherent CPU sound / performance gains of the 5 series give them a 4 core equivalent advantage vs the 3 series. However if we move up in cores within the 5 series, will the additional number of cores and additional cache make the sound even better? My prediction is that it will. Unless we have reached the point of diminishing returns. It might also be OS dependent (since euphony likes power and fully leverages all the cores) and system dependent (need a revealing system to hear the difference)

 

As for the 1v voltage and 3.3 locked core speed, the 3900x runs at 3.6 stock speed so while the decrease is small, it is a decrease in speed that could have impacted SQ and also reduces the ability of the CPU to boost. On the workload, all those cores are sitting mostly unused or with very little and very short use (without upsampling), so my theory is that the SQ boost has to do with process latency. But who knows.

I’m interested in your fan and cooling system: what exactly do you do and why SQ improves in your opinion? Passive guys tend to avoid anything that can add acoustic/electric noise and vibrations due to theoretical/potential impact on components and clocks. That includes fans, water circulation etc. Maybe to a fault?

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Slightly off topic, but for context for non-Euphony users, here is how my cores are used in Euphony while playing music. I do have very short bursts (mostly 1% on the player on 1 core, sometimes larger % on the OS), it just happened to be all zero when the screenshot was made which is how it looks like most of the time because the workload is spread over 16 cores.

 

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23 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Valuable information. Thank you. Now running 10 cores & turbo on set at 5.3

 

I set PSU setting. Long 110w & short bursts to 150w. 
 

Didn’t try under voltage. Maybe something to try later.

 

For now it’s a case of touch nothing & sit back with a pint or two! 
 

Cheers

Victory!!! :-)) enjoy the music!!

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4 hours ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

I'm no longer convinced ultra low latency is all that important either, but well behaving well orchestrated processes (i.e. harmony).  Many love Windows 10 LTSC and that is not a real-time kernel by any stretch of the imagination. 

For those who want to try real time (RT) vs non real time O/S, it can be done easily with (free) Daphile which is available with both a RT and non RT kernel. I did try both, and happen to prefer the RT kernel.

 

Windows 10 LTSC has actually a lower process latency than a stock windows 10 since it is a lightweight version with fewer processes than the regular version. And many tools like Jplay, AO, process lasso and fidelizer focus on process latency optimization showing benefits in SQ (this is quite the consensus).

 

I stand corrected on the 3900x base clock: it is 3.8Ghz (not 3.6Ghz) which means than a 3.3ghz clock speed is quite a bit lower than stock. So in the event you compared 3900x with a stock 5800x at 3.8ghz (not undervolted / down clocked) then potentially not apples to apples with a 3900x undervolted at 3.3ghz.

 

Lastly, another data point: the 3 series is on the Zen 2 architecture, and the 5 series on the newer Zen 3 architecture. As a result, even if the 5800x and 3900x run at the same 3.8ghz base clock speed, the 5800x (with half the cache) is about 25-30% faster for single thread performance, showing the benefits of the newer architecture. Therefore if single thread is heavily used by the O/S then 5800x actually performs significantly better than 3900x. Lots of variables. 

[Topk]

30 minutes ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

3900x and 5800x both at same fixed cpu speeds and both at stock voltages so I could do an apples vs apples, I haven't listened to the 3900x undervolted in over a year, it was that awful. 

 

What would be interesting?  Run your Ryzen 3950x at stock with fans cooling the external heatsinks, and see if its any better or worse. 

 

It's complex though as a Keces 8a (? I think) rail to the 12v CPU EPS socket may start to get saturated or worse not even boot up, so its possible that your hearing the PSU not keeping up rather than the CPU itself at its best.  Do try this with the HDPlex 500w though as it can supply 25a provided your mobo has dual CPU EPS sockets.  I will try undervolt the Ryzen 5800x to 1.1v out of interest mind.

 

It'll sound different for sure, but this very forum shows many happy Windows LTSC users.

 

Yes, but its not really a true real time kernel - and yet it achieves great SQ (with fiddling).  Proves my point really.  

 

 

I don't honestly think (especially for PCM streaming) its about performance really.  It does help HQP a lot though (AVX2 improvements).

 

Remember Emile himself went through all sorts of Xeon processors (with a whole range of CPU cores and clock speeds) and accidentally came across the 10 core silver Xeon which for reasons unknown, just sounded the best out of the lot.  Yes, the other CPUs he tried were MUCH faster on single threaded performance too.  And yet it didn't seem to matter.

Oh I completely agree that *dual* Xeon *with* Asus Sage C621 sounds better according to Emile. The combination.
 

Single Xeon was never tried that I’m aware of vs AMD Ryzen, and only dual XEON was tried on that dual CPU Sage c621 MB (which happens to be very expensive and industrial grade). So it’s a package.
 

In fact, I actually did test different MB on same CPU and RAM and will report soon (always only 1 variable change at a time!). Hint: significant impact of MB on sound quality. 

 

On the performance upgrade side, I did try CPU upgrade with, again, 1 variable change at a time (including going from 12 to 16 cores with all other variables unchanged) so that point specifically can actually be concluded based on actual listening test with a sample of 1 :-) .... with same architecture. And the importance of locking the CPU ratio to stock (or above) in my step by step undervolt process 

 

Another variable not mentioned is that USB card (eg Jcat) is critical to SQ with AMD (which Emile did NOT use when Xeon was selected since he tried the USB direct from the MB).

[Topk]

Test of impact of power phases and 2 of the best AMD motherboard (MB) available on the market for sound quality

 

The general consensus is that Asus MBs sound better and are favored by most. 

 

However, I noticed 2 very interesting posts from Energy and Seetoyou on the Gigabyte Aorus Master MB. It’s the first MB on the market that has 16 direct power phases. Power phases/VRM down convert and regulate the 12V and provide power to the CPU and chipset. 
 

Therefore, the idea naturally came that the Aorus Master might be the best MB for audio PC since it has the best power phases (along with 6 layer PCB, 2 oz of copper etc.) therefore benefiting from robust, low ripple, stable, more dynamic power to the CPU. Also high quality VRMs overclock better, generate much less heat etc. This is entirely measurable and all proven via benchmarks. In fact the Aorus master is considered one of the best MB for the AMD Ryzen in the PC world.
 

We also all know the critical importance of power in general since music replay is just power transformed into sound.

 

And there’s quite a consensus that power (and cable) specifically to the CPU is critical to sound quality - and that CPU’s power comes from the VRM.

 

Therefore selecting a MB with the best power phases/VRM absolutely make sense (on paper) - all other things being equal (which they never completely are... but at least we can control for the variables as much as practically possible).

 

However that hypothesis is to be tested as rigorously as possible using only 1 variable change at a time.

Some key decision criteria for the MB, in my opinion:
 

1) Chipset fan: no chipset fan since those generate noise and vibration. For AMD, that excludes most X570 chipset (except Asus Dark Hero). Pretty much all B550 qualify.

 

2) Strong power phases/VRM: 

As noted by Seetoyou, per LTT AMD VRM tier list, best MB on paper WITHOUT chipset fans (using process of elimination) are Aorus Master, Asus dark hero, both tier 1 (300A), and Asus B550e, tier 2 (250A).

 

Test of Asus B550E vs Gigabyte Aorus Master

 

Only the MB was changed. Test was performed with 3950x and - again - only variable is MB change. Burn in period for both MB. Same BIOS setup.

Hypothesis: Aorus master is the best MB vs Asus due to the best power phases/VRM on the market.

 

Result:

 

- Aorus master has excellent PRaT: very sharp and well defined transients, excellent timing, however almost in a mechanical kind of way. Excellent instrument separation as well. Excellent control over all frequencies, no bloom or muddiness. Almost like having an upgraded clock. Excellent for electronic music. However sound is tonally much more grey and bland, more shut in, less open and colorful, less compelling and - dare I say - less analogue and less naturally musical. More homogenized as well.

 

- Asus B550E. As soon as I put the MB back, there’s no question. Much more musical, natural, room filling, tonally rich, colorful, more real sounding.
 

Bottom line: the MB absolutely matters for SQ and in this A/B test, in my system and OS, Asus is the way to go. No question and very surprised by the result. This test made me want to check out the Dark Hero (tier 1 with excellent VRM) but I lost interest since B550E sounds so good.

It is unclear what the impact of power phases are - maybe transients and detail - but it is clear in my system/for my taste (usual disclaimers...) what is the best MB taken as *a package* and between those 2, it’s the Asus B550E.
 

The best one overall for AMD Ryzen for Audio might very well be the Dark Hero but that is untested. 

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14 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Good info thanks. I purchased my MB after seeing a few posts here also. I believe my Asus Maximum XII Extreme also has 16 power stages & no doublers. 

Definitely looks like a good one!

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1 hour ago, bit01 said:

My previous notes on using the i9-10900K in the GB Aorus Master- no comparison to another MOBO (yet).

I should add that both CPU and DC-ATX supply 0V wire (GND) run  straight through back to the SR7T to minimize loops.

 

 

Would be really interested if you compare with a high end Asus MB!
 

Such a test is a huge pain to do (even worse if you have a fanless case) because you need to disassemble the copper heat pipes, remount the MB and CPU, put thermal paste wait for burn in etc. I did it but will not do it again, that’s for sure. If your system reacts like mine (which we don’t know), I would say it’s totally worth trying Asus based on my listening test and would be another data point for everybody.
 

Attached showing the superiority of the unique direct 16 phase (14+2) Aorus Master VRM design over any Asus VRM currently on the market (for the sake of clarity, the middle design is typical of high end Asus, 16 (non direct) phases, no doublers). The bottom one from Asrock has doublers.

 

It’s pretty obvious based on the below why I wanted to test the Gigabyte Aorus Master (first diagram) for SQ.

 

 

 

Something else I wanted to add is that I would avoid ITX and sub ATX MB designs in general since they tend to have less robust VRM designs. That most probably outweighs potential benefits such as shorter PCB traces.

[Topk]

On 1/11/2021 at 12:57 PM, guiltyboxswapper said:

I have one of the first HDPlex 500w units, which has proven to be very decent (though I don't have anything else to compare it to that's not SMPS!).  I dont use the LT3045 outputs mind.  

 

One of the biggest surprises however is using both 12v outputs (PCIE and CPU EPS) to feed both ATX12v sockets on my motherboard (x570 + Ryzen 3900x).  Instead of placing most of the CPU 12v load on a single rail, its now spread across the 2 rails which clearly results in a obvious across-the-board uptick in sound quality with HQPe running.  It also means I have a good upto 25amps available to the CPU.

 

And as always for me at least, the shortest cables ATX cables win.

The MB has 2 CPU input connectors: 8 pin and 4 pin. Do you connect the HDplex CPU cable on the 8 pin and then one PCIe cable on the 4 pin? My original plan was to use HDplex 500w on 1 CPU connector and Keces P8 on the other CPU connector. But maybe using the 2 HDplex rails is the way to go. Will probably end up with SR7 or Taiko converter/unregulated DYI combo eventually... depending on feedback. 

[Topk]

3 hours ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

Firstly I own the X570 Aorus Master and coming from an Intel based solution (granted a few gens old at that point) your description doesn't match with my own experience tbh. 

 

What your comparisons  did remind me of is when I introduced something which at first seemed worse than before, but it often turned out there was a bottleneck elsewhere that when rectified, then reintroduced the same change made a lot more sense.  But this is DIY and what works for one may not work for another, so take it as it is!

When you say your experience doesn’t match mine, do you mind giving more details on what is your experience i.e. what did you compare with what?

 

Especially since you also mention that the prior solution you compared with was a “few gen old” which would then introduce many different variables.

 

More details on the MB, CPU, hifi system used would be useful to provide additional context and assess this additional data point.

 

[Topk]

33 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

To Hyper Thread or to not for non upsampling.,
 

Many users do recommend HT but some suggest to deactivate it. 

Anyone want to explain the for & against? 

 

Generally speaking, HT is not recommended for SQ when not upsampling. It appears HT might add some layer of processing by creating the logical cores which might be detrimental to SQ. Same with AMD for SMT. But it might be dependent on the OS you use and it’s better to test for yourself and see which one you prefer in your system, your OS, use case etc. I tested on my system with Euphony and disabled SMT.

 

When it comes to upsampling, it appears that  the benefits of using HT outweigh the drawbacks. @Streamfidelity did recommend enabling HT for upsampling and should be able to provide more details. 

[Topk]

3 minutes ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

I'll PM as to not pollute.  If you can, try it (x570) again with the HDPlex 500w.  

I don’t think it’s polluting at all, it’s sharing findings with all so that we progress our understanding of audio PC  :-)

[Topk]

17 minutes ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

Kind of, but I have to admit, some systems just will have a different result to others.  For example I've gone rather extreme on the vibration control, so much so my networking gear (apart from the Solarflare cards themselves) are 20m+ out the way and also on vibration control!  There's a degree of "take it with a pinch of salt, and just make whatever work for you" going on here, rather than science IMHO.  Which is fine.

Completely agree. All disclaimers apply! There’s so much we can do as a community. 

[Topk]

Recommendation for the El Fidelity PCIe power filter

This is another item that I didn’t see much discussion about. This time, the report is based on 2 different systems (sample of 2...): mine, and my friend’s. There’s a favorable report from alpha audio as well.
 

I have already  described my system. For context again: my friend has been in the game for many years (left AS a while back once he felt there was nothing else to learn there), his system is a highly tweaked PC audio with Asus / Apacer / 3900x / x570 / custom made silver DC cables / SLC SSDs in a top of the line Synology NAS powered by LPS, 7 LPS all around, fiber optic, ~10 different switches/routers at his home (not all used at the same time obviously) with custom made Ethernet cables, Jcat XEs, DDC, external disciplined clock, custom network settings, tens of thousands of dollars in various cables, balanced isolation transformer combined with custom made power filtering...etc..etc. He tried everything on the market you can think of including ~10 MBs (including supermicro, Asus, Gigabyte...), all the different storage methods including Taiko’s Optane 900P. You name it. Went down very deep into the rabbit hole.
 

Anyway, to cut a long story short, we both use the EF PCIe power filter. There are 2 connector sides so you should try both sides. What it does is add better separation in the sound. Less muddiness. Easier to follow the different strands of the music. There’s a slight change in tonal balance but it’s not objectionable. I tested up to 3 of those stuffed in the MB, now down to 1 on the short side. 

 

Bought and tried ALL the other EF products and that’s the only one I recommend (eg SATA filter, memory filter, even CPU fan filter...etc.).
 

Considering the very low price it’s well worth trying and would enjoy hearing reports from others. This thing looks almost comical, but it makes a positive  change. Hope this helps someone.

 

Usual disclaimers: in those 2 systems, personal preferences, YMMV etc

 

[Topk]

26 minutes ago, MarcelNL said:

@Topk i have looked at the ELfidelity products but I'm not very partial to the types of caps on them so I passed.

Did you try add some decent caps to your EPS and ATX cables? 

I didn’t try that but I’m certain my friend did since he tried pretty much everything you can think of. He is using large caps in the mains power path in his custom power filtering (Mundorf): it’s allegedly something that is unique that he has refined over many years. But not on EPS and ATX, he’s using silver cables (not the Mundorf silver/gold from Nenon). I’m using FIS audio (probably some kind of OCC) and plan to try some Ghent.
 

What did you do exactly and how did it impact the sound? 

 

Yes absolutely the EF so called “rainbow” caps look bad. It’s almost revolting to use this product, and in fact I was thinking of modding one of the 2 I don’t use with the best caps I could find. I even looked into Audio note caps. Yes, this EF thing is not supposed to work. The middle ones are bipolar of increasing values of 10, 100 uF... etc (on top of my mind).

 

BUT my philosophy is to listen without prejudice: proof is in the listening result and that overrides everything else. And the EF helps. YMMV

 

Maybe there’s an opportunity to do a similar product with the best audio caps on the market. 

[Topk]

45 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

I don't understand how it works.

 

Audiophonics writes: The AXF-107 module from Elfidelity is a switch mode power supply filter for computers connected in PCI Express or PCI Express 16x and designed to provide cleaner power to all connected cards (sound card, interfaces, GPU ...).

 

My questions:

 

1. Is the PCIe card simply plugged into a free slot and "sucks" EMI interference?

2. How is the power consumption?

3. Are there any recommendations as to which slot to use?

1. it’s supposed to suck some noise from the power supply. I am not sure about EMI. 

 2. I don’t have this information

 3. since I already use the 2 direct to CPU (not going through the chipset) PCIe slots with the Jcat cards, I just use whatever PCIe slot left on the MB, physically away from the other cards. The EF card is not hot under operation 

 

I’m wondering if the EF works under the same principles that the Jcat USB enhancer (attached)

 

Another tip about PCIe slots: since the Ryzen CPU I use does not have an internal graphics card, I use a passive graphics cards to make BIOS changes but once I’m done, I remove the graphics card from the MB. The MB boots without it, no problem, and I then run headless with Euphony. Removing the graphic card improves noticeably the sound quality. Less power consumption, less heat, less noise...etc. I assume disabling the internal GPU for a CPU with IGPU *might* have SQ benefits as well, if running with a headless O/S (assuming the BIOS allows to boot without it).

 

In the end, the MB has no graphic card, no chipset fan (or any fan), 1 EF power filter, and no SATA, WiFi, Bluetooth, RGB leds, onboard LAN, USB ports (if not used).., etc: all disabled in the BIOS. Only 1 stick of 4gb RAM. I’m also considering physically removing some of these onboard devices on the MB (eg wifi) like others have.

 

 

[Topk]

30 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

Many Thanks. I'll just try it out now. 👍

Please do report, I’m interested to know what you and others find out:

- I would start on the long connector side. If the effect is too strong, just flip the card on the short side. If you like what you hear, just add more...

- There’s a burn in period

- I disable the LEDs on the card (switches), “just because”

- if you want to close the lid of the H5, you will need to cut off the connector side you don’t use since it sticks out

Stating the obvious: no affiliation whatsoever with EF or audiophonics or Jcat.

product description:

“The AXF-107 module from Elfidelity is a switch mode power supply filter for computers connected in PCI Express or PCI Express 16x and designed to provide cleaner power to all connected cards (sound card, interfaces, GPU...).

Developed by Elfidelity, this product provides a HiFi solution to the noise problem of switched-mode power supplies equipping the vast majority of computers. Its careful architecture includes muRata and TDK inductors to reduce EMI interference, Sanyo SVPF Polymer capacitors, AVX Tantalum capacitors, WIMA MKP-10 capacitors or EVOX MMK Metal capacitors. Two groups of RGB LEDs can be controlled independently, with 7 colors available. Moreover, its installation is very simple since no driver is required.”