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Cable wars 2020 - a FB experience

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Guys,
I found a facebook  pic, showing a printer with Cardas power plug & usb cable, a small teaser for some fun under high end audiophiles, who share some passion for their hobby.
Intended for some fun, until the usual suspects started their duelling.
Not that it has been different this time, but I looked for the achetype arguments from both sides, and it was just perfectly orchestrated to distill it and have a short analytical rundown.
The fun started instantly as a warm up :
- Ink jet will print like a LASER!! - Now your ink will go twice as far before running out ! - I bet now you have deeper colors and wider pixels even your wife can tell the difference
- You'll see an incredible improvement in color-transients! - It should print full 3D now. - You notice that the printer prints with blacker backgrounds and lower noise ?? -  That’s not a hi-end printer - Should sound better. The top end of the fonts should be smoother with no back smudge too - Soundstage improved 2000 pages later? - Make sure the cables do not lie on the floor and you will achieve motion printing. - After 2000 pages everything printed become 3D, more full body? - I'm not a fan of the room treatment. I'm sure you can hear the paper rollers way louder than the ink transfer pumps.

That was kinda funny just before the main act arrived: cable wars veterans are rumbling in:
SJ1 - You are not an audiophile. Please go back to AV forums
OJ1 - someone had an extra large cup of “I don’t have a sense of humor” today didn’t they.
SJ1 -This type of hi-fi denial is rampant now so I took this as more of that. Hopefully you can see from the comments that many are taking it seriously or at least a chance to deny the importance of good cables
OJ2 - yeah, are the leading edges of the bits more straight up and down? do they run faster thru 'hi-end' cables?

This made me think I should look at the arguments, dismissals and personal attacks in that exchange and see if it underlines my feeling/thinking/analysis about this topic and actors. Here is the original discussion with pictures.
 

Here are som ideas from my side:

There is a ground note that people are worn off from the fighting, nonetheless, they continue to stand their ground. I have not seen all of these wars, but there seems to be a tendency within the subjectivist side to be more careless with attacking the other side, calling names and so-on.
One of my serious problems has been to divide between facts and pseudo-facts from the subjective side, I just listed almost everything that gave me the impression they believe in it as a fact.
I do not want to paint them all the same and gave some  beliefs as well a touch of pseudo-facts.

The most interesting point comes in their line of defense facts. MY system My ears - much better than  - your system  your ears,!!!
That's their only demand: Show me a picture of your system with you in front of it.
(so I can show mine as well ...).
Which correlates a lot with the investment in a system but only very indirectly with the knowledge about how a signal is processed and how acoustics are working.

Even I would not know about Audio and the cable wars, reading the attached  "dialogue" would left me with clear sympathy for the objectivists, with same sour tasting impression regarding their provocative self-righteousness and their table manners.
The subjectivists make me feel pity them with their focus on extra-materialistic demeanor to oppose basic facts. Self-righteousness can be found there as well. Though, they pity themselves a lot for their role in the cable wars and the losses they made.

 

If I look at this I may think there's our hobby at stake, and I would wonder why people capable of spending big bucks on cables can't live with the fact that there is no supportive science for the effects connected to the perceived performance?

In my opinion, the effect for them is supremely important, and I am really happy about anyone who reach their Audirvana with cables that may cost twice a proper room treatment, or even more. Please consider it as a personal experience with little connection to general truth. Which does not mean at all that you didn't perceive it like you can describe it.
Your room, your equipment, your cables. Strictly personal.
Don't look at the margins of your cable provider, that only kills the fun.
OTOH, in an act of self reflection they might like to avoid disrespecting other peoples who do not have the same liquidity, university degree, mind set, set up, room,  belief, sight or ears.
What they perceive is a highly personal experience that differs individually and isn't founded on a general scientific basis.
If the subjective camp is capable to containment, I  would think that for most people in the other camp these kind of humbleness would be greatly appreciated.
Only caveat, a point I have seen far too often in my life, there might be an important effect lost, the bragging about the new toy, with that kind of comportment.
And isn't our wonderful hobby not always a bit about bragging and confirmation?
Or just about the Music???

Tom

Next post a small comparison about the main expressions in that dialogue ...

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Subjectivist Objectivist
Facts Facts
Ha, the most recent issue of Stereophile mag has an article that you have no need to read. Its for audiophiles. My claim: that two cables with identical I/R/C per meter will sound the same, carry the same MEASURABLE signal, whether analog or digital. Longer cables do need better shielding.
It's a great thing because every single person on there that has the same opinion as these dopes above all have sub par systems we can listen to the STARS, can map the bat's sonar -- and your hearing is better/finer than laboratory equipment
Denying cable difference is such a glaring symptom of audio ignorance. Odd that every component inside every component we use was carefully specced - using MEASUREMENTS - by engineers, and with oversight that those components don't VARY from SPEC during the purchasing and manufacturing steps
in Audio, and we’ve been aware of that fact since we realized in the eighties that two amps with similar output power, frequency response, and distortion levels could sound different the science in the very mundane, narrow band of audio has been well understood for a very long time
workbench equipment will never equal ears Simple Thevenin equivalent models can be made to show and give extremely accurate and predictable outcomes. 
i have 2 science degrees kiddo  What you are experiencing is psychological in nature, expectation bias and not an actual improvement in reality.
if your pathetic recourse to the « placebo » and « expectations » explanation would be true, then every time we buy a newer, more expensive cable it would be better than the one before, but it is VERY FAR from being the case. We all had bad surprises after spending more. The contempt is for your reasoning powers
Subpar stereos or even computer systems. It's true that you can't hear the difference with cables on shit systems  The dots connecting paid ad space for unicorn cables,and reviews in these magazines, has clearly escaped you
I want to make a forum that has a Q&A where i could weed them out. that cables with the same I/R/C per meter WILL SOUND THE SAME. YOUR 
I used to be like them but i was never strutting around anywhere making my ignorance known Your ears AREN'T better than readily-available standard workbench instruments
I - and a group of other guys - have been forced to leave a French audiophile group, becaUse every time one of us posted something about a cable (mains, interconnect, speaker) the same idiots came laughing and ruining the post, leaving no space for passionates to exchange. It’s  HERE is a frequency response chart from Dynaudio for their Special Forty. Loudspeaker manufacturers, knowing they're always being compared to others, and to others in their product line, are eager to SHARE these MEASUREMENTS because it shows how their speakers reproduce known waveforms.. you know, an INDUSTRY STANDARD METHODOLOGY
A flat response is just what it is: a flat response.   
Im basically compiling list of people to block from this. There was even a "OK boomer" comment  
Pseduo facts Pseduo facts
People who truly understand the nature of audio do not limit things to what can be proven with meters.  You just regret spending more than a car on a usb cable and feel like you have to justify it by bashing people with more sense than you on the internet
If you have ears or a system that is refined enough to notice subtle changes then I wouldn't be having this discussion with you So when you get an MRI do you tell the lab technician that their equipment is subpar and that they cannot measure your benevolence? Sadly you misunderstand and underestimate what can be measured, modeled and predictably understood. 
And yeah silver versus copper is well established among audiophiles. name calling shows how desperate your argument is
There's a whole quantum element to audio that we don't even touch upon. Audiophiles learn pretty quick that a lot of things don't make sense other than from what can be heard  
If you have ever tried different cables and heard no difference you either have a system that does not provide high resolution capabilities   
or your hearing is not great  
 I have a few sound engineers and producers in my acquaintances; while they didn’t believe in cable sound at first, they would never have rubbed it into my face, because in doubt, humility and experimentation are the only valid answers.  
but obviously are not capable of hearing difference between cables  
They have systems where general distortion hides all the fine details.   
general attacks general attacks
You are not an audiophile what a joke.
deny the importance of good cables Good luck with your religious audio cult.
The Steve Hoffman Forums used to be a great place until it got filled up with people like you who don't really believe in hi-fi And the rest of you religious nuts.. you're not chasing me out of here. I've done my best to be respectful, keeping the focus on the CABLES.
what a load of bullshit.  
And they are SO cocky in their ignorance too.   
And my comment above goes for anyone else who thinks cables make no difference and want to be a big mouth.  
personal attacks personal attacks
your comment is so lost that i would simoly not communicate to you again A mind like yours can't insult me
this person is also not very astute with audio. Done with you. Pretty pathetic
YOU are the angry little hornet, sir. You and the other cablo-sceptics, shouting at people on audiophile forums.   
Your knowledge on physical systems is obviously extremely limited and your inability to hear differences with cables is because of one of the two reasons I already stated. If you choose to be only a scientist with respect to audio you will always be in the dark.  
ignorant person  
ad-hominem ad-hominem
Clueless people most def with shit systems and/or poor hearing All you angry little hornets, swarming around..
You losers  You're like an Evangenital condemning Science
clueless people like you  You're a deluded piece of work 
typical clueless non audiophile person  
shut your mouth  
shut the eff up since you didnt share your equipment.  
demands demands
please list your audio components and post a picture of yourself standing in front of them show us a frequency chart. ONE.
  My 'fun' is watching you writhe around and resort to insults when cornered.. show me a simple before-after frequency response comparison on ANY 'high end' cable. You can't, because the lying manufacturers won't DO THAT. Or if they do, since there IS no magical difference from cables with the same I/R/C, they suppress 
  and what manufacturers allowed unpredictable, different sounding units to go out the door? Which ones did they hand over for review? ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE, especially from the hard-core deluded, IS NO EVIDENCE AT ALL. I'm supposed to believe you, and Adams? SHOW US a FREQUENCY PLOT of the original signal and the magically better OUTPUT, or shut it
provocation provocation
So you are here why?  yeah, are the leading edges of the bits more straight up and down
I just feel sorry for people who dont get to hear what many of us do do they run faster thru 'hi-end' cables?
Here is where you need to be: https://www.avforums.com/forums/ what's really hysterical is the predictable nature of the 'argument
The list of clueless newbs grows!. I love the technical exxplanations the best I’ve forgotten more about high end cable solutions than you will ever learn
isnt it funny that these guys are on this audiophile group looking at really expensive equipment while they apparently have total contempt for high-end equipment?  The gullible believe that, and memorize the arguments FOR magic and AGAINST science. So in a way that's the same position a superstitious peasant takes, innit? You know, delusional.
this guy wants me to provide digital proof of things like soundstage, decay, timing, blackness You claim your cables make such drastic improvements well it should be easily measurable and modeled yet nobody can ever produce such evidence of it because it is non existent

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10 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Why do you assume that he can't write a forum post and listen to music at the same time?

 Unlike the female of the species, the majority of males aren't that great at multi tasking, unless you believe that listening to elevator type Muzac while working passes for enjoying high quality music.

 


How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

 

PROFILE UPDATED 26-12-2019

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10 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Unlike the female of the species, the majority of males aren't that great at multi tasking, unless you believe that listening to elevator type Muzac while working passes for enjoying high quality music.

 

 

I have found that listening to certain types of music while writing helps the process immensely. 


Girl, you want it, you take it, you pay the price

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