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Cable wars 2020 - a FB experience


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Subjectivist Objectivist
Facts Facts
Ha, the most recent issue of Stereophile mag has an article that you have no need to read. Its for audiophiles. My claim: that two cables with identical I/R/C per meter will sound the same, carry the same MEASURABLE signal, whether analog or digital. Longer cables do need better shielding.
It's a great thing because every single person on there that has the same opinion as these dopes above all have sub par systems we can listen to the STARS, can map the bat's sonar -- and your hearing is better/finer than laboratory equipment
Denying cable difference is such a glaring symptom of audio ignorance. Odd that every component inside every component we use was carefully specced - using MEASUREMENTS - by engineers, and with oversight that those components don't VARY from SPEC during the purchasing and manufacturing steps
in Audio, and we’ve been aware of that fact since we realized in the eighties that two amps with similar output power, frequency response, and distortion levels could sound different the science in the very mundane, narrow band of audio has been well understood for a very long time
workbench equipment will never equal ears Simple Thevenin equivalent models can be made to show and give extremely accurate and predictable outcomes. 
i have 2 science degrees kiddo  What you are experiencing is psychological in nature, expectation bias and not an actual improvement in reality.
if your pathetic recourse to the « placebo » and « expectations » explanation would be true, then every time we buy a newer, more expensive cable it would be better than the one before, but it is VERY FAR from being the case. We all had bad surprises after spending more. The contempt is for your reasoning powers
Subpar stereos or even computer systems. It's true that you can't hear the difference with cables on shit systems  The dots connecting paid ad space for unicorn cables,and reviews in these magazines, has clearly escaped you
I want to make a forum that has a Q&A where i could weed them out. that cables with the same I/R/C per meter WILL SOUND THE SAME. YOUR 
I used to be like them but i was never strutting around anywhere making my ignorance known Your ears AREN'T better than readily-available standard workbench instruments
I - and a group of other guys - have been forced to leave a French audiophile group, becaUse every time one of us posted something about a cable (mains, interconnect, speaker) the same idiots came laughing and ruining the post, leaving no space for passionates to exchange. It’s  HERE is a frequency response chart from Dynaudio for their Special Forty. Loudspeaker manufacturers, knowing they're always being compared to others, and to others in their product line, are eager to SHARE these MEASUREMENTS because it shows how their speakers reproduce known waveforms.. you know, an INDUSTRY STANDARD METHODOLOGY
A flat response is just what it is: a flat response.   
Im basically compiling list of people to block from this. There was even a "OK boomer" comment  
Pseduo facts Pseduo facts
People who truly understand the nature of audio do not limit things to what can be proven with meters.  You just regret spending more than a car on a usb cable and feel like you have to justify it by bashing people with more sense than you on the internet
If you have ears or a system that is refined enough to notice subtle changes then I wouldn't be having this discussion with you So when you get an MRI do you tell the lab technician that their equipment is subpar and that they cannot measure your benevolence? Sadly you misunderstand and underestimate what can be measured, modeled and predictably understood. 
And yeah silver versus copper is well established among audiophiles. name calling shows how desperate your argument is
There's a whole quantum element to audio that we don't even touch upon. Audiophiles learn pretty quick that a lot of things don't make sense other than from what can be heard  
If you have ever tried different cables and heard no difference you either have a system that does not provide high resolution capabilities   
or your hearing is not great  
 I have a few sound engineers and producers in my acquaintances; while they didn’t believe in cable sound at first, they would never have rubbed it into my face, because in doubt, humility and experimentation are the only valid answers.  
but obviously are not capable of hearing difference between cables  
They have systems where general distortion hides all the fine details.   
general attacks general attacks
You are not an audiophile what a joke.
deny the importance of good cables Good luck with your religious audio cult.
The Steve Hoffman Forums used to be a great place until it got filled up with people like you who don't really believe in hi-fi And the rest of you religious nuts.. you're not chasing me out of here. I've done my best to be respectful, keeping the focus on the CABLES.
what a load of bullshit.  
And they are SO cocky in their ignorance too.   
And my comment above goes for anyone else who thinks cables make no difference and want to be a big mouth.  
personal attacks personal attacks
your comment is so lost that i would simoly not communicate to you again A mind like yours can't insult me
this person is also not very astute with audio. Done with you. Pretty pathetic
YOU are the angry little hornet, sir. You and the other cablo-sceptics, shouting at people on audiophile forums.   
Your knowledge on physical systems is obviously extremely limited and your inability to hear differences with cables is because of one of the two reasons I already stated. If you choose to be only a scientist with respect to audio you will always be in the dark.  
ignorant person  
ad-hominem ad-hominem
Clueless people most def with shit systems and/or poor hearing All you angry little hornets, swarming around..
You losers  You're like an Evangenital condemning Science
clueless people like you  You're a deluded piece of work 
typical clueless non audiophile person  
shut your mouth  
shut the eff up since you didnt share your equipment.  
demands demands
please list your audio components and post a picture of yourself standing in front of them show us a frequency chart. ONE.
  My 'fun' is watching you writhe around and resort to insults when cornered.. show me a simple before-after frequency response comparison on ANY 'high end' cable. You can't, because the lying manufacturers won't DO THAT. Or if they do, since there IS no magical difference from cables with the same I/R/C, they suppress 
  and what manufacturers allowed unpredictable, different sounding units to go out the door? Which ones did they hand over for review? ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE, especially from the hard-core deluded, IS NO EVIDENCE AT ALL. I'm supposed to believe you, and Adams? SHOW US a FREQUENCY PLOT of the original signal and the magically better OUTPUT, or shut it
provocation provocation
So you are here why?  yeah, are the leading edges of the bits more straight up and down
I just feel sorry for people who dont get to hear what many of us do do they run faster thru 'hi-end' cables?
Here is where you need to be: https://www.avforums.com/forums/ what's really hysterical is the predictable nature of the 'argument
The list of clueless newbs grows!. I love the technical exxplanations the best I’ve forgotten more about high end cable solutions than you will ever learn
isnt it funny that these guys are on this audiophile group looking at really expensive equipment while they apparently have total contempt for high-end equipment?  The gullible believe that, and memorize the arguments FOR magic and AGAINST science. So in a way that's the same position a superstitious peasant takes, innit? You know, delusional.
this guy wants me to provide digital proof of things like soundstage, decay, timing, blackness You claim your cables make such drastic improvements well it should be easily measurable and modeled yet nobody can ever produce such evidence of it because it is non existent
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10 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Unlike the female of the species, the majority of males aren't that great at multi tasking, unless you believe that listening to elevator type Muzac while working passes for enjoying high quality music.

 

 

I have found that listening to certain types of music while writing helps the process immensely. 

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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1 hour ago, sandyk said:

in this present thread , the original thread was moved here at the request of the OP, and my reply in this thread was made more than a month before this Objective forum was even mentioned. (On ‎1‎/‎7‎/‎2020 at 12:53 PM)

 

@sandyk

Alex, please stay away from this thread, like forever.
I have reported all your posts in this thread to Chris with the demand to have them removed. As en experienced user of this and other forums you know exactly why that happened. So no need to discuss your motives and excuses.
However, you have the right to continue discussing the subject with me on a pm basis, if you subdue to the ground of common sense and civility.
Thanks, Tom

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On 1/7/2020 at 2:25 AM, GUTB said:

This subject isn't remotely difficult. Just listen to a given cable to hear what differences there are. In my case I've listened to a bunch of different cables the experience ranged from a negative impact, no impact to a positive impact. 

 

However, the subject isn't about cables making a difference to begin with. I understand that. The issue is class warfare and social aspects of the hobby. For example, no one is stopping you from listening to a cable except yourself. If good OCC copper and high end dielectric and shielded cables with quality terminals cost $1 a foot there wouldn't be a "debate" because everyone would own them.

Sorry, GUTB, that I did not respond earlier ...


Thank you for your participation and your reflective response.
Imho, you made a partially valid point which may help to approach to the core of the debate.

 

I have no personal problems with quality terminals and properly constructed cables for the mechanical aspect of a wired connection, though investing 5k in a pair of interconnects instead of proper room treatment for the same budget occurs to me as a flawed concept that can create the situation, where the need to defend that precise decision with unfounded claims and the rejection of reason may occur more lightly.
At the other hand, we need to ask, if the urge for exagerrated margins on products like cables is a factor and if it does instantly feed the need to have a marketing machine that sustains the debate in all its glory?

I admit,  that I may have been a bit rushed too much into the critic of the subjectivist's role in that dialogue by the force of their agitation when I actually only wanted to be descriptive,

Cheers, Tom

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This thread is intended to reflect the mechanisms which lead to the CW, rather than to feed them as it has been feared when it was posted a month ago..

If you have the intention to derail the thread, to belittle the posters or to not contribute to an objective discussion about the reasons why the discourse in our hobby is in that miserable state, please stay away.
We all know that this is nothing new. However, I encourage all of you to not give up on looking for common ground, because that may lead into exclusion and isolation.
In my reflections, our hobby has more than one reality, it is not only about measurements, numbers and engineering, but has a significant personal and subjective component, that need to be taken into account.

In our hobby, exact and tested science per se correlates with personal tastes and conditions. Worn out ears, a very personal history of music consumption, a life full of events forming the listener's perception, and sometimes fragile minds, may altogether meet craftsmanship, modern science based material development and fully perfected work floors, machinery and processes.

Our personal component may never be as astute as the high end product finishing. This fact should imho allow us to respect personal perceptions that may deviate from popular science knowledge. However, they aren't the law of physics and shouldn't treated like that, and we should not fight/defend these perceptions as the gold standard but recognize on what leads us to our convictions/perceptions.

Listening to music is a deep personal experience for many (me included), connected to past moments, to sensations and dreams or to the presence, and people should be free to decide how much they want to invest for a given product.

Belittling others because they don't buy into their arguments, as a consequence of owning expensive gear, does not support any case of discussion as it does not help to use confrontational therapy to convince the owner of 5k cables that they may have had a better impact on sq when choosing a different path for upgrading their system.


Having called the thread a meta-view on the arguments in the war-zone, I like to invite both sides to reflect and participate to find a common ground, making suggestions how we can communicate between each other without degrading the forum.

There had been already too much war in our beautiful hobby, says Tom,  the audio pacifist.

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Hi Tom,

 

I don't quite understand the purpose of this thread. Seems to be a discussion of the disagreements that have been festering in this hobby for at least 30+ years. Do you feel that talking about this just one more time will somehow help heal the divide? I'm very skeptical, but you're welcome to try again 🤷‍♂️ Best of luck!

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4 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

Best of luck!

Thank you! As well for asking ...
My intentions are:

- not to give up upon the divide. I am annoyed reading a discussion as the one pictured in post #2, bc if you accept that as reality you  have lost´common ground forever.
- have a source for the new entries and for people, who haven't profited from the war correspondence for the last 30+ years in order to get a halfway balanced picture.
- to create a place for curious questions on the subject with - fingers crossed - objective responses
- and a space where posting and content is not dependend on the goodwil of the ones, who disagree
 

I need to admit, that I am not particularly confident that it will work out as I wish for, perhaps it's a form of die trying ... to keep alive the spirit that inspired me when I came to CA first.
Though, I feel a bit like an idealistic teenage pacifist again ... 

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2 hours ago, barrows said:

No arguments here...  I have one thing to contribute:

 

Iconoclast Cables, designed using solid science and measurements, and manufactured by world respected industrial cable giant Belden!

 

(shhh, ps: they sound good to, oops!)

 

I dunno man. Low inductance while keeping capacitance relatively low - excellent! But the resistance of 1.2mΩ/ft seems a bit high for what looks like 24 strands x 24AWG = 10AWG. That plus the fact that they're asking something like $2000 for 10-feet pair with banana plugs seems a bit of poor value. I'll take my chances elsewhere ;-).

 

 

Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile.

Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism.

:nomqa: R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Archimago said:

That plus the fact that they're asking something like $2000 for 10-feet pair with banana plugs seems a bit of poor value. I'll take my chances elsewhere ;-).

Easy to duplicate the audio band measurements and listening tests for under one dollar per foot at the electrical supply store.

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Thank you for your contribution,  @barrows

 

13 hours ago, barrows said:

No arguments here...  I have one thing to contribute:

 

Iconoclast Cables, designed using solid science and measurements, and manufactured by world respected industrial cable giant Belden!

 

(shhh, ps: they sound good to, oops!)

I had seen the discussion at ASR concerning the Iconoclast cables and I agree that the manufacturer/distributor has made a correct business decision to promote this cables. There is a market for a them.
 

OTOH, I share the idea of @archimago, that the pricing could be a bit of a showstopper, though

Under the premises, that cables that are build and messure well, should have no coloration to the sound, I may try to find my luck in products in lower price ranges that measure likewise. I have no intention to promote bell wire!!! My economic self would rather guide me to the standard range of the Belden or BJC.

 

9 hours ago, Archimago said:

Low inductance while keeping capacitance relatively low - excellent! But the resistance of 1.2mΩ/ft seems a bit high for what looks like 24 strands x 24AWG = 10AWG

 

@Archimagothanks for chiming in.
 

If you find the time, you may like to elaborate why you wouldn't support the manufacturer's explanation regarding the resistance?
https://iconoclastcable.com/blog/archives/167  As this is not my area of expertise, I personally can't exclude that he made the correct conclusions and it would be good to understand what's wrong with that.

For myself, I have an idea about how much money I'd prefer to invest for well manufactured 4 quad cables if these will meet the specs of the iconoclast range roughly. I'd be happy to include a one third goodwill for a proper product (see and feel) and for proper working conditions (often difficult when the production is in Asia ...), though I would not really adjust more money than 25 USD/m (8 USD/ feet) including the aforementioned goodwill. Not to forget shipping/distribution to Europe. 
The wiring in use here has arrived from A-warehouse deal, Dynavox Perfect Sound in 2x5 m and 2x3 meters and for the 16 m I've paid  less than 90 USD, less than 2 USD per feet, incl. the 16 connectors.  (4 x 2.5 mm2 for high resolution. Inner conductor OFC (oxygen-free copper (99.99%), Twin, construction each 2 leads per pin +/-)

This is the price for pre-manufactured cables, made in Asia. I had a conversation with the manufacturer in Germany regarding individually tailored cables, which was about 4x the price for half the material due to added labor for individual configuration. As a consequence I took cables, eventually used for demonstration purposes and accepted visible packaging defaults. But hey, these are cables ... and they do their job pretty good.

OTOH, I would not be in favour of @Speedskater's proposed solution, without having a as least
a) a comparison chart between the a forementioned cables and your proposal
b) an independent test result if marketing numbers (and your assumptions) proves to be correct.
In case you have them - Speedskater - please post them or the link here.  Not for me personally, but for readers, who would want to rely on that knowledge. Given the recent change of climate, without evidence your expertise may suffer a bit otherwise ...

 

Cheers, Tom

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2 hours ago, Speedskater said:

Easy to duplicate the audio band measurements and listening tests for under one dollar per foot at the electrical supply store.

 

Will talk about this this week on the blog :-).

 

 

Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile.

Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism.

:nomqa: R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Archimago said:

Clearly this IS a topic to be discussed in this space. We're in "Objective-Fi"! Audibility can of course be tested using standard techniques and we can make generalizations about the threshold of human audibility based on scientific principles.

 

I will leave it to any individual to decide for themselves whether there is an audible improvement.  Iconoclast cables are available for audition with no financial risk, so anyone can decide for themselves.

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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2 hours ago, CG said:

 

There is another aspect to this that rarely gets mentioned.

 

It's too long to go into detail on a forum like this, but amplifiers are inherently unstable devices.  That's because the devices used have parasitic elements associated with them and the basic processes used to fabricate the parts cause a rolloff in gain as you go higher in frequency.

 

As one example, an emitter follower stage, such as used in almost every bipolar transistor power amplifier output stage, reaches a frequency where the current gain starts falling.  This translates into a change in input impedance at that frequency.  This can and usually does cause a peaking in voltage gain.  Stability can therefore be a problem.  

 

The details of the instability and the amount depend on the devices themselves, the circuit they are used in, whatever other parasitic elements are in that circuit, and the load itself.  

 

This is why you see "Zobel" networks used at amplifier outputs in an attempt to mitigate the effects of the load.  (Bob Cordell's book on audio amplifier design discusses this at length.). There's other possible solutions, too.

 

With regard to cables, they are part of the load impedance.  That is true whether you're talking about power amplifiers with loudspeakers or preamps with the power amplifier input as the designated load.

 

So, there's an effect caused by the cables with regard to instability.  This in turn can change the characteristics of the amplifier performance.  This is mathematically demonstrable and testable - as objective as you can get.

 

Neither of these links were written by quacks.

 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/noise-on-emitter-follower/?action=dlattach;attach=348962

 

http://audioworkshop.org/downloads/AMPLIFIERS_OSCILLATION_BJT_CIRCUITS.pdf

 

Yeah, no consumer product should have these problems.  No "pro" product should either.  How many are tested in this regard?  Have you ever seen published measurements?

 

These aren't simple and obvious details.

 

Yes, high bandwidth transistor amplifiers paired with extremely low impedance and high capacitance cables could oscillate. As you already pointed out in the articles, these are known effects and solutions are available. Also, as you noted, consumer and pro products these days should not experience problems...

 

Are you saying this is something folks measuring amplifiers should always test for? Would be interesting to hear what you think the methodology should be... Maybe a few feet of old Polk Cobra, a low impedance AMT tweeter, some specific test signal to see if this induces oscillation up above 100kHz to MHz range? Quite doable but hopefully within reason as there's no need to stress the amp with totally unrealistic parameters...

 

 

Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile.

Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism.

:nomqa: R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

 

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Well, I'm not a guy with his own web site for these things, so I won't offer any suggestions since I wouldn't be the one doing the measurements.  That would hardly be fair on my part.  I will say that going to extremes is not necessary to show this effect.

 

My point in mentioning that one particular detail is that there's far more subtle variables than a simplified model shows or suggests.  And, these details are hardly outliers.  Or insignificant.  You can spend a a few hours with a simulation tool like LTSpice and discover that pretty easily.   (LTSpice is free, BTW.)  Or, you can measure it.  The tests usually performed are probably very accurate, but hardly even close to complete.  

 

 

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1 minute ago, CG said:

Well, I'm not a guy with his own web site for these things, so I won't offer any suggestions since I wouldn't be the one doing the measurements.  That would hardly be fair on my part.  I will say that going to extremes is not necessary to show this effect.

 

My point in mentioning that one particular detail is that there's far more subtle variables than a simplified model shows or suggests.  And, these details are hardly outliers.  Or insignificant.  You can spend a a few hours with a simulation tool like LTSpice and discover that pretty easily.   (LTSpice is free, BTW.)  Or, you can measure it.  The tests usually performed are probably very accurate, but hardly even close to complete.  

 

 

 

Right. There are indeed many variables (skin effect, proximity effect, crystal structure, dielectric used...) and the possibilities and values can be almost endless... However, we are constrained by the fact of audio frequencies being up to ~20kHz, and that we typically need only <30 feet of the stuff. With that, of the universe of possibilities, how many are truly realistic? Also, modern amps have gone through all these generations with the numbers of pairs of eyes and ears having looked into them and listened to them.

 

Absolutely, we could play with LTSpice and plug in values for inductance and capacitance that result in nasty cables with significant roll-off at audible frequencies, or nasty phase anomalies, oscillation potential... But those are not typical whatsoever, and audiophiles for the most part do not have to fear! I suspect only some of the most "exotic" audiophile speaker cables might encroach into these "danger zones".

 

For measurements, maybe it's not a bad idea to grab 10' of Polk Cobra with 500pF/ft and 0.026uH/ft, send some relatively strong ultrasonic frequencies or square waves to just to make sure there are no issues driving something like a 4-ohm load. Would not be difficult to look for MHz oscillations within the limits of a scope. 

 

Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile.

Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism.

:nomqa: R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

 

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