HOLO Audio MAY DAC

[darioG]

On 3/12/2021 at 1:11 AM, GoldenOne said:

TLDR: 
- May's PLL is incredible, and even optical from my PC outperforms dedicated DDCs by orders of magnitude with it enabled.
- May's internal USB is also absolutely fantastic
- Pi2AES is crazy good for the money, and outperforms the Denafrips Hermes DDC (I imagine having no USB in the chain anywhere is a benefit)

Ok, so I did some measurements of inferred jitter from a few devices using the may. May's own USB/internal DDC (this is the upgraded L2/L3 version), denafrips hermes, pi2aes.

(USB source for all devices was sotm SMS200 Ultra. ADC running on Raspberry pi 4 to avoid any potential windows USB problems)

Lets start with 44.1khz
- Pi2AES wins hands down here. With sidebands (deterministic jitter) only going up to -135dB, vs about -125dB on the hermes.
- Hermes additionally has a considerable amount more random jitter (shown by the 'shelf' which reaches up to -137dB, whereas pi2aes never goes above about -144)


 

Moving to 48khz
- Here its much closer, though pi2aes pulls ahead still. Both devices have deterministic jitter of about -143dB, however the pi2aes' sidebands are constrained much closer to the fundamental, whereas the Hermes has additional sidebands further out.
- I added pi2aes coax for a quick comparison here too. We get slightly poorer inferred jitter via coax than we do with i2s. With small sidebands below -136dB. I2S is definitely the better choice if your DAC supports it.

 

What happens if we turn on the PLL?
- Effectively, any jitter that I can possibly measure gets eradicated. With the may's PLL on, both sources show all jitter down at -150dB and the limiting factor immediately becomes my ADC's own accuracy. With the PLL on, its likely that actual jitter is lower than what is displayed here, but I'd need a state of the art analyzer + notch in order to measure it.
- I even tried the worst source I had (Optical from my PC), which was plagued with jitter, and the PLL just absolutely eradicated it.
- I tested may's USB implementation as well, and we can see that it's pretty excellent, with no clear deterministic jitter, and keeping all random jitter below -140dB. The USB performance did not change when the PLL was turned on or off. This means that May's internal DDC could potentially be considered better than pi2aes/hermes given as without PLL it gets better performance than either of them. However given as with PLL enabled, I2S interfaces beat it, pi2aes, i2s, PLL ON delivers the absolute best performance you could possibly ask for or measure.

I have a Shanti powering the PI2AES and when use I2S to May L2 takes ages to lock and then when it does, doesn't always stay locked? If the PI2AES has not got as much jitter as denafrips dds, why is the May not locking as fast as when May is connect to my ollo USB sig and Shanti? 

[GoldenOne]

1 hour ago, darioG said:

I have a Shanti powering the PI2AES and when use I2S to May L2 takes ages to lock and then when it does, doesn't always stay locked? If the PI2AES has not got as much jitter as denafrips dds, why is the May not locking as fast as when May is connect to my ollo USB sig and Shanti? 

Are you definitely using the correct I2S pinout?

Sounds like there is an issue with the connection, or your PSU is not providing enough power to the pi2aes. What voltage and current rating is the PSU?

For Pi2AES the I2S input on may should be set to "ALT1" layout

 

[darioG]

8 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

Are you definitely using the correct I2S pinout?

Sounds like there is an issue with the connection, or your PSU is not providing enough power to the pi2aes. What voltage and current rating is the PSU?

For Pi2AES the I2S input on may should be set to "ALT1" layout

 

I was using the Alt1 setting.😁 Thanks for confirming setting with pi2aes. The Shanti is 5v 3amp. https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/hifi-power-supply/allo-shanti-dual-regulated-linear-power-supply-5v-3a-5v-1a-p-14009.html. Only using 5v 3amp to 5v pins on pi2aes hat with ropieee basic as roon endpoint. I mentioned in another post that might me the £40 4k hdmi cable 1m in length I have . Waiting for a new silver core. 75cm Revelation Audio Labs hdmi cable, hopedully that will help🤔 

[GoldenOne]

5 hours ago, darioG said:

I was using the Alt1 setting.😁 Thanks for confirming setting with pi2aes. The Shanti is 5v 3amp. https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/hifi-power-supply/allo-shanti-dual-regulated-linear-power-supply-5v-3a-5v-1a-p-14009.html. Only using 5v 3amp to 5v pins on pi2aes hat with ropieee basic as roon endpoint. I mentioned in another post that might me the £40 4k hdmi cable 1m in length I have . Waiting for a new silver core. 75cm Revelation Audio Labs hdmi cable, hopedully that will help🤔 

Yeah the HDMI cable is probably most likely.

I've used a short 0.5ft kabeldirekt cable and an audioquest red river with no issue. 

If not, try re-flashing your pi OS. Sometimes that an be the culprit

[John Hughes]

12 hours ago, darioG said:

Is the SQ of Stack Audio worth the extra £700 with LPS compared to the Allo USB sig, Shanti?, I am only going to use as Roon endpoint, so other features are wasted on Stack Audio!. If not a lot of SQ difference, I will stick with Allo. Unless find Stack and LPS second hand :)

 

If I turn off PLL lock I2s , will the effect be jitter?  Is the PLL just buggy with I2s, don't have issue with usb PLL locking...

So, I started with a standard Rasperry Pi 4 using the Standard Allo recommended firmware (is that called Diet OS?  I can't quite recall).  This was before I was using the May.  Then I got the Allo USBridge Signature with Shanti LPS.  I could definitely hear the difference.  Less noise, wider soundstage, cleaner treble, deeper bass.  I got the May while I was using this setup.  I used Ropieee, as I was having issues with the Diet Os. 

 

Then I got the Stack II (the LPS was a month slower in shipping at that time).  Without the LPS, it was significantly better in the ways I value:  much cleaner, with more open midrange and treble, lower noise floor, just a lot less digital grunge in the sound.   When I got the LPS I was kind of surprised in that the difference was even more than adding in the Link II.  Much deeper soundstage, inky black backgrounds, and BASS.  The bass filled out a lot on the bottom with more texture and a bit more on the low end.  Very clean sound overall too.  Plus the Stack software is very nice, the custom Ropieee implementation update automatically, and I haven't had a problem with it.  It has HQP software installed as an option in the interface as well.  I will also say that the Stack II and the power supply have beautiful, solid, heavy housings, they are much nicer to look at and beautifully engineered.

 

As to jitter without PLL, its really about audible differences, isn't it?  Some here say they've heard a difference with it off.  Tim at Kitsune doesn't believe the difference is audible. I can hear a very small difference in sound without it.  But the difference is very small to me, maybe 1/5 of what you hear between USB cables etc.  So I've accepted using it without.  Sometimes I will run a little listening test with in on and off and I continue to think its too small to matter vs the PLL locking issue.  I will say that I am particularly sensitive to digital noise and hear differences in all aspects of cables, isolation, power filtration, but this particular difference is not significant to me. 

 

I suspect that how bad this kind of jitter affects a DAC may have a lot to do with how clean the source is.  If you are going direct from a PC etc it might be more audible than my setup which has major power filtration. fiber optic ethernet isolation and using an endpoint designed to be low noise. 

[damascato]

Hi all,

 

I just got my Holo May L2, which I'm currently burning-in (I'm at about 150 hours in). Already sounds fantastic.

 

I'm currently streaming Roon via my Allo Digione (SPDIF) which sounds fine. 

What's the best digital connection I can use with the May? AES? i2s? 
 

@GoldenOne in his review says that it has great jitter correction via USB. Does it mean that the USB from a Pi4 would do for a good quality connection?

What's the best solution for a not overly expensive streamer?

 

Thanks!

[John Hughes]

7 minutes ago, damascato said:

What's the best solution for a not overly expensive streamer?

I highly recommend this for the money.  Was a significant upgrade to my Allo USBRidge signature with Shanti power supply.   When you add the LPS for the Stack II it levels up yet again. 

 

https://stackaudio.co.uk/link2/

 

[damascato]

5 minutes ago, John Hughes said:

I highly recommend this for the money.  Was a significant upgrade to my Allo USBRidge signature with Shanti power supply.   When you add the LPS for the Stack II it levels up yet again. 

 

https://stackaudio.co.uk/link2/

 

Thanks mate, I'll have a look if it can be found here in Australia somehow.

[BrownMagic]

4 hours ago, damascato said:

What's the best solution for a not overly expensive streamer?

Check out the Ifi Zen stream that has just been launched. 

[damascato]

54 minutes ago, BrownMagic said:

Check out the Ifi Zen stream that has just been launched. 

This seems like a nice tidy new device at an acceptable price. 
 

From my own experience ifi products are great.

[Extreme_Boky]

How would you connect that thing to May? Coax S\PDIF? 

[damascato]

23 minutes ago, Extreme_Boky said:

How would you connect that thing to May? Coax S\PDIF? 

At this stage Coax from my Allo Digione. 
 

But I’m looking for a better connection and a better streamer without spending $2k

[darioG]

On 6/28/2021 at 11:22 PM, John Hughes said:

So, I started with a standard Rasperry Pi 4 using the Standard Allo recommended firmware (is that called Diet OS?  I can't quite recall).  This was before I was using the May.  Then I got the Allo USBridge Signature with Shanti LPS.  I could definitely hear the difference.  Less noise, wider soundstage, cleaner treble, deeper bass.  I got the May while I was using this setup.  I used Ropieee, as I was having issues with the Diet Os. 

 

Then I got the Stack II (the LPS was a month slower in shipping at that time).  Without the LPS, it was significantly better in the ways I value:  much cleaner, with more open midrange and treble, lower noise floor, just a lot less digital grunge in the sound.   When I got the LPS I was kind of surprised in that the difference was even more than adding in the Link II.  Much deeper soundstage, inky black backgrounds, and BASS.  The bass filled out a lot on the bottom with more texture and a bit more on the low end.  Very clean sound overall too.  Plus the Stack software is very nice, the custom Ropieee implementation update automatically, and I haven't had a problem with it.  It has HQP software installed as an option in the interface as well.  I will also say that the Stack II and the power supply have beautiful, solid, heavy housings, they are much nicer to look at and beautifully engineered.

 

As to jitter without PLL, its really about audible differences, isn't it?  Some here say they've heard a difference with it off.  Tim at Kitsune doesn't believe the difference is audible. I can hear a very small difference in sound without it.  But the difference is very small to me, maybe 1/5 of what you hear between USB cables etc.  So I've accepted using it without.  Sometimes I will run a little listening test with in on and off and I continue to think its too small to matter vs the PLL locking issue.  I will say that I am particularly sensitive to digital noise and hear differences in all aspects of cables, isolation, power filtration, but this particular difference is not significant to me. 

 

I suspect that how bad this kind of jitter affects a DAC may have a lot to do with how clean the source is.  If you are going direct from a PC etc it might be more audible than my setup which has major power filtration. fiber optic ethernet isolation and using an endpoint designed to be low noise. 

Hi

 

I went and ordered the Stack Audio 11 plus & LPS. They offer a 30 day money back returns policy on product. I did see on review Han did of the stack 1 Stack Audio Link streamer and network bridge - YouTube Hans reported that the upgraded LPS didn't make a difference to the sound.  I will compare for myself and let you know if I hear any difference on Stack 11.  I will keep hold of the Allo usb sig for now,  judging the differences you heard, I don't think will be going back.  Thank you for the info.  Daz

[Lightwave]

15 hours ago, damascato said:

What's the best digital connection I can use with the May? AES? i2s? 
 

@GoldenOne in his review says that it has great jitter correction via USB. Does it mean that the USB from a Pi4 would do for a good quality connection?

What's the best solution for a not overly expensive streamer?

Yes the May has a fanatical USB connection. So far I haven’t had any jitter issue. I’m running Roon. So I just use a cheap RasPi4b running ropieee. 

[John Hughes]

13 hours ago, darioG said:

Hi

 

I went and ordered the Stack Audio 11 plus & LPS. They offer a 30 day money back returns policy on product. I did see on review Han did of the stack 1 Stack Audio Link streamer and network bridge - YouTube Hans reported that the upgraded LPS didn't make a difference to the sound.  I will compare for myself and let you know if I hear any difference on Stack 11.  I will keep hold of the Allo usb sig for now,  judging the differences you heard, I don't think will be going back.  Thank you for the info.  Daz

Nice!  I did hear a big difference, just goes to show how different people's ears and systems are.    Let us know what you think. Also, post in the Polestar area about streamers your experience.  I need to add an entry there too.

 

 

[Extreme_Boky]

14 hours ago, darioG said:

Hi

 

I went and ordered the Stack Audio 11 plus & LPS. They offer a 30 day money back returns policy on product. I did see on review Han did of the stack 1 Stack Audio Link streamer and network bridge - YouTube Hans reported that the upgraded LPS didn't make a difference to the sound.  I will compare for myself and let you know if I hear any difference on Stack 11.  I will keep hold of the Allo usb sig for now,  judging the differences you heard, I don't think will be going back.  Thank you for the info.  Daz

So, my question remains: how are you going to connect that streamer to May DAC? Using USB? Will that work? 

 

My assumptions (and the reasons why I'm asking these questions) are:

1. May DAC USB interface requires a specific driver that will govern data exchange between the source (streamer) and May's USB input interface (internal XMOS card)
2. I do not believe this driver can be installed on that streamer "motherboard"

 

 

 

 

[GoldenOne]

Just now, Extreme_Boky said:

So, my question remains: how are you going to connect that streamer to May DAC? Using USB? Will that work? 

 

My assumptions (and the reasons why I'm asking these questions) are:

1. May DAC USB interface requires a specific driver that will govern data exchange between the source (streamer) and May's USB input interface (internal XMOS card)
2. I do not believe this driver can be installed on that streamer "motherboard"

 

 

 

 

You don't need a proprietary driver for the May. It will work fine with any USB streamer.

You need the proprietary driver for windows ASIO. But other than that you can use WASAPI or linux ALSA plug and play

[Extreme_Boky]

5 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

You don't need a proprietary driver for the May. It will work fine with any USB streamer.

You need the proprietary driver for windows ASIO. But other than that you can use WASAPI or linux ALSA plug and play

Thank you for your answer.

 

I thought that, without the driver, the streaming options will be severely limited... to something like 192kHz.. or maybe even worse - to 48kHz only?

[John Hughes]

22 minutes ago, Extreme_Boky said:

Thank you for your answer.

 

I thought that, without the driver, the streaming options will be severely limited... to something like 192kHz.. or maybe even worse - to 48kHz only?

I use this streamer with the May.  It is custom hardware with a software implementation of RopieeeXL.  I connects to the May up to 1.5Mhz PCM and 1024X DSD without problems.  No drivers necessary.

[GoldenOne]

19 minutes ago, Extreme_Boky said:

Thank you for your answer.

 

I thought that, without the driver, the streaming options will be severely limited... to something like 192kHz.. or maybe even worse - to 48kHz only?

On Windows it will work up to 768khz without a driver
And on Linux it will work up to 1.536mhz without a driver (though some linux distros may only do 768khz)

[Extreme_Boky]

Thank you fellas, much appreciated.

[damascato]

Hey guys, are you experiencing, as well, annoyingly long “locking” times?

 

My sorcery is an Allo Digione connected via SPDIF.

[Toni-Mang]

äh yes, DDCs and Pll...(DI20HE) i have to turn my records after 20min as well...

 

[madfonzy]

On 7/3/2021 at 2:17 PM, damascato said:

Hey guys, are you experiencing, as well, annoyingly long “locking” times?

 

My sorcery is an Allo Digione connected via SPDIF.

Hey mate just get a RPi4, load Ropieee and connect via USB.  This will be you cheapest option.  This is what I have been running with Roon and KTE with no locking delay issues.

[Extreme_Boky]

On 6/17/2021 at 1:39 AM, TA75 said:

.... Also for whatever reason, my remote never worked. Anyone else experience this?

 

My remote was driving me nuts. Sometimes it will work without any issue, but most of the time it just wouldn't do anything for the first 10 - 30 minutes, and then it will start to work on its own... After a lot of experimenting, I realised that the remote uses two button batteries connected in parallel without any "OR-ing" to avoid issues where one battery has a higher voltage (which is always the case). So, I removed one battery and - bingo. The remote has never skipped a beat since then. 

 

I am trying to contemplate the reason for connecting two batteries in parallel... but I can not see it. Maybe to avoid replacing them (by ensuring the total current consumed is shared between 2 batteries... but, the current consumption is already negligible - one battery will do fine for many years)... Don't know.... I do know that the way they are implemented (parallel connection without any "controlling" device, like at least a series' diode...) will cause a current flow from one with a higher potential ->  until equilibrium is achieved. I'm thinking that this very low current flow disturbs the circuitry in some way.

 

Hopefully, this little mod will help you fix your remote as well.