HOLO Audio MAY DAC

[MichaelHiFi]

Sorry folks, I have to say that last night listening was simply amazing. I did one further tweak adding a Synergistic fuse to my integrated. Fancy fuse or no fancy fuse, after one song for 15 minutes I was laughing so hard, my wife and 10 year old thought I had lost it. They sat down and it was game on.

 

Jack Johnson - Rodeo Clowns; Music was coming at me in ways I thought not possible. My setting was NOS but when I switch to OS I get a tighter more focused image. I left it at NOS. This song set about my hysterical laughter. My 10 year took control and queued up The Stones - Ruby Tuesday. A very good choice as often times folks get focused on reference recordings and forget about some good old yesteryear tunes. It was the same familiar song, not altered to the point of changed, a good sign, and we were all singing Ruby Tuesday, immersed in the melody while still being aware of an idea of being in the studio. Jr then queued Coldplay's Paradise. The sheer size of this recording was astonishing. Not a reference recording by any means but the May sort of forced reference on you. Death Cab for Cutie - Title and Registration. I love this song but last night it was a new connection emotionally. There's much more information and bandwidth but the May does not detract from the emotional connection to the song. I thought then, lets really challenge the May. U2. 

 

It was 1983, I'm driving back from a ski trip with a carload full of friends. A song came on the radio, After about 15 seconds I told everyone to be quiet and listen to this song. I didn't know who it was but I caught the words 'New Years day'. Took my 6 months to discover what group played that song. Last night I queued up that song. It wasn't right. It was a typical flat sounding U2 recording but a brilliant song. I switched the May to DSD and that turned that crappy recording into magic. I've been finding it interesting that the I actually use the various filters on the May, not just focused on one. My wife likes OS, Jr likes NOS because he often points out sounds coming from well outside the speakers. Jr can really get into it when he's feeling it as seen in this video.

 

I've been going Dac to amplifiers for years, up until I bought the Kinki Studio M1+, a relatively modest outlay of cash. I wanted the Luxman 900 series amp, preamp but for $3K and the ability to roll opamps I said WTF. It's popular and I can easily sell it. Not anytime soon. I've built countless systems over the 55 years and I'm not done yet. I am holding the May DAC in high esteem, maybe best audio purchase ever. And now I need to get acquainted with HQP, its settings and is it possible to extract more goodness from the May?

 

 

[Miska]

7 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

If I upsample 44.1kHz to 88.2kHz, will the Nyquist frequency be raised from 22.05kHz to 44.1kHz?

 

Yes, instead of images starting from 22.05 kHz, they will now start from 88.2 - 22.05 = 66.15 kHz. So you have inverse frequency spectrum from 66.15 to 88.2 kHz. And forward frequency spectrum from 88.2 to 110.25 kHz. And the same repeats around every multiple of 88.2 kHz.

 

8 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

The anti-aliasing low-pass filter can then be less steep?

 

The analog one yes. For proper reconstruction of 16-bit source, the analog filter needs to attenuate images by at least 96 dB. For 24-bit source, the analog filter needs to attenuate images by at least 144 dB. First order filter would be 6 dB/oct, second order filter 12 dB/oct, etc.

 

8 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

And the original analog waveform can be reconstructed better?

 

Yes. In addition, you also need to pay attention to phase shifts the analog filter causes. So you'd generally prefer to have it's -3 dB point around 100 kHz or higher to minimize amount of phase shifts it causes < 20 kHz.

 

8 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

Or are there other reasons for oversampling?

 

It allows to use noise shaping for the output, which for example with the Holo converter allows drastically improving low level linearity and remove distortion of low level tones and lower distortion of higher level tones.

 

In addition, apodizing filters allow fixing errors in the source content.

 

This is still when sticking to PCM / R2R domain. If we go to SDM (DSD) then it's gets into modulators, different kinds of conversion architectures and such (more flexibility). Although with PCM too you can get into details of different noise shapers and such. So it is not black and white.

 

[John Hughes]

So I've finally installed HQPlayer and am playing with it.  I've transferred my parametric EQ settings from Roon to the Pipeline setup using a txt file.  Doesn't sound the same, but I'll work with that more later.  

 

I have been able to get PCM output to 768Khz  and DSD output to 512.  When I go above 768Khz, I get garbage coming out.  What's the settings that you guys are using to get 1.5M output?  I've got a powerful PC.

[Holzohr]

4 hours ago, John Hughes said:

I have been able to get PCM output to 768Khz  and DSD output to 512.  When I go above 768Khz, I get garbage coming out.  What's the settings that you guys are using to get 1.5M output?  I've got a powerful PC.

 

Did you change the firmware from version 30.14 to 30.12? And then there was something about that Intel USB ports are prefered.

[Quadman]

9 hours ago, John Hughes said:

What's the settings that you guys are using to get 1.5M output?

In the holo driver control panel, about, you can see what firmware version you have installed.  It needs to be 30.12 to get 1.5Mhz or DSD1024.  In the downloads off the kitsune site there is a text document giving brief instructions on how to update firmware and a package for firmware 30.12.

[John Hughes]

I am not using my Windows PC directly, I am using a Stack Audio Link II Ropieee endpoint.  My May says its running V1.20.  Do I still need to update firmware?

[lpost]

Yes, they ship with 30.14 and you need 30.12 to enable 1.4/1.5MHz PCM or DSD1024. However, I doubt the Stack Audio Link II has an Intel/Aletra USB controller. It could just unlikely.

 

Only way to know is try it. You will need a Windows PC or VM running to update the firmware. It takes about 20 secs. once you've mastered the interface of the updater tool.

[John Hughes]

Ok, I updated my May to 30.14.  And through my Stack Link II Ropieee Roon endpoint I am now getting 1.5M.  Before I updated I only got up to 1024M.  So it worked.  I am sure this highly modified Raspberry Pi does not have Intel chipsets though!

[lpost]

30.12 is the one you want. Perhaps you mistyped. Apparently, some RPi4 will do 1.5MHz and other won't. Probably different revisions or memory capacity.

 

Enjoy.

[dkdali]

Hello all

I just signed up but have been following the tread for months. Your experienced with the May dac has been part of the reason I had to have one.

Last night Magna just confirmed my KTE was ready to ship and I cant wait to get it in my system. It will be replacing my RME ADI-2 DAC FS which is a good dac but sounds a bit to harch with my STAX SR-009.

Reading your experiences with hqplayer it got me thinking if my Innuos Zenith mk3 (steaming from a ROON ROCK server) would be outclassed by a good hqplayer PC upsampling to 1.5MHz or DSD1024... Anybody who has compared the Zenith with hqplayer running on a PC?

[lpost]

Not a Zenith but I've gone from a Pink Faun 2.16 to a 2017 Dell PC to a Intel Atom

 

(https://up-shop.org/up-gateway-atom-x5-z8350-w-4g-memory-32g-emmc-board-w-vesa-plate.html)

 

also available at Mouser. https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/AAEON-UP/UP-GWS01-A20-1432-A11?qs=%2Fha2pyFaduiqPaKHsTvEIjDEYu4O6sHmLjD52%2BUzjidN3XUuBDi9QCRZsVSwAsJS

 

I only had the motherboard USB ports on the Pink Faun (no fancy USB PCI-e board to try) and they were limited to 768 but didn't sound any better or worse than the PC...so much the same I sold the Pink Faun. Yesterday, I received the Intel Atom device powered by a decent smps and it's just a touch smoother/nicer/better than the Dell PC. To me it's the perfect HQP NAA endpoint to pair with the May.

 

Hope this helps while you wait for May delivery. It's well worth the wait!

 

It does 1.5MHz PCM without issue. Keep in mind, in each setup I have HQPe running on yet another PC as well as Roon Server also on it's own PC. I've only changed the NAA endpoint. I would focus on a good NAA endpoint and NOT have HQP PC connected via USB to dac. The network brings with it isolation.

 

 

[dkdali]

12 hours ago, lpost said:

Not a Zenith but I've gone from a Pink Faun 2.16 to a 2017 Dell PC to a Intel Atom

 

(https://up-shop.org/up-gateway-atom-x5-z8350-w-4g-memory-32g-emmc-board-w-vesa-plate.html)

 

also available at Mouser. https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/AAEON-UP/UP-GWS01-A20-1432-A11?qs=%2Fha2pyFaduiqPaKHsTvEIjDEYu4O6sHmLjD52%2BUzjidN3XUuBDi9QCRZsVSwAsJS

 

I only had the motherboard USB ports on the Pink Faun (no fancy USB PCI-e board to try) and they were limited to 768 but didn't sound any better or worse than the PC...so much the same I sold the Pink Faun. Yesterday, I received the Intel Atom device powered by a decent smps and it's just a touch smoother/nicer/better than the Dell PC. To me it's the perfect HQP NAA endpoint to pair with the May.

 

Hope this helps while you wait for May delivery. It's well worth the wait!

 

It does 1.5MHz PCM without issue. Keep in mind, in each setup I have HQPe running on yet another PC as well as Roon Server also on it's own PC. I've only changed the NAA endpoint. I would focus on a good NAA endpoint and NOT have HQP PC connected via USB to dac. The network brings with it isolation.

 

 

Thanks for the input lpost

So you would have a Roon server streaming to a hqplayer PC/server steaming to a NAA endpoint - is that correctly understood?

Since the Innuos is basically a purpose build PC I wonder if it could run as a NAA endpoint? The Innuos clearly outperforms a PC as a Roon endpoint so I would assume the same would be the case if it could work as a NAA endpoint. I have tried to Google it but haven't found any official support or HowTo. Does anybody have any experience with this or the performance of Innuos products in combination with the May dac?

 

[MichaelHiFi]

I've got my music server up and running and have been playing around inside HQPlayer settings. I'm using 20bit and 1.536M and my modulator is AMSDM7EC 512+sf, dirther is TPDF and I honestly don't remember why I used that setting.

 

God Bless you all for figuring out the multitude of combinations of settings. My feet are still getting wet. 

 

Inside of Roon I only had HQPlayer enabled. I then enabled Holoaudio Spring 2 DAC KTE level 3. I thought I would no longer  see 1.536m but it was still there. I then realized that both HQP and the aforementioned Spring DAC was enabled. Do they or can they work together? I thought Roon took over when a Roon output was chosen.

 

 

[lpost]

4 hours ago, dkdali said:

Thanks for the input lpost

So you would have a Roon server streaming to a hqplayer PC/server steaming to a NAA endpoint - is that correctly understood?

 

Yes, precisely.

[lpost]

13 minutes ago, MichaelHiFi said:

Do they or can they work together? I thought Roon took over when a Roon output was chosen.

They don't work together, they both should show as a zone in Roon. Choose one or the other to play. Sounds like you have a single PC with Roon and HQP connected via USB to the dac? This will certainly work but I think it's not ideal. A NAA device of low power/noise should buffer the Roon/HQP PC and the dac.

[MichaelHiFi]

Yes I do, both programs operating inside my Sigao music server. I still don't understand the relationship between having the HQP and Roon selected as output devices.

 

But as you mentioned, having programs run separately from 2 different servers may be ideal. I have a Small Green Computer Linux box collecting dust. I'll use that for the Roon core, which was its old job, and it least it is coupled with a very nice LPS.

 

I wouldn't say the changes I made yesterday, moving OS to a PCIe SSD on MB and AudioOptimizer was a step forward. Seem to have lost soundstage depth but really hadn't had the time to evaluate my system as I had to decide, rather urgently, on a home theatre speaker system. Walls are framed, electrical going in which means cutouts for speakers and speaker cables, HDMI, CATxx and fiber need to be run.

Thanks for your insight.

[lpost]

I would stick with USB boot and remove the SSD from the system unless you want to keep Roon there I suppose. It can only make noise. I've never found much value in the AO or Fidelizer-type stuff. I do own Fidelizer but have never tried AO.

 

I just disable any services I know I don't need and call it good or use a purpose built OS like HQPe OS and NAA.

 

I'm trying Euphony hosting NAA now. I've found it won't do 1.5Mhz though, only 768khz. Sounds good though. Will switch back to NAA OS and compare before committing to purchase.

[lpost]

After a couple hours with Euphony hosting NAA at 768khz (max rate), I switched back to bootable NAA OS running at 1.5Mhz. Yeah, I don't hear any difference that would cause me to pay for Euphony. Both sound equally fantastic and the same.

 

I try it again in a week or so to eliminate the variable of 'how I feel today'. It's quick and easy to switch so no reason not to and maybe I'll be surprised.

[John Hughes]

In HQP, ow many Dac bits  should be set for the Holo May?  The default?

 

[scintilla]

20 bits and dither with your choice. Jussi has suggested triangular (tpdf).  I would try them all and see if one seems to be a winner.

[lpost]

I prefer LSN15 but the differences are subtle. I think the noise is pushed out so far with either and the sample rate is doesn't make much difference...just that one is used.

[Miska]

Using noise shaper like LNS15 (or NS9 or NS5) at high rates like 705.6/768k or 1.4112/1.536M allows you to have way over 20-bit worth of dynamic range in audio band.

 

Even if you need to settle with 16-bit output, like on macOS to reach 1.5M rates, noise shapers allow you to have more digital SNR than the DAC's analog performance allows. IOW, digital noise floor is way below the analog one.

 

In addition, they further linearize the DAC's conversion process, thanks to the analog filters in the DAC output stage.

 

[scintilla]

I was looking for whatever thread it was in, because there are so many across so many sites, that you posted some nice pics of how driving the PCM into the Spring/May resistor network this way (20-bit, noise-shaped, high-rate) really cleans up the low-level performance and takes advantage of the inherently low noise of the design. I will be curious to see what the limits of the May design will be fed DSD at the speculative 1024 and 2048x once we have hardware to produce the signals with the best modulators.  Like with the AKM4499, which seems to prefer 256x over 512 (but who knows what they use on-chip for resistors, are they switched capacitors or current sources to save space...), there is probably a sweet spot for driving the May in PCM and DSD as well; that spot that produces the cleanest floor and lowest IMD, etc. You have to be tempted to buy one by now...

[Miska]

17 minutes ago, scintilla said:

I was looking for whatever thread it was in, because there are so many across so many sites, that you posted some nice pics of how driving the PCM into the Spring/May resistor network this way (20-bit, noise-shaped, high-rate) really cleans up the low-level performance and takes advantage of the inherently low noise of the design. I will be curious to see what the limits of the May design will be fed DSD at the speculative 1024 and 2048x once we have hardware to produce the signals with the best modulators.  Like with the AKM4499, which seems to prefer 256x over 512 (but who knows what they use on-chip for resistors, are they switched capacitors or current sources to save space...), there is probably a sweet spot for driving the May in PCM and DSD as well; that spot that produces the cleanest floor and lowest IMD, etc. You have to be tempted to buy one by now...

 

At the moment May is too expensive for my current R&D budget for buying DACs. The tunings for Spring 2 also match May the same way though. May is just otherwise better. I hope I can obtain a Spring 3 though when such arrives.

 

From testing point of view, DSD1024 with best modulators is not a problem since I can process the test signal conversions offline with HQPlayer Pro.

 

In DSD mode, DSD256 is sweet spot for Spring 2. In PCM mode, the 1.4112/1.536M 20-bit is sweet spot. For May, I would need to have the device to measure if it is the same, but I'd say it likely is.

 

 

AKM chips have traditionally been switched capacitor. Same for Cirrus Logic.

 

[barrows]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

AKM chips have traditionally been switched capacitor. Same for Cirrus Logic.

This is where the AKM 4499 is different, it is a switched resistor DAC with current output, unlike previous AKM chips which are switched capacitor and have voltage output.