Miska Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 45 minutes ago, Lightwave said: @Miska Thank you for your help! A couple more questions if you don't mind. What's the difference between 32k x512, 44.1k x512 and 48k x512 bit rate limit? My guess is that if I use 48k x512 as the bit rate limit, 44.1k PCM source should be resampled to 44.k x512 DSD, right? So, for the May DAC, I should set it to 48k x512 (or 48k x256 if I want a lower bit rate)? If you want DSD256 output, set rate limit to 48k x256. For May you can also enable 48k DSD. With default settings with adaptive output rate grayed, for the filters that can, you'd get 48k x256 output also for 44.1k sources and for filters that can't you'd get 44.1k x256 output. You can make output rate follow input rate by checking the adaptive output rate. Since it is possible to use it with May. 51 minutes ago, Lightwave said: Since DSD has half output level, should I set the Vol Min to -6db and Vol Max to -3db? I'm connecting the Mac to a pre-amp. (Not directly to a power amp like many do.) It is unrelated, the half output level only affects your preamp volume setting if you want to compare PCM vs DSD outputs, you'd need to turn up volume for DSD mode. You can use for example that range, and check that you have volume control initially set to -3 dBFS. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Lightwave Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 This may or may not be a May DAC related issue. My apology if this is specific to the HQPlayer NAA. @Miska Does HQPlayer NAA only support PCM? I have one Mac running HQPlayer Desktop and the other running networkaudiod NAA, but all DSD got converted to PCM before streaming to the NAA node. It seems like that HQPlayer Desktop only see the networkaudiod node as a PCM device. And the console output of networkaudiod seems to suggest that CoreAudio can only see the May DAC as a PCM device. Will a Rasperry Pi running Linux with a proper USB driver be able to see the May DAC as DSD device? Link to comment
Miska Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 10 minutes ago, Lightwave said: This may or may not be a May DAC related issue. My apology if this is specific to the HQPlayer NAA. @Miska Does HQPlayer NAA only support PCM? I have one Mac running HQPlayer Desktop and the other running networkaudiod NAA, but all DSD got converted to PCM before streaming to the NAA node. It seems like that HQPlayer Desktop only see the networkaudiod node as a PCM device. And the console output of networkaudiod seems to suggest that CoreAudio can only see the May DAC as a PCM device. Will a Rasperry Pi running Linux with a proper USB driver be able to see the May DAC as DSD device? That should work since you have DoP enabled. On macOS there's only PCM interface between the OS and DAC because CoreAudio doesn't support DSD. On your NAA Mac, make sure the May is NOT selected as default audio output device for the OS or any other running application. Do you have some specific reason to use such a NAA here instead of direct USB connection? Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Lightwave Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 50 minutes ago, Miska said: Do you have some specific reason to use such a NAA here instead of direct USB connection? Well... everyone said it sounds better if the processing of resample happens on a computer that's far far away from the DAC (which kind of make sense intuitively to me). Another reason is that I want to run the resampling on a more powerful Mac that I also use as my work computer and so it can't be tethered to the DAC. Another I observed is that the bit depth set to 16-bit when streamed to the NAA. Is this a CoreAudio issue? I've set the bit to 20 but it still got converted down to 16-bit when streaming to NAA. Link to comment
Miska Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 43 minutes ago, Lightwave said: Another I observed is that the bit depth set to 16-bit when streamed to the NAA. Is this a CoreAudio issue? I've set the bit to 20 but it still got converted down to 16-bit when streaming to NAA. Ahh, yeah, could be that CoreAudio driver has changed a little if you have Big Sur. That would explain why DoP is not working, it needs 24-bit (DAC Bits set to 20 doesn't affect this). Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Lightwave Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 4 minutes ago, Miska said: Ahh, yeah, could be that CoreAudio driver has changed a little if you have Big Sur. That would explain why DoP is not working, it needs 24-bit (DAC Bits set to 20 doesn't affect this). The Mac running networkaudiod NAA is Catalina, not Big Sur. The Mac running HQPlayer Desktop is Big Sur. If I get a Sonore microRendu or Raspberry Pi 4 as NAA, would I get the 16-bit problem? Link to comment
Miska Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 10 minutes ago, Lightwave said: The Mac running networkaudiod NAA is Catalina, not Big Sur. The Mac running HQPlayer Desktop is Big Sur. If I get a Sonore microRendu or Raspberry Pi 4 as NAA, would I get the 16-bit problem? You can try with RasPi4 NAA for starters, it is pretty inexpensive and you can boot my OS image on so it is very straightforward to setup. You just write the image on microSD and boot it up. Unless this is some USB firmware feature in your device... But in order to enable full capabilities of May, you need Intel based NAA. Assuming it has the USB firmware allowing 1.5M PCM and DSD1024. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Lightwave Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 8 minutes ago, Miska said: You can try with RasPi4 NAA for starters, it is pretty inexpensive and you can boot my OS image on so it is very straightforward to setup. You just write the image on microSD and boot it up. Unless this is some USB firmware feature in your device... But in order to enable full capabilities of May, you need Intel based NAA. Assuming it has the USB firmware allowing 1.5M PCM and DSD1024. Do you have a list of known RasPi4 NAA that are known to work with the full capabilities of May? Not sure how to go about finding out if the USB firmware on a RasPi4 is compatible. Link to comment
Miska Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 2 hours ago, Lightwave said: Do you have a list of known RasPi4 NAA that are known to work with the full capabilities of May? It won't... Should work up to 705.6/768k PCM and DSD512 though. There's not much to list, there are only couple of different memory configurations of RasPi4 hardware. (2, 4 and 8 GB). 4 GB is well enough for NAA use. 2 hours ago, Lightwave said: Not sure how to go about finding out if the USB firmware on a RasPi4 is compatible. No, I mean May's USB firmware. Trying it out will tell. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
MichaelHiFi Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 I finally received an email from Tim. So to be honest, from what I understand, the 5 volts is needed for the handshake. I guess that answers my question. Bill (grannyring) is building me a cable (double smoked) for the May. Now I need a server, or what I really want to do is build a server. Link to comment
Extreme_Boky Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 That's what I expected, thanks for confirming. Once the handshake is done, the +5V is not required any more and it can be disconnected. Link to comment
mrkoven Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 What's the best way to set up HQP with an Innuos server? Is it possible to retain the Innuos as Roon core and player while outsourcing the HQP processing to a more powerful processor? In other words can the Innuos roon core point to HQP elsewhere, but still output to the DAC as a player via USB? Or does the HQP host need to connect directly into the DAC? Link to comment
lpost Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 On 2/15/2021 at 6:33 PM, Extreme_Boky said: Once the handshake is done, the +5V is not required any more and it can be disconnected. Here's what Tim said in reply to my question about the 5V line. 'USB port needs 5V for handshake. So I just say these is zero advantage to make a cable without this 5V connection. Our usb module is isolated and does not use the 5V for anything other than the handshake. It’s self powered and ultra low noise voltage regulators. No worries. Hope you don’t bother with the usb non standard cable as it will only create issues with connections snd give no other advantages' Diavolo 1 Link to comment
Miska Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 2 hours ago, mrkoven said: What's the best way to set up HQP with an Innuos server? Is it possible to retain the Innuos as Roon core and player while outsourcing the HQP processing to a more powerful processor? In other words can the Innuos roon core point to HQP elsewhere, but still output to the DAC as a player via USB? Or does the HQP host need to connect directly into the DAC? Yes, you can split Roon Core and HQPlayer such way. Sometimes it is beneficial to do so. With HQPlayer, DAC is accessed by HQPlayer, not anymore seen by Roon. It can be connected either to HQPlayer host, or to HQPlayer NAA network endpoint. If the Innuos server can run the NAA software module, the DAC can remain connected to it. mrkoven 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
mrkoven Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 25 minutes ago, Miska said: Yes, you can split Roon Core and HQPlayer such way. Sometimes it is beneficial to do so. With HQPlayer, DAC is accessed by HQPlayer, not anymore seen by Roon. It can be connected either to HQPlayer host, or to HQPlayer NAA network endpoint. If the Innuos server can run the NAA software module, the DAC can remain connected to it. Thanks for that clarification very helpful. Link to comment
Extreme_Boky Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 2 hours ago, lpost said: Here's what Tim said in reply to my question about the 5V line. 'USB port needs 5V for handshake. So I just say these is zero advantage to make a cable without this 5V connection. Our usb module is isolated and does not use the 5V for anything other than the handshake. It’s self powered and ultra low noise voltage regulators. No worries. Hope you don’t bother with the usb non standard cable as it will only create issues with connections snd give no other advantages' Yes, I understand the above, thanks. The question is: do you believe that the 5V rail sitting in parallel with + and - USB data can influence USB data transfer in any way, or it can not... I like to disable the 5V DC coming out of the laptop, once the handshake is done.... even though the USB interface inside the May DAC has its own low voltage regulator(s). It's not what the laptop +5V DC does to the USB interface inside the May DAC; it's what it could potentially do to + and - USB data integrity (especially at those high transfer rates when oversampling; DSD256 for example)... along the full run of the USB cable. This is taking it to the Exterme... it doesn't have to be done, of course. Now, few of you may say: "+5V DC coming from the laptop can not do too much harm because there's no current running along that 5V DC wire, once the handshake is done!" ....but, without knowing the exact schematics and what type of IC's are involved during that hand-shake, I decide to turn OFF the 5V DC coming from the laptop once it's not needed any more. Link to comment
barrows Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 25 minutes ago, Extreme_Boky said: The question is: do you believe that the 5V rail sitting in parallel with + and - USB data can influence USB data transfer in any way, or it can not... I like to disable the 5V DC coming out of the laptop, once the handshake is done.... even though the USB interface inside the May DAC has its own low voltage regulator(s). If there is no current being drawn by the DAC on the 5 VDC USB power, it should not have any possibility of "disrupting" the data lints anyway. Also, if one uses a really good USB source, one should not have nay concerns RE a DAC which does use the USB power. As long as thta power is clean (as it should be with a good USB source) then there are no worries. In fact, when a DAC uses the USB power to power its USB receiver section, it improves the isolation possible between the critical DAC circuitry and the USB receiver. SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
lpost Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 On 2/15/2021 at 9:27 AM, Miska said: Ahh, yeah, could be that CoreAudio driver has changed a little if you have Big Sur. That would explain why DoP is not working, it needs 24-bit (DAC Bits set to 20 doesn't affect this). Hi Jussi @Miska When John Atkinson measured the Holo May DAC he stated: An increase in bit depth from 16 to 24, with dithered data representing a 1kHz tone at –90dBFS, dropped the May's noise floor by 38dB (fig.10). This implies a resolution of more than 22 bits, which is the highest I have encountered, even exceeding that of the 21-bit resolution Weiss DAC502. Reference: https://www.stereophile.com/content/holoaudio-may-level-3-da-processor-measurements Based on this should we still set DAC bits to 20 or should it be set to 21 or 22 or 23? Link to comment
Popular Post Miska Posted February 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 18, 2021 6 hours ago, lpost said: Based on this should we still set DAC bits to 20 or should it be set to 21 or 22 or 23? 20... You can actually see that from their linearity sweep measurement Fig 11, where the linearity begins to deviate at -120 dB which is equal to 20 bits: Setting DAC Bits to 20 won't affect noise floor when combined with LNS15, NS9 or NS5 noise shaper and high (>= 352.8k) sampling rates. This linearizes the D/A conversion removing distortion in low level signals while maintaining same noise floor. Note that Stereophile measurements are with flat TPDF dither, not with upsampling combined with noise shapers. You can even set DAC Bits to 16 when using the highest sampling rates and still the noise floor won't change as long as you use suitable noise shaper. In fact, setting DAC Bits to 20 and using for example LNS15 shaper at higher rates, digital noise floor at audio band is lower than it would be with DAC Bits set to 24 and TPDF dither, and without distortions. This is whole point of noise shapers; allows you to use linear region of the DAC while keeping or improving the dynamic range. But for the magic to happen you need higher sampling rates, noise shaper, and then the DAC's analog reconstruction filter does the rest. Here is example from Spring 2 (these were measured before LNS15 existed)... 1 kHz tone at -120 dBFS, with DAC Bits set to 24 (at 1.4112M sampling rate): Here with DAC Bits set to 20 and NS5 noise shaper at 1.4112M sampling rate: Here again the same, but DAC Bits set to 16, NS9 noise shaper, 1.4112M sampling rate, very little noise floor increase at 90 kHz: With NS5 shaper and DAC Bits set to 16, at 1.4112M sampling rate, you would begin to see noise floor increase above 60 kHz. So if you'd drop the sampling rate to 705.6k instead, the noise floor rise with 16 bits and this relaxed noise shaper, the noise floor rise would begin at 30 kHz instead - still above audio band. With DAC Bits set to 20 and NS9 shaper, at 705.6k sampling rate, you still have flat, unchanged noise floor. lpost, Extreme_Boky, Holzohr and 3 others 5 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Extreme_Boky Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Those NS5 and NS9 noise shapers at 1.4112M sampling rate and 20 bit-depth look absolutely unbelievable. Thank you for posting the plots, you are a gentlemen 😇 Regards, Nick Link to comment
MichaelHiFi Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 15 hours ago, barrows said: If there is no current being drawn by the DAC on the 5 VDC USB power, it should not have any possibility of "disrupting" the data lints anyway. Also, if one uses a really good USB source, one should not have nay concerns RE a DAC which does use the USB power. As long as thta power is clean (as it should be with a good USB source) then there are no worries. In fact, when a DAC uses the USB power to power its USB receiver section, it improves the isolation possible between the critical DAC circuitry and the USB receiver. I guess that means I didn't and even perhaps shouldn't have had the USB cable being constructed for me to have USB power on it. It was a question I asked Tim but never received an answer. Maybe it really doesn't matter if USB is isolated in the DAC anyway. I wonder then when I build my music server, if adding the JCAT USB PCI card isn't a waste of money? Link to comment
barrows Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 8 minutes ago, MichaelHiFi said: I guess that means I didn't and even perhaps shouldn't have had the USB cable being constructed for me to have USB power on it. It was a question I asked Tim but never received an answer. Maybe it really doesn't matter if USB is isolated in the DAC anyway. I wonder then when I build my music server, if adding the JCAT USB PCI card isn't a waste of money? I have no comment on the JCat USB card as I prefer to isolate the server in another room of the home and send the data to the audio system over optical Ethernet using HQPe-NAA protocols. SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
lpost Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Thank you for the info and graphs. Much appreciated. How about if my I2S output is limited to PCM192, with NS9. How unfavorable would the noise be at 20 bits? I prefer simple HDMI cable vs. USB 'stuff' but I will try both to see if either is audibly different. I expect not. I don't yet have the DAC to test, waiting for delivery. Link to comment
Diavolo Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 23 minutes ago, MichaelHiFi said: I guess that means I didn't and even perhaps shouldn't have had the USB cable being constructed for me to have USB power on it. It was a question I asked Tim but never received an answer. Maybe it really doesn't matter if USB is isolated in the DAC anyway. I wonder then when I build my music server, if adding the JCAT USB PCI card isn't a waste of money? Many handmade USB cables don't measure to minimal USB 2.0 specs. I wanted a premium usb cable, but I want it manufactured by machine and meet USB specifications. I went with a Swedish company that makes the Supra USB 2.0 cable. $60 bucks, Thickest and most robust usb cable money can buy. lol I own the JCAT USB PCIE add-on card. I don't use it anymore, I honestly think it was my dumbest "Peace of Mind" overpriced purchase LOL. Additionally, if you ever want to send PCM 1.536mhz or DSD1024 from HQplayer the card wont allow you to go higher than 768khz and DSD512. As far as a dedicated Roon/hqplayer dedicated media server. I wanted a open and non-proprietary system with Windows 10 so I can use it with ROON, Hqplayer, Youtube, Sound Cloud, Pandora, Deezer et al. My custom fanless/Passively cooled Sigao Media system sports a very stylish 15lb heatsink chassis that looks like an amplifier and sits quietly in my listening room in my rack. I simply run a SUPRA USB from it to the Holo May KTE DAC. This is contrary to Roon's server/client model, but its a powerful mini-itx based 10-core CPU system using a premium ASUS mobo, 10th Gen 8 or 10 core processor, 512gb NVME, 4TB SSD for music library, 32gb DDR2666-3000. My system costs about $2k alone and $2650 with a HDPLEX 300w Linear Power Supply purchased at www.hdplex.com. (You should let Jonathan know you want to use an HDPLEX LPS at www.atlastsolutions.com when ordering since he will need to install a HDPLEX 400w DC-DC converter inside the Sigao heatsink chassis in lieu of the SMPS power supply included. The system can handle hqplayer at 1.536mhz or up to DSD1024 at lessor settings and DSD256 with ASDM7 modulators. If you really want to go for DSD1024 with ASDM7EC I would discuss that with Jonathan. He's hip on all this Roon/HQplayer stuff. He built my last two systems (Lightening killed the old one). If you need DSD1024 ASDM7EC you'll need a custom 6-8core CPU that can run continuous at 4.5ghz-5ghz of which HQplayer will use 2 cores for the modulator. There is an optional Nvidia Quadro available now, but I don't know ~500 cuda cores is enough to offload the modulator, but It may help. Link to comment
Popular Post StreamFidelity Posted February 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 18, 2021 16 minutes ago, Diavolo said: I own the JCAT USB PCIE add-on card. I don't use it anymore, I honestly think it was my dumbest "Peace of Mind" overpriced purchase LOL. Additionally, if you ever want to send PCM 1.536mhz or DSD1024 from HQplayer the card wont allow you to go higher than 768khz and DSD512. Fake News No. 1: I use JCAT USB Femto and XE Cards. Of course they go up to 1,536kHz PCM and 1,024 DSD. The appropriate driver must be installed under Windows. Below is an example with 1.411.2kHz PCM on a Denafrips T+. 23 minutes ago, Diavolo said: If you really want to go for DSD1024 with ASDM7EC I would discuss that with Jonathan. Fake News No. 2: With the CPUs available today, only DSD 256 with ASDM7EC is possible. In a 2-channel system, two cores must run on 4GHz. DSD 512 with ASDM7EC, two cores would have to run at approx. 8GHz, etc. 25 minutes ago, Diavolo said: There is an optional Nvidia Quadro available now, but I don't know ~500 cuda cores is enough to offload the modulator, but It may help. Fake News No. 3: It's the filters that can be outsourced to CUDA. Never the modulators. fds and luisma 1 1 Grigg Audio Solutions Owner StreamFidelitys Setup: Sonus Faber Amati Futura | T+A M10 | T+A SDV 3100 HV | fis Audio PC & Server | GigaWatt PC4-EVO+ | JCAT OPTIMO S ATX | FARAD Super10 & Super3 | Keces P8 | Afterdark Buffalo Switch | fis Audio Cables | Solidsteel HJ-3 / HY-A Link to comment
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