HOLO Audio MAY DAC

[Diavolo]

5 hours ago, barrows said:

If you are planning to use HQPlayer to oversample to high rates for use with the May (which I would recommend)-I would also recommend isolating your HQP server via Ethernet, or even better, optical Ethernet.  A server running HQP and oversampling to high rates makes a lot of noise, and no matter how "good" of a server you build, this noise needs to be isolated from your audio system and DAC.  This is why Jussi developed the NAA set up in the first place, so thta one does not have to worry (too much) about the server running HQP and its noise.  Ethernet distribution allows you to keep the noisy server running HQP with a high power processor away form he audio system.  So use the best Renderer with NAA capability which you can get your hands on to feed the DAC a nice clean, very high rate, USB signal with a really good USB cable. 

 

My computer based system is dead silent. It's a 20lb heatsink chassis, completely sealed, no spinning drives, powered by a 300w dedicated linear power supply. 

 

Hqplayer/NAA is way too slow and clunky for me with Roon, pitifully so. Lots of network bandwidth utilization and latency added with dsd512 or dsd1024. 

USB is so well executed in the May, I see no advantage to the Intone and my Sigao supports 1.536mhz/1024DSD over USB, but if you want to run DSD512 OR DSD1024 with the ASDM7EC MODULATOR, you would need an unlocked K processor with atleast 6 cores running 4.5-5ghz as my INTEL 10core can only muster 3.8ghz on all cores concurrently because it's not a K or overclockable cpu.  Besides hqplayer won't do much with more than 4 cores, so 6 very fast cores, (the extra 2 cores for os functions), should be plenty and are > 10cores @ 3.8ghz.  Watch the TDP and thermals if you go this route with a Sigao (www.atlastsolutions.com), and definitely run a dedicated outboard 300w-400w external linear power supply from hdplex to allow the heatsink chassis to deal with only processor heat dissipation. Jonathan at Atlast will know everything you need and any limitations. 

 

Cheers 🥂 

 

 

 

[barrows]

1 hour ago, MichaelHiFi said:

Question is this, why would it matter what power supply I use on the computer end if one ultimately uses fiber to send data to whatever device is downstream? Would a potentially noisy PS at the computer end pollute the data stream? I ask this because the power supply(s) is one of the costliest parts of our stream(s).

Unfortunately, one will find opinions on both sides of the spectrum regarding this question.  There are some actual facts though: The data stays intact in the case of an ethernet stream, no matter the noise level in the serving computer-this is an indisputable fact.  Now whether (or not) any noise from the serving computer gets to the DAC over an Ethernet distributed system, and whether (or not) that noise can affect the DAC's performance is not known to any degree beyond opinion.

Additionally, there is a very good argument to be made that by distributing audio data from a server, over an optical Ethernet distribution that there can be no noise transmitted to the Renderer.  There are many who dispute this point of view, but none of them have been able to offer any theory of how such might be possible, and much less any proof of such.  In a subjective sense, many users have had the experience of optical Ethernet distribution improving, often significantly, audio performance.

In the sense of being open minded, I will not state absolutes here, but I will say that if one uses an optical Ethernet distribution system to bring files from a server to the audio system, one should take care of things like power supply quality, cabling quality, and all the other small details which may (or not) affect audio performance on the Renderer/DAC side of the optical isolation well before worrying about what happens on the upstream server side (other than being sure to have a server and Network which functions properly).  Only when the downstream side is fully optimized does it make any sense to work on tweaking the upstream side with expensive cabling, fancy power supplies, or any of the other myriad of tweaks which might be applied there.  This POV assumes a system where the upstream side of the optical connection is in another room of the home, and plugged into a different AC circuit (hopefully on the opposite phase when possible) of the homes' AC supply.

[Diavolo]

1 hour ago, barrows said:

Unfortunately, one will find opinions on both sides of the spectrum regarding this question.  There are some actual facts though: The data stays intact in the case of an ethernet stream, no matter the noise level in the serving computer-this is an indisputable fact.  Now whether (or not) any noise from the serving computer gets to the DAC over an Ethernet distributed system, and whether (or not) that noise can affect the DAC's performance is not known to any degree beyond opinion.

Additionally, there is a very good argument to be made that by distributing audio data from a server, over an optical Ethernet distribution that there can be no noise transmitted to the Renderer.  There are many who dispute this point of view, but none of them have been able to offer any theory of how such might be possible, and much less any proof of such.  In a subjective sense, many users have had the experience of optical Ethernet distribution improving, often significantly, audio performance.

In the sense of being open minded, I will not state absolutes here, but I will say that if one uses an optical Ethernet distribution system to bring files from a server to the audio system, one should take care of things like power supply quality, cabling quality, and all the other small details which may (or not) affect audio performance on the Renderer/DAC side of the optical isolation well before worrying about what happens on the upstream server side (other than being sure to have a server and Network which functions properly).  Only when the downstream side is fully optimized does it make any sense to work on tweaking the upstream side with expensive cabling, fancy power supplies, or any of the other myriad of tweaks which might be applied there.  This POV assumes a system where the upstream side of the optical connection is in another room of the home, and plugged into a different AC circuit (hopefully on the opposite phase when possible) of the homes' AC supply.

 

Personally, I don't care that much, but a cheap smps spews hf noise, a well designed lps shouldn't, but I use the hdplex 300w lps to get the psu's added heat away from my heatsink chassis for my Roon Server.  The Hdplex 300w is cool looking sporting its own heatsink chassis which looks like mini-me compared to the Sigaos heatsink chassis.  They go together like peanut-butter and jelly🍌.  

 

If you're bored and want to understand USB AUDIO from a braniac at XMOS who knows his stuff, here's an interesting explanation.  There's lots on the website should you wish to go down the 🐰 🕳. 

 

USB Audio Basics

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track?uri=urn:aaid:scds:US:2d273de9-47b5-44de-ad44-384269f4f8f4

 

USB Can you Hear A Difference? 

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track?uri=urn:aaid:scds:US:92699166-4099-43c0-a950-0dcab3c12a16

 

[bibo01]

1 hour ago, barrows said:

n the sense of being open minded, I will not state absolutes here, but I will say that if one uses an optical Ethernet distribution system to bring files from a server to the audio system, one should take care of things like power supply quality, cabling quality, and all the other small details which may (or not) affect audio performance on the Renderer/DAC side of the optical isolation well before worrying about what happens on the upstream server side (other than being sure to have a server and Network which functions properly).  Only when the downstream side is fully optimized does it make any sense to work on tweaking the upstream side with expensive cabling, fancy power supplies, or any of the other myriad of tweaks which might be applied there.

In a server-switch-renderer configuration in your view how important percentage wise is to go optical Ethernet at switch-renderer level and how much at server-switch level?  

[barrows]

16 minutes ago, bibo01 said:

In a server-switch-renderer configuration in your view how important percentage wise is to go optical Ethernet at switch-renderer level and how much at server-switch level?  

I do not have any way to accurately answer this question.  There are so many possible variables in a Networked set up, that is very difficult to offer a “best” solution.  I would suggest, that my preference would be to run optical fiber for the longest run as it is noise immune, and I also would prefer to have optical cable as the final link to the Renderer, considering that this will allow the least noise to get to the Renderer, and that this approach will allow for least influence on sound quality via the upstream commercial computer components.  I would at least advise starting here, and then possibly experimenting from here if one is looking for further improvements.

[fds]

Anyone here using the Holo Audio May with the HQPlayer volume control directly connected to power amps as the favored setting? Is that a setting that works well?

 

According to JAs Stereophile measurements it seems to have a max output on the balanced outputs of 5.8V at 1kHz when using NOS mode.

(https://www.stereophile.com/content/holoaudio-may-level-3-da-processor-measurements)

Does this apply when feeding native DSD to the Holo Audio May NOS mode as well? Also does the voltage value matter when thinking about using a DAC with HQPlayer volume control directly connected to power amps?

 

Somehow I remember that I had read a comment from @barrows on this somewhere even in relation to the Holo Audio May but I was not able to find it.

[barrows]

6 minutes ago, fds said:

Anyone here using the Holo Audio May with the HQPlayer volume control directly connected to power amps as the favored setting? Is that a setting that works well?

 

According to JAs Stereophile measurements it seems to have a max output on the balanced outputs of 5.8V at 1kHz when using NOS mode.

(https://www.stereophile.com/content/holoaudio-may-level-3-da-processor-measurements)

Does this apply when feeding native DSD to the Holo Audio May NOS mode as well? Also does the voltage value matter when thinking about using a DAC with HQPlayer volume control directly connected to power amps?

 

Somehow I remember that I had read a comment from @barrows on this somewhere even in relation to the Holo Audio May but I was not able to find it.

My understanding is that the V out of the Holo DACs when running them with DSD is half of the PCM level, so 2.9 V at 0 dB.  When you oversample to DSD, you usually need to apply at least a 3 dB reduction in level before the oversampling to avoid clipping, so you lose about .9 V there.  This would leave your maximum V out at 0 dB around 2 V.  Then considering what you need in voltage output to accommodate some albums which may be recorded at lower average levels (like Reference Recordings, for example) one may not have enough V out to drive the amplifier to achieve sufficiently high enough volume levels.  In a lot of systems this would OK, but I know in my system, this would be borderline, and I would like to see Holo Audio change this behavior to allow for 4 V out on the balanced outputs when running in DSD mode.  This is one of the reasons I have not considered getting May for my system, as my preference would be to run amp direct, using the HQPlayer volume control.  But, a lot of systems will have sufficient gain to make this a non-issue, and here, I could probably raise the gain of my amplifier a few dB to accommodate the may, but this will raise the noise floor a little.

[MichaelHiFi]

Now that I've ordered a Holo May DAC, my next step it appears is to either procure or build-it-myself music server. I prefer to DIY as I spent my adult life building computers for home use. I like doing that.

 

It seems that in order to get the most from May KTE edition, one needs a quiet computer, quiet in my case is less generated noise, not room noise from fans. My server would not be in same room as my audio system.

 

I've been poking around on the web and noted many solutions for fanless computers. And it appears that fans aside from generating noise in the environment, generate noise on the bus which can affect SQ. Also noted that fanless computers that say use a i9-9900KF have a hard time when using the HQP high bit rate Holo May can generate.

 

This might sound crazy but thinking outside the box, what if I built a fanless computer/server but used fans to cool this beast with its own DC supply plugged into a wall outlet? I mean, say 4 or 6 fans mounted on a frame, directly cooling the MB and CPU with whatever fanless CPU cooler built for i9? 

 

Also noted the small form factor for many music servers. I absolutely hate small form factor cases. Big hands. 

 

Sorry if I'm posting in a Holo May thread a computer server build but I think it's relevant here. Please correct if I'm wrong. I'll post elsewhere.

 

Thanks

[GoldenOne]

26 minutes ago, fds said:

Anyone here using the Holo Audio May with the HQPlayer volume control directly connected to power amps as the favored setting? Is that a setting that works well?

 

According to JAs Stereophile measurements it seems to have a max output on the balanced outputs of 5.8V at 1kHz when using NOS mode.

(https://www.stereophile.com/content/holoaudio-may-level-3-da-processor-measurements)

Does this apply when feeding native DSD to the Holo Audio May NOS mode as well? Also does the voltage value matter when thinking about using a DAC with HQPlayer volume control directly connected to power amps?

 

Somehow I remember that I had read a comment from @barrows on this somewhere even in relation to the Holo Audio May but I was not able to find it.

With DSD its 2.9v according to the manual

 

The may handles low-level signals better than most dacs so it'll do DSP volume control very well. Personally i'd prefer to use a dedicated pre but either will certainly work (I'm using a goldpoint SA2X)

[ted_b]

Keep in mind, for those looking for the May (and others) to directly drive amps, that HQPlayer has a setting (not usually accidentally set but FYI) called "DirectSDM" which bypasses remodulation, etc AND the volume control...so beware.  :)  I'm sure you won't set it accidentally, but just FYI (again).  :)

[StreamFidelity]

22 minutes ago, MichaelHiFi said:

This might sound crazy but thinking outside the box, what if I built a fanless computer/server but used fans to cool this beast with its own DC supply plugged into a wall outlet?

 

You can build a completely fanless Audio PC with an i9-9900K CPU using this case:

HDPLEX 2nd Gen H5 Fanless Chassis

 

Even the power-hungry EC modulators can be used without any problems.

[fds]

16 minutes ago, ted_b said:

Keep in mind, for those looking for the May (and others) to directly drive amps, that HQPlayer has a setting (not usually accidentally set but FYI) called "DirectSDM" which bypasses remodulation, etc AND the volume control...so beware.  :)  I'm sure you won't set it accidentally, but just FYI (again).  :)

Thanks! This is a very important point. I was glad that I had checked this "DirectSDM" mode while still using an analog volume control to find out that the HQPlayer volume control is bypassed as well. More generally, one has to be very careful when using software volume control as stressed also in the HQPlayer manual. E.g. one has to make sure that the connected PC does not play any sounds (e.g. for incoming mails) that do not go through HQPlayer in that case. I think the use of software volume control does require some extra care. However, the benefit of HQPlayer software volume control is quite substantial for my T+A DAC8DSD ... still I hope that I will never fry my tweeters/ears that way due to some accident ... such as forgetting about that bypass mentioned by @ted_b when using DirectSDM mode at some point in the future towards the end of a long nightly listening session. 

[Diavolo]

1 hour ago, fds said:

Anyone here using the Holo Audio May with the HQPlayer volume control directly connected to power amps as the favored setting? Is that a setting that works well?

 

According to JAs Stereophile measurements it seems to have a max output on the balanced outputs of 5.8V at 1kHz when using NOS mode.

(https://www.stereophile.com/content/holoaudio-may-level-3-da-processor-measurements)

Does this apply when feeding native DSD to the Holo Audio May NOS mode as well? Also does the voltage value matter when thinking about using a DAC with HQPlayer volume control directly connected to power amps?

 

Somehow I remember that I had read a comment from @barrows on this somewhere even in relation to the Holo Audio May but I was not able to find it.

I'm running source direct to my Pass Labs XA25 via single-ended using Roon's digital volume control which controls Hqplayer's volume control when I use HQplayer which is becoming less and less since I rather enjoy the pure unadulterated sound of NOS from running ROON stock using its ASIO driver and digital volume control.  I also enjoy Hqplayer in 20bit/1.536mhz mode, but honestly we're splitting hairs imho vs Roon running NOS via ASIO.  I don't prefer pcm->dsd upsampling, but again it's beautiful sounding, just a tad smoother imho. 

 

Eitherway you do it, it works great for me. I'm not lacking in volume control or ultimate loudness.  (The XA25 is a single-ended output only, produces 50wpc into 4ohm Class A, and my Encore tower speakers are 96db/4ohm)

[barrows]

37 minutes ago, Diavolo said:

I'm running source direct to my Pass Labs XA25 via single-ended using Roon's digital volume control which controls Hqplayer's volume control when I use HQplayer which is becoming less and less since I rather enjoy the pure unadulterated sound of NOS from running ROON stock using its ASIO driver and digital volume control.  I also enjoy Hqplayer in 20bit/1.536mhz mode, but honestly we're splitting hairs imho vs Roon running NOS via ASIO.  I don't prefer pcm->dsd upsampling, but again it's beautiful sounding, just a tad smoother imho. 

 

Eitherway you do it, it works great for me. I'm not lacking in volume control or ultimate loudness.  (The XA25 is a single-ended output only, produces 50wpc into 4ohm Class A, and my Encore tower speakers are 96db/4ohm)

People often make the mistake of thinking that if the amplifier sends too much power to the speakers, problems will ensue.  While this certainly can happen, the much more common way to damage speakers is by clipping the amplifier drastically, where it no longer controls the output and sends a blast of DC to the speakers, or an extremely distorted signal.  The thing to be most careful of is to avoid sending the amplifier a signal level higher than its rated sensitivity.  Most good speakers can handle power input well over their rated maximum without damage, as long as that input power is clean and controlled by the amp, the damage usually occurs when the amplifier is clipped and loses control off the output.  This can actually happen more easily with a 25 watt amp, than with an amp of much higher power, because the 25 watt amp clips at a much lower input level. 

[Diavolo]

5 minutes ago, barrows said:

People often make the mistake of thinking that if the amplifier sends too much power to the speakers, problems will ensue.  While this certainly can happen, the much more common way to damage speakers is by clipping the amplifier drastically, where it no longer controls the output and sends a blast of DC to the speakers, or an extremely distorted signal.  The thing to be most careful of is to avoid sending the amplifier a signal level higher than its rated sensitivity.  Most good speakers can handle power input well over their rated maximum without damage, as long as that input power is clean and controlled by the amp, the damage usually occurs when the amplifier is clipped and loses control off the output.  This can actually happen more easily with a 25 watt amp, than with an amp of much higher power, because the 25 watt amp clips at a much lower input level. 

 

Sure, but at least the XA25 goes into early protection at 10amps, which only occurs so far on Yim Hok Mon "Poems of Thunder" (Big Kodo Drums 🥁 😁) . Otherwise, it's totally clean and that song plays really loud down to -6db, everything else sounds clean to -4db.  I'm usually listening around 80-85db around -15db to -10db.  Oh, & it's 50 wpc Class A into 4ohm on my speakers, so I get some benefit from that.  Don't go chopping off half my wattage 😁 🔊 lmao. I have Roon configured to preset the volume to -20db, and it's capped at -5db anyway. The software slider control is programmed to stop at -15db and I use the arrow buttons to attenuate lower until I'm happy 😊. 

[kimgg]

Anyone here using Holo May with Melco products? I have Melco N100 and wonder if I can connect by USB to May to play.

 

Support file (Server)	DSF, DFF, FLAC, WAV, ALAC, AIFF, AAC, MP3, WMA, OGG, LPCM
Support file (Player)	DSF, DFF, FLAC, WAV, ALAC, AIFF, AAC
Sampling rate (Server)	44.1K, 48K, 88.2K, 96K, 176K, 192K, 384K, 2.8M, 5.6M, 11.3M
Sampling rate (Player)	44.1K, 48K, 88.2K, 96K, 176K, 192K, 384K, 2.8M, 5.6M, 11.3M

[Solstice380]

18 hours ago, MichaelHiFi said:

Sorry if I'm posting in a Holo May thread a computer server build but I think it's relevant here. Please correct if I'm wrong.

Definitely a related discussion but that topic is covered extensively in multiple threads.  StreamFidelity’s thread and Best CPU for HQPlayer thread are great.  

 

 

[Holzohr]

18 hours ago, fds said:

Anyone here using the Holo Audio May with the HQPlayer volume control directly connected to power amps as the favored setting? Is that a setting that works well?

 

I am using the HQPlayer volume control (via Roon) with my Spring 2 for a couple of days. The DAC is directly connected to active speakers. The main reason to give this a try was the Roon extension rooDial. I am really happy about this solution. The Surface Dial makes the volume control very smooth. 

 

[mrkoven]

Has anyone moved from USB to I2S with a Singxer DDC or otherwise? I'm wondering if it's worth switching from USB to I2S. 

[Account Closed]

48 minutes ago, mrkoven said:

Has anyone moved from USB to I2S with a Singxer DDC or otherwise? I'm wondering if it's worth switching from USB to I2S. 

On my Spring 2 KTE, I have tried both and USB (with new the module and drivers) was just as good or better than I2s using my Singxer SU-1. The May should be even better with USB as it has enhancements the Spring 2 does not have.

[ted_b]

I just posted on the Holo Spring thread that although I still believe the SU-1 sq is marginally better than via the newer XU208 USB module, the gap narrowed significantly compared to the previous (original) USB module, and it would not surprise me one bit that it could be equal to or better than the SU-1 in a newer more resolving Holo Spring 2 or May.  The SU-1 is likely not the be-all end-all of DDCs, though.

[mrkoven]

Thanks for the thoughts. I will pass on try the Singxer then. I wonder if there is any higher end DDC or USB reclocker worth trying or if the May USB implementation is great enough to simply run USB direct from streamer as optimal. 

[John Hughes]

4 hours ago, mrkoven said:

Has anyone moved from USB to I2S with a Singxer DDC or otherwise? I'm wondering if it's worth switching from USB to I2S. 

I bought the Kitsune edition of the Singxer SU-1 so that I could have two USB sources for the May.  I haven't tried swapping my main Stack Audio Link II usb output direct into the May with the Singxer AES input yet.  I'll give it a go this weekend.

 

One note I will say is that I've gotten a big difference in SQ when using different 0.5M HDMI cables for AES with the SU-1,  so adding in that variable seems kind of dumb, the SU-1 would have to make a big difference over the May's USB input to warrant a change for me.

[ted_b]

11 minutes ago, mrkoven said:

Thanks for the thoughts. I will pass on try the Singxer then. I wonder if there is any higher end DDC or USB reclocker worth trying or if the May USB implementation is great enough to simply run USB direct from streamer as optimal. 

I certainly would give the May direct USB a long listen, so as to create a benchmark.  And to enjoy this great dac, before doing any more additions for now.  My $.02  Any comparisons after that will be easier if your familiarity with May and USB are solidified.

[John Hughes]

On 2/5/2021 at 9:36 PM, ted_b said:

I just posted on the Holo Spring thread that although I still believe the SU-1 sq is marginally better than via the newer XU208 USB module, the gap narrowed significantly compared to the previous (original) USB module, and it would not surprise me one bit that it could be equal to or better than the SU-1 in a newer more resolving Holo Spring 2 or May.  The SU-1 is likely not the be-all end-all of DDCs, though.

Ok, I did a comparison between the May's USB input and the Kitsune Singxer Su-1 with i2S out into the May.  The only difference is the 0.5M solid silver HDMI/i2S cable that is added into the path.  They are very close in SQ.  The May USB is a bit fuller and fleshed out in the midrange.  The SU-1 has more sparkle an extension on the highs, a feeling of a bit more clarity and detail, while being just a bit more forward with slightly leaner bass.   I liked the extra sparkle with the SU-1.

 

But really, everything I described is also a good description of what a well designed solid silver cable usually brings to the mix.  And the difference was minor.  So small differences, and I don't think the SU-1 would be something I would buy to upgrade the May's USB.

 

My source is a Stack Link II with LPS Ropiee XL endpoint (which is excellent). I was getting some PLL locking delays with the SU-1, and loud pops upon switching to DSD files and back to PCM. This is an regular issue with Roon endpoints, having to do with the way the files are handled at the core to the streamer.   I don't really blame the SU-1 for that, but just to be cautious. I don't get these issues with the May's USB input.  But since about 1/4 of my listening is DSD these days, I won't use the SU-1 for this.

 

I will continue to use the SU-1 to convert my Nvidia Shield USB audio output to i2S and send the 192K signal to the May.  I played Assassin's Creed Odyssey through it last night, and the sound was the best I've heard for games :)