HOLO Audio MAY DAC

[Flextreme]

On 12/10/2020 at 5:20 PM, matthias said:

 

How is PRAT, drive and slam with the May?

Thanks

 

Matt

 

Although your question is overlooked, this was exactly my question!

 

Now I own the May KTE, and after 13 days of burn-in, I can safely say: it is incredible in PRaT department. Before I got into the serious headphone game this year, I had a complete NAIM range in my living room. Naim knows PRaT, is famous for it, let me tell you, the May KTE owns Naim in the PRaT department. 

 

I was honestly a little scared before I got the May KTE, as I returned the excellent Pegasus Musician r2r DAC, because the one  thing was missing for me was PRaT (and Bass). Especially because the May soundstage is huge, I was worried it could sound 'distant' and too polite. I was worried this is typical for r2r DACs, but luckily the May proved me wrong.

 

How does it have PRaT? First off, the dynamic contrast is incredible in the complete frequency range, bass is supremely rich but also contoured and fast with slam.  Percussion nicely jumps out the mix with perfect transients, incredible detail, but never forcing it or fatiguing. Melodies flow, PRaT is truly effortless. Fast music seem to sound faster, slow music seem even more relaxed.

 

To me, the May KTE is an work of ART, every single aspect of SQ is perfect, and most importantly it always conveys the emotion of the music. Incredible. 

 

 

 

[Flextreme]

On 1/2/2021 at 5:09 AM, brightonjel said:

Hi Hols - thanks for that.  Yes, I had read that post in the other thread.  I think my issue right now is that the DAC itself is only report out a 705/768 capability and so whatever source I use to drive it limits output to that maximum number.  Even if I set HQP to a fixed rate of, say, 1.41 mHz, it plays at 705.

 

 

I have exactly the same issue: with Roon to stream to HQplayer (trail version), but also with local files. At the highest PCM rates, It plays 0.5 speed :)

 

I tried both Asio and Wasapi.

 

There are so many options when it comes to filter and output. It would be really nice to see screenshots by experienced May users of HQplayer settings, I'm sure I could learn from your experience. 

[Flextreme]

57 minutes ago, Flextreme said:

 

 

I have exactly the same issue: with Roon to stream to HQplayer (trail version), but also with local files. At the highest PCM rates, It plays 0.5 speed :)

 

I tried both Asio and Wasapi.

 

There are so many options when it comes to filter and output. It would be really nice to see screenshots by experienced May users of HQplayer settings, I'm sure I could learn from your experience. 

 

I should mention that I also tried an PCIE Asmedia USB 3.1 extension module and have a AMD x5800/x570 board.

[Flextreme]

2 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

That will be why. A lot of the PCIe USB cards do not work with the higher sample rates. You have to use one of the direct USB ports.

The May additionally has two versions of its firmware, one which supports 1.5mhz but may not work with all PCIe cards (this is stock usually)
and one that maxes out at DSD512/PCM768khz but will work with all the PCIe and other USB cleanup products.

Personally i'd say that 768khz on a good USB source is much better than 1.536mhz on mobo output anyway.
 

 

I tried all ports, removed my jitterbug, no luck so far. Also deleted devices with Device Cleaner before trying different ports.  I'm running on v1.20 firmware, should be recent?! BTW, I also like VR, and my HP reverb G2 headset also had USB issues. Mayby it is AMD related, or mayby it is time for a clean Windows install, mine is 4 years old. Come to think of it, I can try my intel based laptop. 

 

Will focus on testing 7xx Khz rates. I have to say, that Roon's upsampling is also an option. Especially with EQ enabled I prefer it over standard signal. It is clear to me HQplayer upsampling seems to give slightly more resolution, but i need more time testing the different settings. It is a fun but also tiring process because the differences are subtle. 

 

Is there a objective way to find out (other than subjective listening) which USB port gives best results?

[Flextreme]

15 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

Double check you're actually on the firmware that allows for 1.536mhz playback. There are two versions of the may firmware.

Download the attached file and run the "DFU" file (make sure you've got holo drivers installed first).
If it says you're on 3014, then that's the 768khz version. If you're on 3012 then it should play 1.536mhz fine. 
(If yours is a later number than these then you might have newer firmware so i'm not sure, let us know if that's the case though)

You can swap between these two firmware versions freely. If you are on 3014 and want to flash to 3012 then you can do so by clicking "Update" in the 3012 file

holo_gen2_3012_upgrade-20201231T222201Z-001.zip 202.67 kB · 1 download holo_gen2_3014_768k_upgrade-20201231T222148Z-001.zip 202.73 kB · 0 downloads

 

Thank you!!

 

I could not find firmware upgrades for the may anywhere, where can I find these. 

 

It says 30.14 in my Asio info tab. Are there any specific benefits to 30.14? Does not make sense that the higher version does not include the upgrade. But it does not matter if it works. :)

 

Edit: these are spring firmware? I noticed after the update, when my dac was listed as spring in Roon. Going back to 3014 did not work. Did a driver/device cleanup, also does not work. I will contact Kitsune for support, I hope they have a May firmware they can send. 

[Flextreme]

2 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

That's just cause roon doesn't have tagging for the may yet (though they have reached out to holo for it apparently)  https://community.roonlabs.com/t/add-identification-for-holo-may-dac/115197

So it will have removed whatever custom name you had for it previously.

afaik 3014 is just for better compatibility with PCIe USB cards. If you don't have one or don't have any issues, try flashing the 3012, should allow you to use 1.5mhz (though ofc some PCIe cards may not allow this, so try with mobo connection)

Kitsune's latest drivers are here: https://www.kitsunehifi.com/product/holo-audio-may-dac/
Click the "Downloads" section.

 

That is where I also originally got my drivers. That page specifically stated there is no firmware upgrade for May available. 

 

The firmwares are listed as Spring onoly firmware in the readme. I knew all this, so I never tried them.

 

*  Spring2 new usb firmware 30.12

*  Spring2 new usb firmware 30.14(only support up to pcm768k and dsd512). This firmware can be worked with those ‘hifi’ PCIE usb cards.

 

I assumed you sent me specific may firmware updates, and you got them privately from Kitsune. Luckily the firmware update tool still works.

 

 

 

 

[Flextreme]

2 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

There isn't a firmware update, just a firmware swap. (between 3012 and 3014). 

 

These are for the may, wildism (Asia official dealer for holo) gave them to me. I have no idea if the spring 2's upgraded usb firmware is the same as the may or not. (I think spring 2's upgraded module and the may share the same firmware but could be wrong) 

 

No one has mentioned if they've received any firmware update privately from kitsune so unfortunately I don't know what they're providing.

 

I did ask kitsune a while ago just in case they happened to have newer/different drivers or firmware than wildism (the drivers wildism gave me are actually a newer version than what kitsune has on their site) , but they told me they wouldn't provide any info/assistance cause I didn't order from them.  So no idea what's up. 

 

You can freely swap between the two firmware versions though. Because you were on 3014 that is why you weren't able to use 1.536mhz. If you swap to 3012 it will work. 

 

The .bin file you provided is identical (on a bit level) to the .bin file in the official download, where Kitsune states that this one only is intended for the Spring (both on the website and in the readme). I can only assume it was a misunderstanding by wildism.

 

Did you use these firmwares on the May?

 

I'm only disappointed in myself, because I was not careful enough. I was not sure before flashing, and I assumed these were really May firmware. The firmware version was on the May was 3014 in my asio tool before flashing, so it all looked fine and dandy.

 

I did read everything displayed by in the firmware tool, but is does not mention Spring or May.  Too bad the 3014 firmware form the downloads does not work either, luckily the May is not bricked and the firmware tool still works.

 

This could be a easy fix, at least I hope so.   

 

I have not heard from the Kitsune Support yet

 

[Flextreme]

can you share those drivers?

 

[Flextreme]

the May has sound on my intel laptop, which has the 4.67 driver!

 

That is super encouraging

 

Thanks for the download!

 

It now seems like something is wrong on my PC, but now it seems like I just have to clean up/deinstall drivers/devices. 

 

Thanks for your support, this is a rocky road, but there is also progress. 😄

 

[Flextreme]

9 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

Yep! Attached

HoloAudio_v4.82.0_2020-01-20_setup.exe 2.25 MB · 1 download

 

Thank you!

 

Ok, finally I am back up and running, the 3014 is working, 3012 no sound, no matter what I try.

 

To add to my (our) confusion during this firmware swap process, I did not notice my amps power supply cable had disconnected on its own after I swapped back to 3014 on my PC, it was loosely connected somehow. This sometimes happens because the PSU cable is extremely stiff, but it was crazy accidental in timing. Maybe I have an audiophile poltergeist here 🤣

 

So I was working 2 issues at the same time without me realizing. 

 

Too bad the 3012 does not work for me. I have a gut feeling my AMD is part of the problem.

 

I will be skipping ultra-high res upsample rates for now, the May is an glorious machine as it is. Love to extract everything out of it, but I am madly in love with its sound, and my set-up overall right now.

 

Again, thanks for your support and suggestions. You should know I have read and enjoyed your comments here and on head-fi on the May and those helped my motivation to invest in the May.

 

 

[Flextreme]

8 hours ago, Flextreme said:

Too bad the 3012 does not work for me. I have a gut feeling my AMD is part of the problem.

 

Had contact with Tim, he confirms AMD USB (and asmedia in my experience) can be the bottleneck, ultra high-res mostly does work on current Intel he said. 

 

Ultra high-res also does not work on some audiophile USB cards, which is fine by me. I'm curious if a Matrix Element H USB can improve the already excellent USB input of the May. Will test soon.

 

 

[Flextreme]

Just now, juanitox said:

fortunatly ,  the Holo dacs sounds very good too in real NOS mode , give a try and you could be suprise about playing the native rate 🙂

 

I can only agree. Without doubt, using NOS with bit-perfect music, the May sounds glorious. 

 

But I use Roon's excellent EQ to give grow some moderate but really nice musical 'balls'  on my Arya. With EQ music is not bit-perfect anymore anyhow. I did found out that when upsampling within software first (Roon), when using EQ, it consistently sounded better than sticking to 44.1. 

 

[Flextreme]

On 1/13/2021 at 9:00 AM, Diavolo said:

Per Jussi, 

 

For DSD512-1024 you can try setting modulator to DSD5 and filter to
poly-sinc-ext2. This would likely work, but only if the computer is fast enough.

However, for optimal performance, you could use ASDM7EC modulator and
DSD256 output rate, if your computer is fast enough for that.

May and Spring 2 should work fine at DSD rates multiple of 48k. Spring 1
didn't (like most other DACs). So you can check the "48k DSD" box.
However, I'm not sure if the ASIO driver supports those rates. Then you
can set rate limit to wanted multiple of 48k.

Problem with 96k (and other 48k-family) content is if DAC or driver
doesn't support DSD at multiples of 48k. Then if either filter doesn't
support "Any" conversion ratio (refer to the table in manual), or
"Adaptive output rate" is checked in settings, leads to conflict between
requested output rate and what is possible and thus HQPlayer refuses to
play.

For maximum performance from PCM side of Holo Audio DACs, you should set
"DAC Bits" to 20. And then for output rates equal or higher than 352.8k-1.536mhz 
use LNS15 noise-shaper (NS5 and NS9 are also options).
-----END JUSSI SUGGESTIONS -----

As for me, I don't have any SACD or Native DSD files, with a few rare exceptions.

I seem to notice more people seem to prefer upsampling PCM to DSD when using Hqplayer, but never vice-versa to my knowledge.  Since 99% of my 4tb library (also Tidal's library via Roon) is native PCM 16bit along with the fact that I tend to prefer the sound of upsampled PCM 1.536MHZ over DSD Upsampling ever so slightly in a better reproduced upper frequency detail/leading edge so I usually keep it set that way, but I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority since like I said, I read posts from plenty who love converting 16bit PCM to DSD256-DSD512 which seems to me to slightly round the leading edge ever so slightly.   Some high-end DACS actually do this internally (partially or entirely) and intentionally even if they don't necessarily advertise it, though there are models that cater to people who want this feature especially for pcm to dsd upsampling.  Again, you're really splitting hairs here, it's what ever you prefer.  

 

Purchased HQplayer, after I figured out I do prefer the additional resolution/sprakle you mentioned these settings will bring, I agree with your conclusion.

 

I can easily imagine many prefer DSD, but the May is so incredibly detailed without ever being harsh, it handles these PCM filter settings like a champ. I look forward experimenting with the filter settings once in a while and am curious  future versions of HQplayer bring additional improvements.   I'm hoping for a software version of Chords M scaler.

 

Thanks

[Flextreme]

53 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

I'm actually getting a home-demo of the chord Mscaler in the coming weeks. (Dealer is currently shut due to lockdown so will have to wait til they open again though).

I'll be using it with the may so will post my findings and comparison to HQPlayer here once i've given it a proper run.

 

That is super interesting, look forward to your conclusions. I'm sure I'm not the only one. :)

 

57 minutes ago, ted_b said:

Try Sinc-M or Sinc-S.  M does 1 million taps, S does increasing number depending on sample rate.

 

Thanks, obviously did not know this. That makes me curious to say the least. Is there somewhere a list of description/explanation for all these filter options for an oversampling noob like me?

[Flextreme]

8 minutes ago, Diavolo said:

The manual helps some. 

HQPlayer-manual.pdf 3.08 MB · 1 download

 

Thanks. Completely overlooked that section.

 

Also did not find the manual anywhere, was looking in the interface and website. Found the PDF only recently in start menu by accident.  

[Flextreme]

I did power off, because I took the break in process in overdrive (having no patience), playing max-loudness techno and pink noise 24/7. At one time, after 4 days, sound really degraded. After taking a pause and continuing the burn in process with normal music, things settled nicely. I'm quite sure my experience was incidental, because nobody reported something similar. Just do not do what I did and try to force the break-in process. 

 

Now I never power down the May. Not even stand by. 

[Flextreme]

Just discovered this amazing review by Goldenone, not shure why he did not share here, but I will anyhow:

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/an-exploration-of-chord-dave-mscaler-qutest-and-holo-may-hqplayer.952934/

[Flextreme]

7 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

Just wanted to post re: the drivers issue

Looks like kitsune has updated their driver/firmware download page now: https://www.kitsunehifi.com/product/holo-audio-may-dac/#tab-downloads-links

Driver v5.0 is out, and also its got the 3012/3014 firmwares in there. It confirms that the same firmware is used for spring 2 and may which is good.

Also, for @Flextreme it says in the .txt file in the driver folder that apparently 3014 has been the "stock" driver since late 2020, but that they recommend you upgrade to 3012 if your USB chipset is compatible. So that explains why you couldn't use 1.536mhz stock.

 

Yeah they cleared up the text on the homepage and in the driver: good. It was very confusing. Tim explained that 3012 mostly works on Intel, I figured my USB (AMD) would be the bottleneck. THe may is not the only device struggling: had similar issues with my HP reverb g2 vr set. 

 

I will retry, but I am not in a hurry, it is difficult to fault the May with the 3014, it is amazing. 

 

Do you actually notice an audible difference with 1.536mhz in comparison to 768khz with HQplayer?

[Flextreme]

Fellow HQ player and May owners,

 

Sorry to use swear words, but: Holy Shet, Wad Da Funk!!! HQplayer amazing filters are a true gem, thus far two really stand out:

 

But first, it is nice to have options: the May is also delightful without HQplayer. More natural I must say, HQplayer filters seem to emphasize audiophile qualities like detail, soundstage or PRaT, but thats why I like them. 

 

Like I said, two fiters stand out so far: I only do PCM on my May with some moderate EQ in Roon: 

 

"Poly Sinc Long Pm", my Susvara powered by Naim become almost aggressive and superman fast, I call it peak PRaT and detail. Highly analytical, but still supremely musical at the same time. This is one of the key benefits of the May KTE IMHO: it is so fast and punchy without losing the soul of music. With this filter, sometimes hi-hats, especially with electronic music, become audio needles, almost virtual hot needles in my brain, releasing rivers of dopamine, so sharp and ultra fast, but never harsh, in the most pleasant way imaginable. WOW.

 

"Sinc-L" is  better to my ears than sinc-m, which makes HQplayer better than M-scaler?! Most impressively, is the increase in soundstage compared to sinc-m. In comparison to the energetic 'Poly Sinc Long Pm'  filter, 'Sinc-L'  is a bit smoother, but timbre and soundstage are next level. Never imagined Susvara to being able to portray a sounds so large, with so much depth and height. WOW. 

 

It is now even more clear, I really appreciate the HQplayer filters. This changed after after I got my Supernait 2 and Hi-Cap to power the Sus and when this amp broke in again after being idle for 2 years. Both PRaT and soundstage massively improved in comparison to my A90 and HQplayer filters and oversampling, really, took it to the next level.

 

My point is: HQplayers filter are even better than I expected. The better your gear, the more HQplayers filters effect seem magnified and more obvious. Cheers and thank you for taking me down this nice and niche little Rabbit hole. 

 

 

 

 

[Flextreme]

Recently rediscovered the DSD filter in HQplayer. Love the gigantic (almost overly audiophile) liquid/plastic presentation of Sinc-L/ASDM7/@DSD256 on my AMD 5900x/RTX 3090 pc sourcing a May KTE.

 

Love to try ASDM7EC, but at DSD64 it barely works, higher DSD rates are constantly drop out, even with multicore DSP and Cuda enabled (and working, verified this). My guess my AMD x5900 is the limiting factor (processor or usb limitations?).

 

Did all recent  ZEN 3 platform updates for USB issues, but the fast MAY firmware (30.12) still does not work for me.

 

Anyone here got the May with 30.14 firmware running ASDM7EC at DSD256x on a AMD ZEN3 platform?

[Flextreme]

  

21 hours ago, Flextreme said:

Recently rediscovered the DSD filter in HQplayer. Love the gigantic (almost overly audiophile) liquid/plastic presentation of Sinc-L/ASDM7/@DSD256 on my AMD 5900x/RTX 3090 pc sourcing a May KTE.

 

Love to try ASDM7EC, but at DSD64 it barely works, higher DSD rates are constantly drop out, even with multicore DSP and Cuda enabled (and working, verified this). My guess my AMD x5900 is the limiting factor (processor or usb limitations?).

 

Did all recent  ZEN 3 platform updates for USB issues, but the fast MAY firmware (30.12) still does not work for me.

 

Anyone here got the May with 30.14 firmware running ASDM7EC at DSD256x on a AMD ZEN3 platform?

 

OK, after some extensive troubleshooting I think if found a solution. This is probably not May (USB) specific, but to ZEN3 (CPU).

 

Enable multi DSP and Cuda if possible. Fix and limit affinity of HQP to 3 threads on 3 separate logical processors on CCx1.

 

 

Create a shortcut with the command below, replace XXX with CMD. This will fix HQP to the first 3 CPUs, non SMT.

 

C:\Windows\System32\XXX.exe /c start "C:\Program Files\Signalyst\HQPlayer 4 Desktop" /High /Affinity 15 "C:\Program Files\Signalyst\HQPlayer 4 Desktop\HQPlayer4Desktop.exe"

Basically this is the ONLY way I can get ASDM7EC at DSD256x... All other options (more/less threads) will not work for me. HQP threads start jumping cores and it this leads to dropouts. Somethings wrong with the scheduling of threads of HQP on AMD...

 

I'm confident some AMD users run into the same issues as me, hopefully this can help.

 

[Flextreme]

On 5/13/2021 at 5:18 PM, Quadman said:

.  I have said numerous times I have a hard time turning this system off at night, it is so good, and so compelling.  Most listening sessions run 7+ hours and it is after 3am when I finally shut the music down.

 

This... 😂 

 

Been messing around with HQP for months, love it to bits. Finally have adsm7ec working without drops on dsd265x: the soundstage is simply glorious on my Susvara. Before I already enjoyed the Sinc L filter on PCM, now with DSD it is even more difficult put my Susvara away: every single minute with the May DAC has been thrilling, HQP took it to a stellar level. This hobby is genuinely addictive...

 

PS running Sinc-L with adsm7ec at dsd256x is quite masochistic: having to wait almost 20 seconds for your playlist to start, or when manually changing tracks.... It is totally worth it 😂

[Flextreme]

21 minutes ago, Roasty said:

 

hey there

 

did you ever get 3012 to work with your AMD? 
I'm also experiencing the same issue with 3012 ie no sound at all.

Nope.. tried everything, also firmware/driver updates and every known tweak  from AMD/Asus to resolve the Zen3's generally troublesome USB. Also tried and Asmedia 3.1USB PCIe-card. Nothing works so far. 

 

But I got to admit, with 3014, oversampled to 705/756k or DSD256x... it sounds glorious, I am super happy.

 

I also had huge issues running ASDM7EC at DSD256x on my AMD rig, constant drops. Luckily I found out by limiting HQP cpu affinity to 3 threads on 3 processors on the same CCX, not using SMT, ASDM7EC at DSD256x works fine most of the time (sometimes a HQP restart is required after listening for while). Combined with a quite masochistic 30 second play delay but to my ears delicious Syn-L filter: its soundstage is mesmerizingly holographic on my Susvara.

 

More information on how to run ASDM7EC at DSD256x on AMD: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/19715-hq-player/?do=findComment&comment=1131885

 

[Flextreme]

2 minutes ago, Roasty said:

 

thanks for replying! i'm also using an AMD processer.. ok, so looks like i have to settle with 3014 for now.

 

i'm running:

pcm768, sincMX, LNS15

dsd256, asdm7ec, ext3

 

no issues with 256 and 7ec filters, thankfully. i can run asdm7 and dsd512, but i prefer the 7ec filter over the non-ec. have u tried ext3? i quite like it.

 

am also running with the Susvara. geez, the Holo May sounds really good even out of the box. will be comparing with my Rockna Wavelight after the May settles in.

 

 

Which AMD CPU and Motherboard are you using? Had a 5800x and now a 5900x on Asus Crosshair Hero VIII x570. 

 

Will check out your HQP setting suggestions for sure 👍

[Flextreme]

11 minutes ago, Roasty said:

 

am using 

AMD Ryzen 9 3900x with a Gigabyte X570 I Aorus Pro

 

this is actually my gaming/editing rig... now am thinking if i should build a dedicated intel HQplayer machine.

 

Same... Many times considered this, I had real FOMO of not being able to run 1512 PCM or high DSD rates. .

 

But decided against it, because I am not sure it will sound massively better and it seems not that convenient. Hopefully other HQplayer owners can chime in with their experience and possible the benefits of a intel based dedicated HQplayer machine.