HOLO Audio MAY DAC

[Diavolo]

On 10/8/2020 at 10:36 AM, barrows said:

This confirms that the mini DSP has too much jitter.  When you turn off the PLL of the May, then all the jitter from the mini DSP goes right on through to the output of the DAC, and you are not getting the sound quality that you paid for.  Time to ditch the mini DSP if you want to achieve the sound quality which the May DAC is capable of. 

I had locking and intermittent audio drop out with my nvidia shield sending audio through my Samsung HDTV via Toslink.  I simply enable PCM Oversampling on the May when I watch things on the Shield.

 

For my music I rely on USB to my Sigao custom fanless heatsink chassis pc from https://www.atlastsolutions.com/sigao-model-b-fanless-pc-10th-gen-10-core-i9-10900t-up-to-64gb-most-powerful-fanless-pc-ever-h470i/ . It's equipped with a 10th Gen I9 Intel 10-core Processor running Roon and Hqplayer locally. I also power the Sigao with a brand new 300w HDPLEX linear psu. I drive the May KTE with a PCM 1.536MHZ signal. ( I use MinringFIR-mp, LNS15) I like DSD512 as well, but for me there's more lively detail on the PCM settings and for whatever reason I prefer that more detailed sound). I've had the May KTE for about 3 weeks and I can unequivocally state I will never own a chip based DAC ever again! The sound is superbly rendered, eerily palpable and holographic and the closest I've ever heard to the real thing in over 25 years of being in this hobby.  I wholeheartedly recommend the Holo May KTE to anyone who wants the gestalt of a genuine performance with absolutely nothing at all  in the way.  Perfection personified! You owe yourself to own this dac. 

 

Cheers, 

Jon 

[Diavolo]

After considering the terminator+ and May dacs, I ultimately went with the May because of their superb measured performance when compared to the Terminator Plus. They will not disclose detailed measurements when asked. I'm also not fond of the Terminator's design

 When compared to the much better thought out solution from Holo. 

[Diavolo]

1 minute ago, luisma said:

Have you?

 

I think they are not so much into digital processing with HQP and more into feeding standard redbook and outputting using only the DAC internals, not everyone is a fan of HQP

I use Roon which is limited to 768khz 32bit pcm. I never thought I'd use hqplayer, but it supports 1.536mhz pcm and allows you to set the word length to 20bit to match the May Dac as well as up to DSD1024, but DSD512 is more realistic as DSD1024 is very processor heavy task. Sounds pretty phenomenal to me in NOS mode on the May Dac to me at 1.536mhz pcm at 20bit. I prefer pcm to dsd, but I'm in the minority. I know of several who prefer DSD upsampling mode.  Hqplayer works well with Roon if they are both on the same media pc.  Remote use of hqplayer on a separate pc with Nvidia Cuda offloading is a bit laggy and not as good imho from a usability standpoint at least with Roon.

It maybe counterintuitive, but using a fairly powerful pc to do the upsampling using hqplayer is far superior to doing it in the DAC, as most don't have the horsepower or available processor heavy filters to chose from.  Ymmv, and I'm sure just sending redbook in NOS mode is also very good sounding as well. Whatever you chose, you won't be disappointed. 

[Diavolo]

2 minutes ago, luisma said:

Sorry for the OT but it related to the May indirectly, and this might bring more traffic to this topic, recent posts from Jussi he has recommended 18 bits LNS for most ladder DAC's, don't know if going from 20 bits to 18 bits will make a huge difference.

Me too but I was never a fan of their upsampling

 

I kind of agree, let's say 85% with this statement but once I played some files directly (not Roon) to my DAC (not the May but similar) and the sound was incredible without HQP (and without Roon), this was very subjective that's why I asked for all of your opinions regarding this subject.

 

Thank you @Diavolo for posting your opinions +1

 

Just a quick note, Jussi advised me to use 20bit for the May KTE DAC. He even recommends Holo NOS DACS (among others). This also applies to the Holo Spring model as well. Best of luck. 

[Diavolo]

I'm only on month two with my May KTE and I'm in love. 😁 Best sounding dac I've ever heard.  Happy Thanksgiving! 

[Diavolo]

13 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

are you upsampling in hqp ? curious what DACs have you compared with ?

I prefer HQP @ PCM 20bit/1.536mhz. I was very happy with Roon's upsampling which is limited to 768khz and honestly I swore I would never buy hqplayer because I was a naysayer, but I decided to play with it for a few weeks and I really enjoy the sound and prefer it to DSD512.  I feel DSD512 is very good, but maybe a touch less detailed or maybe a tad smoother sounding to me.  It could be all in my head, but I prefer PCM for whatever reason.

I've owned mostly Benchmark dacs source direct to various SET Tube amps, Matrix XSabre Pro MQA was my last dac (very best sabre dac I've owned) and I did use an Ayon Audio Stealth Tube DAC/preamp for a year (too colored, but pleasant sounding), but I have heard esoteric, dcs, Aurelic, Berkley, and other sabre chip dacs.  My friend recently bought the May KTE DAC and he was using the Berkley that he's now selling.

 

I've always wanted an R2R dac that had excellent measurements and was really excited when I found the May KTE DAC. I appreciate it's superb engineering and it's natural sound along with its incredible harmonics, beautiful midrange, timbre, detail, and holographic realism with regard to image separation, depth, layering, and palpability (ugh, I can't believe I used that word, lol). It's worth twice it's price in my honest opinion. 

[Diavolo]

8 minutes ago, Savolax said:

Not to take any enjoyment from you but I tried May L2 and Audio GD R7HE home for two weeks. Decided to go on with the latter. 

I felt it was a little more easier for my ears with headphones and especially with music that is not necessarily mastered "audiophile style". Another local enthusiast seemed to prefer more of May though.

 

I am not sure if this was the best thread to post but if someone is thinking of investing big money in to a DAC, what my point is, is not "buy R7HE instead" but if possible I would strongly recommend home audition with few dacs same time. Flexible dealers might make it happen if asked.

Gives more perspective and in my case, if I just had bought May blindly I might not have been 100% satisfied. Both are great DAC's though and I would say it was only a slight specific flavor in sound that mattered the most.

Oh no worries. It's hard to try everything. I know I was kind of sold after the professional reviews came out and was a bit smitten looking at the insides. I rolled the dice mostly on how positive reviews are of holo dacs are in general. I just always wanted to try an R2R without giving up superb measurements. The May just pushed all my buttons. 

[Diavolo]

5 minutes ago, Savolax said:

Yeah I know and understand. I for myself actually had to contact my bank to make this simultaneous home demo happen as the biggest challenge was money 😁

There has also been lots of positive towards Rockna dac. The "cheaper" one is somewhere close to May price range but for that DAC there seemed to be some delays to obtain one upon purchasing so had to leave that one out of the picture. I feel happy with R7HE though I recognized technical performance of May.

I'll leave with this off-topic now.

Oh no worries, you're not bothering me. ☺ I'm glad you found a great dac! 

[Diavolo]

3 minutes ago, ThenewGearPPK said:

 

How's the May vs the Matrix XSabre Pro?

I think the Matrix XSabre Pro MQA DAC is the best sounding Sabre based dac for the money $2k that I've ever heard.  No glare or minor upper midrange audible harsh annoyance like I noticed in the Benchmark DAC3 HGC. It's very detailed with a smooth vocal presentation. Extremely top tier measurements and billet aluminum chassis/superb build quality.  When compared to the May, the May KTE DAC sounds more natural, and harmonically rich, with more accurate timbre of instruments.  It's like going from 2d to 3d interms of imaging for me.  Vocals are explosive, dynamic, smooth, natural and very visceral and real sounding. 

All instrumental images have specificity, dimension, depth, and layering separate from other instruments. I became very fond of guitars on Bluegrass (a genre I never really was into) and steel guitar on old blues songs really are so genuine and dynamic sounding they grab your attention.  There's a realness to any acoustic music you play and it's very addictive.  Jazz is superb, double bass is incredible, Cellos are perfect as are violins.  Overall bass is superb, but I attribute that somewhat to my Pass Labs XA25 amplifier that is known for prodigious bass or possibly by the synergy it has with my Tekton Design Encore speakers 96db/4ohms.  I now have a dedicated and acoustically fully treated room so I can really hear the differences between component changes. 

I've never been so enamored and amazed by a dac's influence on my enjoyment level of a musical presentation. I have nothing, but praise and zero regrets. 

 

 

[Diavolo]

I'm on pc so I don't know if any of this is helpful. 

 

Have you made sure the Holo May KTE is in NOS mode and not OS or OS/DSD nor OS/PCM mode? 

 

Is your playback software taking 'Exclusive Control' of your DAC's USB driver preventing Hqplayer from actually applying your 1.4112mhz or 1.536mhz setting? (If you're using HQplayer by itself and no other audio software is on then this won't be your issue.)  (It may not even be a Mac audio issue, but it perplexed me when I used Roon (in ASIO EXCLUSIVE  MODE) while streaming to HQPLAYER software as an ASIO endpoint which was in fact problematic.

 

Are you able to successfully select 1.536mhz in HQPLAYER settings?

 

Regarding the other scenarios you mentioned it's likely you are being capped by the limitations of that hardware/software. I can only go to 768khz via USB with Roon's internal upscaling and there's definitely limitations over a network connection with DSD using Roon I believe capped at DSD256, and definitely DSD512 via USB.  

 

Lastly, this could possibly be a USB Port related issue. I was unable to use my JCAT Femto clock USB pcie card to achieve maximum throughput rates simply because the antiquated USB chip and driver were not able to support it whereas I had no issue using my Sigao custom media server albeit with very new Internal USB 2/3 ports on a very current motherboard.

 

By all means contact Tim at Kitsune as he solved the same issues you were having. 

 

Hope maybe some of this helps? 

[Diavolo]

13 hours ago, brightonjel said:

Thanks - the May reports that it's running v 1.20.  Any idea which version that might be?  Given that none of the USB probes come back with anything above 768 kHz, you may be onto something. (As for the uRendu supporting it, I've seen a response saying "no reason not, but not tested", so ... that's a "maybe" I guess!)

 

When I checked the downloads on Kitsune website it states there's no firmware update needed for May dac and that the included versions in the driver/firmware download package is only for other models.  I don't recall doing anything with firmware on my unit to get PCM 1.536MHZ to function properly, but I did need to use a motherboard USB port in lieu of the USB port located on my JCAT Femto USB pcie card (As an aside, what a complete and utter waste of good money to the snake oil Gods. 😁 ) 

[Diavolo]

44 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

For me, the JCAT USB cards (Femto and XE) run without any problems in the highest resolutions (PCM 1.536 / DSD 1.024).

When I brought up the issue with PCM 1.536mhz playback not working with the JCAT, Tim at Kitsune told me the JCAT Femto card was also problematic at 1.536mhz for him and several other May owners and he advised to simply use the motherboard's native USB ports. In fact, Tim told me he even ordered the XE card to see if it would work with its newer chip since the Femto pcie uses a pretty old/cheap NEC chip I believe. I followed up a few weeks later, but he had been so busy he hadn't even tried the XE version.  For me the point is moot, it was a hasty and costly snake-oil purchase on my part, and turned out to be a complete waste of money as it did absolutely nothing as far as I could hear to improve the noise floor or sound quality. 

[Diavolo]

19 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

I think that's a shame. Of course I can understand your frustration. As is so often the case, it depends on the overall system whether a high-quality USB card can develop its effect. The audio PC is important, the power supply is extremely important and the software must be audiophile. The room acoustics have to be right and so on. Most people hear the effect. Sometimes it just doesn't fit. I hope you continue to enjoy listening to music.

I totally agree and that's why I have a dedicated fully acoustically treated main listening room, a custom fanless and silent running a TOTL high performance Sigao Model B Heatsink Chassis/ custom built media server made in the UK by (www.atlastsolutions.com) powered by a recently upgraded 300w LPS made by HDPLEX (the original 200w model wasn't powerful enough to run the new Intel 10th Gen 10-Core based media server after my 5 year old unit got damaged by an indirect lighting strike a few months ago along with all my networking components).  My entire lossless 4tb music library is stored on a Samsung 4TB SSD (Also use Tidal with Roon) , the os/Roon Server/Hqplayer run off a 512gb Samsung Pro 980 Nvme ssd. It's a powerful fast system capable of up to DSD1024 upsampling with Hqplayer's resource intensive settings. The server has its own independent balanced Isolation Transformer. The rest of the system is powered by a separate Equitech Son of Q balanced Isolation Transformer.  The Holo May KTE DAC runs source direct to my Pass Labs XA25 50wpc/4ohm Class A amplifier.  (I use Roon's remote volume control to attenuate Hqplayer's master volume control which allows me to eschew the use of a preamplifier which, to my ears, reduces detail and simply adds noise, unnecessary complexity, and is extraneous as I've only got the one single digital source; one USB cable direct to the Sigao Roon Server. This is so I don't suffer any lack of functionality via network limitations imposed by Roon using their client/server model.  My speakers were commissioned by me to be made by Eric Alexander at Tekton Design. I'm a very proud owner of the very first pair of Encores which are 96db sensitive into a 4 Ohm load and use a novel patented 15 tweeter MTM array that covers 300hz-20khz, along with two dedicated Audax 7" midbass drivers, and two 10" subwoofers dual rear-ported and tuned around 40hz.  They out class about any speakers I've personally owned or used to sell when I was in the high end audio business prior to the 2008 real estate debacle. Eric Alexander is a genius. I've never heard a 4 way design with the coherency and that wall of sound disappearing act of a panel speaker coupled with the dynamics and efficiency of a horn speaker without the negatives.  I spent 20 years running SET tube amplifiers, but after hearing the XA25 I sold my Allnic A6000 Quad Parallel 300bxls SET Monoblocks tube amplifiers. This is only solid-state amp I've ever heard that matches a SET tube amp in the midrange while giving up nothing in superb bass performance which you often do when using lower powered nfb SET designs.  All cabling is 10awg Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval.

 

The Holo May KTE DAC is exactly what my system needed to finish it for now. It's an incredibly resolving and yet natural and holographic presentation. I finally want for nothing.  Omg, I'm sorry for the rambling. I'm on my 3rd cup of coffee ☕. 😁  I'm a total motor mouth about this hobby. I'm very passionate about it. 🥂 Cheers and HAPPY NEW YEAR Everybody! 

 

[Diavolo]

40 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

An impressive system. My compliment.

 

 

Is it this model?

 

 

Where do you connect the JCAT PCIe USB Femto Card above? Is it connected with a riser cable instead of the GPU?

Thank you. Yes, you can do it that way or there's even a newer motherboard that supports up to two pcie x1 devices or one x4 pcie. Regardless to pair with a hdplex 300w lps you would specify the hdplex 400w DC-DC converter in lieu of the stock 200w internal smps.  I designed passively cooled products like this for (the now defunct) Niveus Media Denali, Ranier, and K2 massive fanless media servers.  

https://www.engadget.com/2008-09-04-niveus-reveals-upgraded-rainier-denali-and-pro-series-media-ser.html

 

[Diavolo]

50 minutes ago, John Hughes said:

I have been corresponding with Tim @ Kitsune, and he says that USB does use PLL:

 

 

You are most certainly correct. 

[Diavolo]

27 minutes ago, Flextreme said:

'm curious if a Matrix Element H USB can improve the already excellent USB input of the May. Will test soon.

 

No luck with my JCAT FEMTO USB PCIE card. Tim told me USB pcie don't work. 

[Diavolo]

41 minutes ago, juanitox said:

fortunatly ,  the Holo dacs sounds very good too in real NOS mode , give a try and you could be suprise about playing the native rate 🙂

 

I'm using the Intel usb on my new roon server so I'm able to play 1.536mhz or DSD1024 through HQPLAYER.  I agree NOS is good too. I never noticed any benefit to the JCAT Femto USB pcie card, truth be told. 

[Diavolo]

6 hours ago, ted_b said:

If you are using HQplayer then NOS is your only real option.  Let HQP do the work and leave the dac to do less lifting, if any.

 

Oh, I was referring to using NOS mode by itself with lossless redbook sans HQplayer which I was agreeing with the OP that it too sounds very good.  Sorry, I wasn't really clear. 

I mostly use HQplayer in PCM 1.536MHZ.  I think I'll go back to DSD1024 for awhile to compare them some more, but it's splitting hairs. I keep thinking DSD is just a tad smoother and hair less detailed than using PCM 1.536MHZ, but there are several other filters to try.  Honestly, I'm not much for fiddling around a lot with settings because it makes me a bit too focused and less relaxed trying to enjoy music. 

[Diavolo]

3 hours ago, ted_b said:

Ah makes sense. 
Two questions:

1) what PCM HQP filter do you use most often at 1.5mhz?

2). When you say you will try DSD1024 are you saying with PCM material?  If DSD sources do you also convert to PCM 1.5mhz or keep those in DSD?

 

I ask cuz I seldom cross convert with my Spring dac. PCM sounds best at 8fs (highest I can go right now) using ext2, and DSD at DSD256 modulated with ASDM7EC. 
thx

Per Jussi, 

 

For DSD512-1024 you can try setting modulator to DSD5 and filter to
poly-sinc-ext2. This would likely work, but only if the computer is fast enough.

However, for optimal performance, you could use ASDM7EC modulator and
DSD256 output rate, if your computer is fast enough for that.

May and Spring 2 should work fine at DSD rates multiple of 48k. Spring 1
didn't (like most other DACs). So you can check the "48k DSD" box.
However, I'm not sure if the ASIO driver supports those rates. Then you
can set rate limit to wanted multiple of 48k.

Problem with 96k (and other 48k-family) content is if DAC or driver
doesn't support DSD at multiples of 48k. Then if either filter doesn't
support "Any" conversion ratio (refer to the table in manual), or
"Adaptive output rate" is checked in settings, leads to conflict between
requested output rate and what is possible and thus HQPlayer refuses to
play.

For maximum performance from PCM side of Holo Audio DACs, you should set
"DAC Bits" to 20. And then for output rates equal or higher than 352.8k-1.536mhz 
use LNS15 noise-shaper (NS5 and NS9 are also options).
-----END JUSSI SUGGESTIONS -----

As for me, I don't have any SACD or Native DSD files, with a few rare exceptions.

I seem to notice more people seem to prefer upsampling PCM to DSD when using Hqplayer, but never vice-versa to my knowledge.  Since 99% of my 4tb library (also Tidal's library via Roon) is native PCM 16bit along with the fact that I tend to prefer the sound of upsampled PCM 1.536MHZ over DSD Upsampling ever so slightly in a better reproduced upper frequency detail/leading edge so I usually keep it set that way, but I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority since like I said, I read posts from plenty who love converting 16bit PCM to DSD256-DSD512 which seems to me to slightly round the leading edge ever so slightly.   Some high-end DACS actually do this internally (partially or entirely) and intentionally even if they don't necessarily advertise it, though there are models that cater to people who want this feature especially for pcm to dsd upsampling.  Again, you're really splitting hairs here, it's what ever you prefer.  

[Diavolo]

17 minutes ago, ted_b said:

I am gonna get a hold of Tim and see if I can get my hands on a May soon, now that I am back in the listening business.  I love the Spring but itching to hear 32fs. 👍

 

Good luck buddy.  It's definitely the very best measuring resistor dac to date, at least to my knowledge which is, if for no other reason a SOTA Engineered masterpiece, that's simply the most natural and genuine sounding dac I've heard.  You're going to fall in love with it. My buddy bought one and he's ecstatic as well. I don't envy your wait, but maybe he's not as back logged now so it won't take too long.  I was pleasantly surprised when it showed up in only 2 weeks, but some have waited 4+ weeks. Congratulations on your decision. I'm excited for you. 😊 

[Diavolo]

2 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

I think the dsd5 modulator is fairly light on the cpu so 1024 isn't awfully hard. 

 

Its the ec modulators that sound amazing but are incredibly intensive. 

Though personally I prefer asdm7ec x256 to anything I can run at x1024

It's called a Sigao B made in UK,   https://www.atlastsolutions.com/sigao-model-b-fanless-pc-10th-gen-10-core-i9-10900t-up-to-64gb-most-powerful-fanless-pc-ever-h470i/

 

With Nvidia Quadro GPU. 

https://www.atlastsolutions.com/sigao-model-b-fanless-pc-10th-gen-10-core-i9-10900t-up-to-64gb-nvidia-quadro-p400v2-multi-display-h470i/

 

It's a custom fanless/silent running passively cooled heatsink chassis with heat pipes to passively cool the 10th Gen 10-Core i9 10900T  CPU(120wTDP), mine is fully loaded with an added 4tb ssd for music that I added.  I power it with a separate HDPLEX 300w linear power supply.

 

There's a newer version with an added Nvidia Quadro graphics card which is also passively cooled. If this Quadro is compatible with hqplayer's gpu offload feature it would be pretty sweet for extra processing. As Jussi mentions in my earlier post DSD1024 is very hard even with easy settings. I'm going to switch to his recommended DSD256 settings to try it out. Jussi said this isn't easy either. (see my previous post) 

[Diavolo]

3 minutes ago, barrows said:

i9-10900T appears to have a very low clock base frequency?  Jussi has mentioned that a high clock base frequency is desirable for oversampling to DSD and using the EC modulators, and it would appear that the "T" version  would not be the best choice for this?

 

Haven't noticed any issues other sometimes a longer delay, Roon is delayed some anyway even though they run on the same computer, but I don't listen to DSD1024 honestly. As previously mentioned I'm 99.99% using PCM 1.536MHZ, which is very easy of course.  If the Quadro Graphics they offer is Hqplayer compatible for gpu offloading, that would be very sweet and lesson the CPU strain. 

 

I've toyed with asking Jonathan (super nice and very knowledgeable; also the owner) if they can sell me the Quadro card, heatsink mounting hw, and heat pipes, but my interest level is rather low. 

 

I did modify the power and performance settings in bios to allow the cpu to get more power and clock higher when I got the 300w LPSU. Jonathan gave me lower powered Brick ac-DC smps while I was waiting on the hdplex which was delayed/backorder and they had a minor qc issue on the first batch so they needed me to swap the unit before I even hooked it up. 

 

I would ask Jonathan if has a higher base clock multicore processor that he could use with out overloading the chassis with too much heat, but I recall that case dissipates like 200w I think. 

[Diavolo]

8 minutes ago, Flextreme said:

 

Purchased HQplayer, after I figured out I do prefer the additional resolution/sprakle you mentioned these settings will bring, I agree with your conclusion.

 

I can easily imagine many prefer DSD, but the May is so incredibly detailed without ever being harsh, it handles these PCM filter settings like a champ. I look forward experimenting with the filter settings once in a while and am curious  future versions of HQplayer bring additional improvements.   I'm hoping for a software version of Chords M scaler.

 

Thanks

Oh, awesome! You're vere welcome. Happy listening! 😊 

[Diavolo]

1 hour ago, Flextreme said:

 

That is super interesting, look forward to your conclusions. I'm sure I'm not the only one. :)

 

 

Thanks, obviously did not know this. That makes me curious to say the least. Is there somewhere a list of description/explanation for all these filter options for an oversampling noob like me?

The manual helps some. 

HQPlayer-manual.pdf

[Diavolo]

On 10/30/2020 at 4:19 PM, mushi said:

I hear you.

But how do you explain that miniDSP and PLL works together on OS mode but on NOS mode doesn't?

And I'm not the first one, @Diavolo has the same problem with SPDIF.

 

I agree with you. I guess when the signal goes to the AKM upsampling chip, it's entirely reclocked, as a friend suggested, but maybe PLL is not actually on when OS is on?  I know it's so much easier to turn on or off OS using the remote then fussing with the PLL feature.