The problem with subjective impressions

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7 hours ago, davide256 said:

My mind was made up in the 1980's when "objectivists" tried to argue that Denon turntables were better than Linn Sondek because they measured better... I have

no respect for any opinion that doesn't use actual listening experience  to determine whether measurements have useful correlation to results. Misuse of science

is common when we don't understand the underlying phenomena, don't verify the measurement is targeted to what we are trying to prove. Eventually science improved to where it was recognized that the direct drive motors of the time suffered from step "cogging" from too few steps

I thought that was what heavy, rim-weighted platters were for; to smooth out the cogs? Of course, my vintage Thorens TD-160, MK-II, doesn’t cog, because it’s belt-drive, but I’ve a friend with a JVC high-end direct drive ‘table, and it sounds very good with its SME 3009 arm and Koetsu cartridge, thank you.

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7 hours ago, davide256 said:

I'm pretty certain that your Thorens if maintained will make the JVC eat dust in a bass and dynamic range comparision...

Maybe, I‘ve never heard them together. I do know that the combination of my TD-160 Mk II and my Mayware Formula 4 unipivot arm (a present from J. Gordon Holt, BTW) with my Sumiko Blackbird cartridge (re-tipped with a line-contact stylus and new cantilever) is the best vinyl playback I’ve ever owned. 

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44 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Where "The problem with subjective impressions" can really come into its own, is history ... of the gear ... in the preceding hours. Warmup, conditioning is so important, especially of cheaper stuff ... and this was so obvious with the Moonlight Drive track: listen to one version, early in the piece, and it sounds truly dreadful; go through a number of further listenings - and then go back to that first version ... Huhhh?!! It's now sounding pretty decent! - well, it's benefiting from the circuitry, and speaker suspensions having been nicely exercised in the interim; and so the treble, especially, is starting to come together.

 

If one doesn't realise what's going on, a completely incorrect conclusion will be reached- I always hammer gear for at least an hour or so before I take serious notice of what "it sounds like".

Yes, letting electronics “warm-up” before serious evaluation is always a good idea. I leave things like headphone amps, preamps, and DACs on all the time, if it is practical to do so.

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1 hour ago, sandyk said:

George

 If you need to do that then the products are poorly designed. 

Well engineered products should reach optimum performance within 15 minutes or so after switch on unless they haven't been used for some time.

 

Regards

Alex

I agree, but I didn’t say I had to leave low power things on all the time, I just do it because it’s convenient and cheap to do so. But some manufacturers do recommend that their products be warmed-up for at least an hour before attempting any serious listening. Frankly, it probably doesn’t make a lot of difference, it just becomes another of those dubious audiophile rituals, and I admit to adhering to some of them, including the 1 hour warm-up when I’m actually listening to something I’m reviewing (but I don’t do it so much when listening for pleasure).

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46 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

ARC claims 1 hour for their tube products

 

or maybe they are poorly designed...

Yeah, and Nordost recommends that you equip your entire system with Valhalla II interconnects for best sound.🙄

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6 hours ago, semente said:

 

Not at all, thanks for the suggestion.

I have actually bought a pair of NADs before Christmas, but I never enjoyed listening with headphones and these aren't going to change that.

May end up buying a pair of all-in-ones like the D&Ds or something similar.

looks to me like you need to try some really GOOD headphones. Try the modestly priced HiFiMan Jade2 electrostatics, or, if you have the cash, a pair of Stax SR-009s and the SRM-007TII amplifier. Either one as well as a good pair of magnetic phones such as the Sennheiser HD-800s, or the HiFiMan Arya will likely change your mind. Keep in mind that if you opt for a pair of magnetic headphones instead of electrostatics, you’re going to have to spring for a really good headphone amplifier or you are wasting your money. Something like the Headamp brand or one of Schiit’s headphone amps. Plugging into an amplifier’s or a DAC’s headphone jack usually just won’t do (there are a few exceptions - Benchmark’s DAC3 headphone amp is excellent as is the headphone amp in the Hugo2 DAC from Chord. I’m sure there are others.

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9 hours ago, daverich4 said:

I think a preference for or against headphones is more than that. I have HD800’s, Audeze LCD-3’s and Focal Clears. I much prefer listening to my stereo over any of them. 

I too prefer to listen over speakers when possible. But when one lives in an apartment as do I, one cannot “raise the roof” with realistic orchestral SPLs, so headphone listening is necessary sometimes. I decided to embrace headphones and having decided that, I might as well find the best that I could afford. At the moment, that’s the HiFiMan Jade2 electrostatics with the Stax SR-L007s as a close second.

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10 hours ago, 4est said:

Although I am sure you are correct, I just haven't seen this as of yet. I've not owned uber high end DACs, but I switched from a Berkeley Audio DAC to a Weiss DAC2 at one point. They sounded clearly different here. At the time, I think they were both in the 3-5k range. My present DACs are DIY, and they all sound different than the Weiss or each other. I kept the Weiss until I could beat it.

I’ve yet to hear two different DACs sound, even superficially, alike. Even different models from the same manufacturer sound different.