Perception of vertically separated sound sources in the median plane

[Fokus]

On 12/22/2019 at 1:04 AM, semente said:

I have a few dummy head recordings and can't perceive height with my speakers.

Must try with headphones.

 

Of course. Dummy head recordings are explicitly made to be used with headphones. It won't work otherwise (*).

 

And even with headphones you have to be lucky to get a decent match between the dummy and your own ears.

 

 

(* There might be schemes and attempts, but these are not mainstream.)

 

[STC]

1 hour ago, Fokus said:

And even with headphones you have to be lucky to get a decent match between the dummy and your own ears.

 

 

(* There might be schemes and attempts, but these are not mainstream.)

Usually it will work for most provided the recording is done correctly.  The sample below works very well for me where I perceive true 360 degrees. The down below effect is the best I heard. Not sure if every one could perceive them accurately. Try earbuds phones and over the ears headphones and see which one works better for you. Not sure if they are still around. 
 

https://youtu.be/QbOmya3X4kw

[Jud]

22 hours ago, semente said:

 

Then we are back to the omni array of mics and the onmi sphere of speakers with the listener sitting inside.

 

This creates so many obstacles that it'll never happen at a domestic level.

 

Don't know that we'd need an "omni sphere." Might be able to do with 8 speakers at the corners of a cube. Agreed that 8 speakers with acceptable high end performance aren't something ordinarily affordable for most households right now. And right now, the computer power to provide 8 channels of appropriately DSP'd high end audio is probably not practical either. 

 

But it's not that far off. So I wouldn't confidently predict this will never ever happen. Would the recording industry ever get behind it? Don't know about that either, but if it becomes practically affordable enough, there might be interest. Again, I wouldn't be able to say "never" with confidence - that's a long time.

[semente]

43 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Don't know that we'd need an "omni sphere." Might be able to do with 8 speakers at the corners of a cube. Agreed that 8 speakers with acceptable high end performance aren't something ordinarily affordable for most households right now. And right now, the computer power to provide 8 channels of appropriately DSP'd high end audio is probably not practical either. 

 

But it's not that far off. So I wouldn't confidently predict this will never ever happen. Would the recording industry ever get behind it? Don't know about that either, but if it becomes practically affordable enough, there might be interest. Again, I wouldn't be able to say "never" with confidence - that's a long time.

 

If the classical crowd were to jump on, then maybe. But for other genres, I really doubt it.

[Allan F]

23 hours ago, semente said:

I see many audiophiles obsessing about soundstage but soundstage is superfluous in the grand scheme of music enjoyment.

 

It may be to you and that's fine. I don't see it as superfluous, but it is hardly the most important characteristic that contributes to my enjoyment of music.

[semente]

46 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Don't know that we'd need an "omni sphere." Might be able to do with 8 speakers at the corners of a cube. Agreed that 8 speakers with acceptable high end performance aren't something ordinarily affordable for most households right now. And right now, the computer power to provide 8 channels of appropriately DSP'd high end audio is probably not practical either. 

 

But it's not that far off. So I wouldn't confidently predict this will never ever happen. Would the recording industry ever get behind it? Don't know about that either, but if it becomes practically affordable enough, there might be interest. Again, I wouldn't be able to say "never" with confidence - that's a long time.

 

A pair of front uppers and one of front lowers might be a more realistic option.

 

You could even make them into a single tall column.

 

 

But I insist that it's a pointless pursuit for documental style recording.

 

It would be possible to take advantage of this gimmick through multi-track and post-processing but who would bother, 10% of the classical music audiophile community?

[semente]

2 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

It may be to you and that's fine. IMO it's not superfluous, but it is hardly the most important characteristic that contributes to my enjoyment of music.

 

I'd say that it's superfluous to any music lover who isn't an audiophile.

But I am inclined to agree that most audiophiles are hung up on 3Dness.

[Allan F]

23 minutes ago, semente said:

I'd say that it's superfluous to any music lover who isn't an audiophile.

 

I think it may be more of a case of them not being conscious of it, as opposed to it being superfluous. In which case they couldn't possibly obsess over it.

[Jud]

2 hours ago, semente said:

 

I'd say that it's superfluous to any music lover who isn't an audiophile.

But I am inclined to agree that most audiophiles are hung up on 3Dness.

 

In 1968 when I bought my first stereo system with money from delivering newspapers, my parents and younger brother and sister weren't fascinated with The Beatles or Cream, but rather with a record that simulated listening to a parade as marching bands passed by. None of them were or are audiophiles.

[Jud]

2 hours ago, semente said:

 

But I insist that it's a pointless pursuit for documental style recording.

 

You insist, eh? Ricardo, you're going to have a problem getting to the 50,000+ purchasers of the Vandersteen 2 series to give them your opinion, and that's just a start.

 

But Santa manages, so.... 😉

[lucretius]

delete

[semente]

10 hours ago, Jud said:

 

In 1968 when I bought my first stereo system with money from delivering newspapers, my parents and younger brother and sister weren't fascinated with The Beatles or Cream, but rather with a record that simulated listening to a parade as marching bands passed by. None of them were or are audiophiles.

That only attests for their conservative taste in music. 😋

[semente]

10 hours ago, Jud said:

 

You insist, eh? Ricardo, you're going to have a problem getting to the 50,000+ purchasers of the Vandersteen 2 series to give them your opinion, and that's just a start.

 

But Santa manages, so.... 😉

 

Jud, I listen regularly to live classical music and I can assure you that if I close my eyes neither the soundstage is as defined as in multi-track recordings nor any significant height difference is perceived.

 

Do note that I mentioned documental style recording. Studio-produced music is another matter.

But why would labels pay more for producing pop-rock with height information for a tiny number of audiophiles? Why would studios invest on more equipment?

And would would be the point if when you go to a gig or a jazz club the musicians are spread in front or the listener over a horizontal stage?

 

This is gimmick to the nth degree...

[semente]

12 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

I think it may be more of a case of them not being conscious of it, as opposed to it being superfluous. In which case they couldn't possibly obsess over it.

 

They just don't care.

[STC]

14 hours ago, Jud said:

Don't know that we'd need an "omni sphere." Might be able to do with 8 speakers at the corners of a cube.

Even your standard 5.1 setup using Auddssey is time aligned and they actually form a circular arrangement. It will be time consuming to place the speakers in ordinary room and time align them so a sphere would come in handy without the need to take measurements. You can form a hemispherical or a cubic soundfield by manipulating the time of each speakers signal. Concert halls are usually boxy so in a way artificial ambiance can be more accurate for perfect ambiance. 

[Jud]

51 minutes ago, semente said:

 

They just don't care.

 

I don't quite understand why you would care so much that others shouldn't. One physical dimension only should be important, and not the other two?

[semente]

Just now, Jud said:

 

I don't quite understand why you would care so much that others shouldn't. One physical dimension only should be important, and not the other two?

 

My sole argument is that you don't perceive that dimension when listening live, except maybe in a few opera performances. I'm not just contradicting you.

Imagine yourself in the audience. If two sound sources are 25 metres away and distance vertically 5 metres the angle is minimal.

 

It may on the other hand be useful for home cinema.

[semente]

18 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

I don't quite understand why you would care so much that others shouldn't. One physical dimension only should be important, and not the other two?

I don't understand either. But whilst none of my friends or family are audiophiles several are music lovers.

They think I'm nuts for having no TV in the sitting room but some very large (for them) speakers taking such prominent space and for the rigidity of a listening spot and for even caring or spending so much on a system. They actually prefer the "in your face" sound of a Bluetooth speaker and are happy listening to YouTube...

 

My former neighbour who is an advanced classical amateur and often a page-turner for Pizarro, has 2 grand pianos and several thousand CDs yet now only listens to lossy-compressed Apple downloads over two small speakers that aren't even at the same height.

[StephenJK]

On 12/22/2019 at 5:02 PM, mansr said:

No, but when I play a recording, I can't see the performers.

Are you saying that a developed soundstage will only have a horizontal component? I would expect that a soundstage would have three dimensions. 

[Jud]

1 hour ago, semente said:

 

My sole argument is that you don't perceive that dimension when listening live, except maybe in a few opera performances.

 

Pink Floyd's live performances usually involved sound coming from multiple directions, much to the delight of the audience. But perhaps they only appealed to a small segment of audiophiles and the general music listening public?

[mansr]

48 minutes ago, SJK said:

Are you saying that a developed soundstage will only have a horizontal component? I would expect that a soundstage would have three dimensions. 

I'm saying that stereo recording doesn't capture height information, and neither does stereo playback reproduce it. What you or anyone else expects is neither here nor there.

[semente]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

Pink Floyd's live performances usually involved sound coming from multiple directions, much to the delight of the audience. But perhaps they only appealed to a small segment of audiophiles and the general music listening public?

I was referring to classical music. Never watched Pink Floyd live but those gigs I went to had all sound coming from the sides of the stage, perhaps from the center as well in football stadiums, I can't recall.

[mansr]

29 minutes ago, semente said:

I was referring to classical music. Never watched Pink Floyd live but those gigs I went to had all sound coming from the sides of the stage, perhaps from the center as well in football stadiums, I can't recall.

Pink Floyd did put speakers in unusual locations around the venues, or so I've read. Some of their albums are available in surround mixes, which IMO works well. I guess it's no accident that Roger Waters later dabbled with QSound.

[Jud]

54 minutes ago, mansr said:

I'm saying that stereo recording doesn't capture height information, and neither does stereo playback reproduce it. What you or anyone else expects is neither here nor there.

 

It is correct that height *information* is not recorded or reproduced. Nevertheless, it's well known that a recording can provide an *impression* of height (and depth). See https://theproaudiofiles.com/width-height-depth-in-a-mix/

 

The impression of height, you may (correctly) say, is a false one, a kind of distortion. That's true. Why then should anyone have an objection to including correct, accurate height information in recordings?

[Jud]

9 minutes ago, mansr said:

Pink Floyd did put speakers in unusual locations around the venues, or so I've read. Some of their albums are available in surround mixes, which IMO works well. I guess it's no accident that Roger Waters later dabbled with QSound.

 

Unusual in the sense that other groups didn't, yes. Well integrated with the show visuals, as with Waters' shows later. (Saw Pink Floyd live, but not Waters.)

 

It's entertainment.