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Perception of vertically separated sound sources in the median plane

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57 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

so... can stereo do height???

 

Indeed it can, though I have zero interest in playing with that sort of thing - I mentioned in a post some months back, that a clip posted by John, I think, created a very strong illusion of a vertical separation of the backing, from the vocal - on my laptop speakers, 😝. There was a processed version of that track to compare with, and the latter had almost completely lost the ability to convey that suggestion - so, the mind uses clues in the fine detail to build a sense of the organising of the sound; but muck around with that fine detail, and the clues may be lost ...


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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1 hour ago, mansr said:

A recording with a dummy head could possibly pull it off to some extent, but I have personally never heard a convincing example.

Only with headphones in my experience. Perhaps.

 

I have a few dummy head recordings and can't perceive height with my speakers.

Must try with headphones, just bought a reasonably decent pair.


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

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I perceive an illusion of height with my speakers. I’ve read some online explanations of how it’s done, but don’t recall precisely. I think it takes advantage of what mansr mentioned with regard to higher pitched sounds, plus positioning of the drivers. This seems pretty consistent with Vandersteen owners.


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> wi-fi to router -> EtherREGEN -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> USPCB -> Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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On 12/21/2019 at 6:18 AM, semente said:

Interesting research paper (free download):

 

Perception of vertically separated sound sources in the median plane

https://aaltodoc.aalto.fi/handle/123456789/29103

 

Abstract:

The ability of human listeners to segregate two sound sources was examined by conducting an experiment when the sources are concurrently presented from different directions in the median plane. A high-pass filtered pink noise was utilized as a sound stimulus in a free-field condition and presented as either a pair of incoherent sound sources or a single-source. Subjects responded whether they perceived sound from one or two directions. Listening tests were conducted with different directions and separation angles of sound sources. These tests consisted of two sessions: a monaural session when only the right ear was made audible, and a binaural session when both ears were audible. The results indicated that the percentage of responding "two directions" for pairwise stimuli exceeded 50% above 33.75 deg. separation angle and reached above 70% at 67.5 deg. separation for both sessions. However, the perceived separation showed weak correlation to the degree of separation although it increased in the binaural session. The ability to discriminate pairwise stimuli to each of two corresponding sound sources showed high statistical significance. The difference between a monaural hearing and binaural hearing was not statistically significant for the segregation of sound sources in the median plane.
 
Permanent link to this item:  http://urn.fi/URN:NBN:fi:aalto-201712187901

 

I could see that vertical location of sound may be beneficial to videos (airplanes, etc.) but of what value is it in the presentation of music?

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9 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

I could see that vertical location of sound may be beneficial to videos (airplanes, etc.) but of what value is it in the presentation of music?

 

When you see a choir performing live for Beethoven's Ninth, are all choir members standing on the floor?


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> wi-fi to router -> EtherREGEN -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> USPCB -> Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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7 minutes ago, Jud said:

When you see a choir performing live for Beethoven's Ninth, are all choir members standing on the floor?

No, but when I play a recording, I can't see the performers.

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2 hours ago, mitchco said:

This is a fun test if you have not tried it already: https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php

 

Looks interesting. On a slightly different note, I was listening to a Roger Waters track last night, and some of the music sounded as if it was coming from behind me to the right. I don't have a solid wall behind me (a kitchen island about 10 feet back, kitchen cabinets and counters about 10 feet further back), and only the two stereo speakers.


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> wi-fi to router -> EtherREGEN -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> USPCB -> Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Just now, Jud said:

Looks interesting. On a slightly different note, I was listening to a Roger Waters track last night, and some of the music sounded as if it was coming from behind me to the right. I don't have a solid wall behind me (a kitchen island about 10 feet back, kitchen cabinets and counters about 10 feet further back), and only the two stereo speakers.

That's QSound processing.

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3 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Looks interesting. On a slightly different note, I was listening to a Roger Waters track last night, and some of the music sounded as if it was coming from behind me to the right. I don't have a solid wall behind me (a kitchen island about 10 feet back, kitchen cabinets and counters about 10 feet further back), and only the two stereo speakers.

 Here is another interesting one which should fill most of the listening area with sound

 https://www.dropbox.com/s/xniy20tsoftwqhg/01 Ascent%2C Zarathustra.wav?dl=0


How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

 

PROFILE UPDATED 26-12-2019

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1 minute ago, mansr said:

No, but when I play a recording, I can't see the performers.

 

If you only wish to hear what you can see when you are not at the performance, I believe there is an opportunity for you to make a considerable savings on audio equipment.


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> wi-fi to router -> EtherREGEN -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> USPCB -> Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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28 minutes ago, mansr said:

That's QSound processing.


Yes. Amazing what can be done.


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> wi-fi to router -> EtherREGEN -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> USPCB -> Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

When you see a choir performing live for Beethoven's Ninth, are all choir members standing on the floor?

I've only listened to the 9th live but I've listened to other orchestral work with choir like Rachmaninoff's The Bells or Prokofiev's Aleksandr Nevsky and I can't say that I perceived any height difference between the front of the orchestra and the top tier of the choir.

 

I think that the reproduction of vertical location is trivial.


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

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Just now, semente said:

I've only listened to the 9th live but I've listened to other orchestral work with choir like Rachmaninoff's The Bells or Prokofiev's Aleksandr Nevsky and I can't say that I perceived any height difference between the front of the orchestra and the top tier of the choir.

 

I think that the reproduction of vertical location is trivial.

 

Many people felt the same about horizontal location when stereo was in its infancy.


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> wi-fi to router -> EtherREGEN -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> USPCB -> Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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1 hour ago, mansr said:

No, but when I play a recording, I can't see the performers.

 

For those who can't live without the visual aspect there's always video.


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

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1 minute ago, semente said:

 

For those who can't live without the visual aspect there's always video.

 

I think a recreation as closely as possible of all aspects of the audio from either the live performance or the studio creation is a worthy goal. Certainly I have no argument with anyone who is perfectly happy with something else.


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> wi-fi to router -> EtherREGEN -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> USPCB -> Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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1 minute ago, Jud said:

 

Many people felt the same about horizontal location when stereo was in its infancy.

 

A jazz ensemble, a choir, an orchestra expands, all expand horizontally in front of the listener over a horizontal stage.

 

Keep it simple.


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

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1 minute ago, Jud said:

 

I think a recreation as closely as possible of all aspects of the audio from either the live performance or the studio creation is a worthy goal. Certainly I have no argument with anyone who is perfectly happy with something else.

 

Then we are back to the omni array of mics and the onmi sphere of speakers with the listener sitting inside.

 

This creates so many obstacles that it'll never happen at a domestic level.

 

I see many audiophiles obsessing about soundstage but soundstage is superfluous in the grand scheme of music enjoyment.

 

Music is sound.


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

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27 minutes ago, semente said:

 

 

I see many audiophiles obsessing about soundstage but soundstage is superfluous in the grand scheme of music enjoyment.

 

Music is sound.

 

Most assuredly so. All this technical hoopla is trying, desperately, to 'con' the listening mind - but it's so primitive, and doesn't circumvent the flaws in the SQ which give the game away - a highly effective solution is incredibly simple, at its heart; just deliver the sound with minimal distortion and the brain does the rest, all the poor quality conjuring tricks, which the ear/brain can quickly see through as soon as the material changes a bit, always die rapidly - they serve as gimmicks only, and the public will tire of them quickly.


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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53 minutes ago, semente said:

soundstage is superfluous in the grand scheme of music enjoyment.

 

As I said, I have no argument with anyone for whom that might be the case.


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> wi-fi to router -> EtherREGEN -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> USPCB -> Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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