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Perception of vertically separated sound sources in the median plane


semente

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I perceive an illusion of height with my speakers. I’ve read some online explanations of how it’s done, but don’t recall precisely. I think it takes advantage of what mansr mentioned with regard to higher pitched sounds, plus positioning of the drivers. This seems pretty consistent with Vandersteen owners.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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9 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

I could see that vertical location of sound may be beneficial to videos (airplanes, etc.) but of what value is it in the presentation of music?

 

When you see a choir performing live for Beethoven's Ninth, are all choir members standing on the floor?

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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2 hours ago, mitchco said:

This is a fun test if you have not tried it already: https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php

 

Looks interesting. On a slightly different note, I was listening to a Roger Waters track last night, and some of the music sounded as if it was coming from behind me to the right. I don't have a solid wall behind me (a kitchen island about 10 feet back, kitchen cabinets and counters about 10 feet further back), and only the two stereo speakers.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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1 minute ago, mansr said:

No, but when I play a recording, I can't see the performers.

 

If you only wish to hear what you can see when you are not at the performance, I believe there is an opportunity for you to make a considerable savings on audio equipment.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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28 minutes ago, mansr said:

That's QSound processing.


Yes. Amazing what can be done.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Just now, semente said:

I've only listened to the 9th live but I've listened to other orchestral work with choir like Rachmaninoff's The Bells or Prokofiev's Aleksandr Nevsky and I can't say that I perceived any height difference between the front of the orchestra and the top tier of the choir.

 

I think that the reproduction of vertical location is trivial.

 

Many people felt the same about horizontal location when stereo was in its infancy.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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1 minute ago, semente said:

 

For those who can't live without the visual aspect there's always video.

 

I think a recreation as closely as possible of all aspects of the audio from either the live performance or the studio creation is a worthy goal. Certainly I have no argument with anyone who is perfectly happy with something else.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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53 minutes ago, semente said:

soundstage is superfluous in the grand scheme of music enjoyment.

 

As I said, I have no argument with anyone for whom that might be the case.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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22 hours ago, semente said:

 

Then we are back to the omni array of mics and the onmi sphere of speakers with the listener sitting inside.

 

This creates so many obstacles that it'll never happen at a domestic level.

 

Don't know that we'd need an "omni sphere." Might be able to do with 8 speakers at the corners of a cube. Agreed that 8 speakers with acceptable high end performance aren't something ordinarily affordable for most households right now. And right now, the computer power to provide 8 channels of appropriately DSP'd high end audio is probably not practical either. 

 

But it's not that far off. So I wouldn't confidently predict this will never ever happen. Would the recording industry ever get behind it? Don't know about that either, but if it becomes practically affordable enough, there might be interest. Again, I wouldn't be able to say "never" with confidence - that's a long time.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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2 hours ago, semente said:

 

I'd say that it's superfluous to any music lover who isn't an audiophile.

But I am inclined to agree that most audiophiles are hung up on 3Dness.

 

In 1968 when I bought my first stereo system with money from delivering newspapers, my parents and younger brother and sister weren't fascinated with The Beatles or Cream, but rather with a record that simulated listening to a parade as marching bands passed by. None of them were or are audiophiles.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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2 hours ago, semente said:

 

But I insist that it's a pointless pursuit for documental style recording.

 

You insist, eh? Ricardo, you're going to have a problem getting to the 50,000+ purchasers of the Vandersteen 2 series to give them your opinion, and that's just a start.

 

But Santa manages, so.... 😉

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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51 minutes ago, semente said:

 

They just don't care.

 

I don't quite understand why you would care so much that others shouldn't. One physical dimension only should be important, and not the other two?

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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1 hour ago, semente said:

 

My sole argument is that you don't perceive that dimension when listening live, except maybe in a few opera performances.

 

Pink Floyd's live performances usually involved sound coming from multiple directions, much to the delight of the audience. But perhaps they only appealed to a small segment of audiophiles and the general music listening public?

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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54 minutes ago, mansr said:

I'm saying that stereo recording doesn't capture height information, and neither does stereo playback reproduce it. What you or anyone else expects is neither here nor there.

 

It is correct that height *information* is not recorded or reproduced. Nevertheless, it's well known that a recording can provide an *impression* of height (and depth). See https://theproaudiofiles.com/width-height-depth-in-a-mix/

 

The impression of height, you may (correctly) say, is a false one, a kind of distortion. That's true. Why then should anyone have an objection to including correct, accurate height information in recordings?

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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9 minutes ago, mansr said:

Pink Floyd did put speakers in unusual locations around the venues, or so I've read. Some of their albums are available in surround mixes, which IMO works well. I guess it's no accident that Roger Waters later dabbled with QSound.

 

Unusual in the sense that other groups didn't, yes. Well integrated with the show visuals, as with Waters' shows later. (Saw Pink Floyd live, but not Waters.)

 

It's entertainment.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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14 minutes ago, mansr said:

I’m not objecting to the recording and reproduction of height information. However, with currently available methods, I do not find the expense and inconvenience justified.


Agreed. I said as much earlier in the thread. I’m curious to see whether progress will be made along these lines in the future. There are helicopter and airplane sounds on Pink Floyd albums (and on The Beatles’ “Back in the USSR” from 1968, for that matter). Some artists might think it would be nice to have those sorts of sounds coming from overhead. (Or perhaps the “bird” flute part in Peter and the Wolf.)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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